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Where will the Sedins rank among all-time Swedish players?

View Poll Results: Where will the Sedins finish among Swedish Forwards?
#1/#2 2 0.99%
#2/#3 3 1.49%
Both Top 5 58 28.71%
Both Top 10 116 57.43%
Not Top 10 23 11.39%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-16-2013, 07:10 PM
  #126
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
You must be another one of those "your perception better not be off by one iota or else you aren't allowed to have an opinion" guys.
No I'm one of those get it right type of guys, what you threw out there in describing Alfie and Daniel was wrong plain and simple.

Either you learn from your mistake or get snotty about it, it's your call.

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02-16-2013, 07:15 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

what does that have to do with anything, so Zetts plays with HHOF locks and another stud named dats, who no doubt is worse than both Sedins right?
.
Probably has a little something to do with the shiny thing that holds the "Zetterberg" name.

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02-16-2013, 07:21 PM
  #128
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Lidstrom
Forsberg
Salming
Sundin
Sedin
Sedin

#5/6, possibly 6/7 if Karlsson recovers 100% and is a perennial Norris winner

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02-16-2013, 07:43 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Probably has a little something to do with the shiny thing that holds the "Zetterberg" name.
So what?

Having a SC or not doesn't change the difference in Zetts playoff performance compared to the Sedins, it's pretty easy to see the best player there.

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02-16-2013, 08:32 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Maybe you could elaborate?
Probably the best players in Canucks history (Aside from Bure) Great in the community, great leaders, who show nothing but respect and class to those around them even bitter rivals. They never complain, never make a fuss, they are committed to getting better, loaded with Character.

They consistently carry the offense for the Canucks and have since the last lockout. People who say they aren't tough must think toughness is how many punches you cant throw in the scrums after the whistle, because these guys consistently go out against top shutdown pairs, the biggest and best defensemen of the other teams and they always win the battles in the corners, and always fight through it and always produce.

And really there have never been players like them before in NHL history. HHOFers IMO.

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02-16-2013, 10:30 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
So what?

Having a SC or not doesn't change the difference in Zetts playoff performance compared to the Sedins, it's pretty easy to see the best player there.
I'm not trying to say the Sedins dominate Zetterberg in every single facet of being a hockey player. Not at all. Zetterberg is more rounded and has a better playoff track record. The Sedins have had a higher offensive peak and have been significantly better at making the players around them better.

Henrik Sedin also has a positive mark for captaincy so far. It's far to early to say for Zetterberg, so it's not that he has a negative mark, he just hasn't had a chance to have that help his case yet.

I'll admit you've made me realize that Zetterberg may be closer than I originally though. However I still take either Sedin over him. All fantastic players though.

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02-16-2013, 11:36 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Probably the best players in Canucks history (Aside from Bure) Great in the community, great leaders, who show nothing but respect and class to those around them even bitter rivals. They never complain, never make a fuss, they are committed to getting better, loaded with Character.

They consistently carry the offense for the Canucks and have since the last lockout. People who say they aren't tough must think toughness is how many punches you cant throw in the scrums after the whistle, because these guys consistently go out against top shutdown pairs, the biggest and best defensemen of the other teams and they always win the battles in the corners, and always fight through it and always produce.

And really there have never been players like them before in NHL history. HHOFers IMO.
They are unique players but the "always" that you list above simply isn't true. Also I think maybe you are looking at them at their absolute best and not taking their entire careers into context here.

The thread title is where they rank among all Swedish players all time so club play (both NHL and Sweden count), international play, and playoffs too.

Looking at the poll results either many people think too little of Swedish players or too much of the Sedins (and are overlooking serious less than average points in their resumes).

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02-16-2013, 11:47 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I'm not trying to say the Sedins dominate Zetterberg in every single facet of being a hockey player. Not at all. Zetterberg is more rounded and has a better playoff track record. The Sedins have had a higher offensive peak and have been significantly better at making the players around them better.

Henrik Sedin also has a positive mark for captaincy so far. It's far to early to say for Zetterberg, so it's not that he has a negative mark, he just hasn't had a chance to have that help his case yet.

I'll admit you've made me realize that Zetterberg may be closer than I originally though. However I still take either Sedin over him. All fantastic players though.
I'll take Zetts 8 days a week over the sedins and looking at this year so far he seems to be aging better.

But to the bold part, this is strange because I have watched the Sedins their entire career and for most of it they have been looking for a player to play with them since Anson Carter left for free agency. If anything, in their entire career, they have been at best average in making players around them better and probably less than that.

Also guys that didn't play as long in the NHL like Kent Nilsson, Mats Naslund and many others are getting over looked here IMO.

It's not just an NHL peak thing, which for the Sedins has been quite short really, it's playoffs, and international play as well.

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02-16-2013, 11:55 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
They are unique players but the "always" that you list above simply isn't true. Also I think maybe you are looking at them at their absolute best and not taking their entire careers into context here.

The thread title is where they rank among all Swedish players all time so club play (both NHL and Sweden count), international play, and playoffs too.

Looking at the poll results either many people think too little of Swedish players or too much of the Sedins (and are overlooking serious less than average points in their resumes).
I never said anything about Sweden.

I'm saying as players and people in the league they are truly unappreciated.

They have been key members on the Swedish Olympic teams, including the one that won gold in 06. Aside from that, they have never really been avaliable for international events.

People forget they played on the mens World Championship team as 18 years olds, and that they were stars in Modo.

And you say I forgot about there entire careers, but to me there early struggles only show there heart and character. They didn't put up great stats. But they were really criticized and treated strictly by Crow. Then never gave up, never went away to Sweden.

They worked hard on there game, and broke out as elite players 25 years old. Usually the age players reach there prime, no?

Since then they have been PPG players in this league and have consistently carried the Canucks scoring.

People say they aren't great playoff players. But I beg to differ in a big way. They were near PPG players in our 2011 run, (Daniel had 20 in 25, Henrik had 22 in 25) And the prior 2 playoff years (10 and 09) They were both PPG or above PPG.

They are tough, they are responsible defensively, they are extremely loyal, extremely hard workers, loaded with character, leaders, and everyone who has played with them says they are the best people they have ever played with.

Truly unappreciated. Can't wait to see 22 and 33 hanging in the rafters one day, aswell as watch with with pride when I see them inducted into the HHOF.

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02-16-2013, 11:58 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I never said anything about Sweden.

I'm saying as players and people in the league they are truly unappreciated.

They have been key members on the Swedish Olympic teams, including the one that won gold in 06. Aside from that, they have never really been avaliable for international events.

People forget they played on the mens World Championship team as 18 years olds, and that they were stars in Modo.

And you say I forgot about there entire careers, but to me there early struggles only show there heart and character. They didn't put up great stats. But they were really criticized and treated strictly by Crow. Then never gave up, never went away to Sweden.

They worked hard on there game, and broke out as elite players 25 years old. Usually the age players reach there prime, no?

Since then they have been PPG players in this league and have consistently carried the Canucks scoring.

People say they aren't great playoff players. But I beg to differ in a big way. They were near PPG players in our 2011 run, (Daniel had 20 in 25, Henrik had 22 in 25) And the prior 2 playoff years (10 and 09) They were both PPG or above PPG.

They are tough, they are responsible defensively, they are extremely loyal, extremely hard workers, loaded with character, leaders, and everyone who has played with them says they are the best people they have ever played with.

Truly unappreciated. Can't wait to see 22 and 33 hanging in the rafters one day, aswell as watch with with pride when I see them inducted into the HHOF.
Don't argue with hardvan123. He hates Vancouver Canucks. It's quite obvious in the Schroeder vs MPS thread.

wow... hardvan123 really really really hates the Canucks. Unreal. Looking at the thread he's just not giving up on bashing Vancouver or just dis crediting anything the Sedins have accomplished. He's entitled to his oppinon, but it's just unreal Based on hi standards J.S Gigure is better then Carey Price, as Gigure has a STanley cup ring, and a Conn Smythe.

Also some people seem to forget about they both won an art ross trophy. The only brothers in NHL history to pull this off.


Last edited by lawrence: 02-17-2013 at 12:05 AM.
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02-17-2013, 12:09 AM
  #136
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Don't argue with hardvan123. He hates Vancouver Canucks. It's quite obvious in the Schroeder vs MPS thread.

wow... hardvan123 really really really hates the Canucks. Unreal. Looking at the thread he's just not giving up on bashing Vancouver or just dis crediting anything the Sedins have accomplished. He's entitled to his oppinon, but it's just unreal Based on hi standards J.S Gigure is better then Carey Price, as Gigure has a STanley cup ring, and a Conn Smythe.

Also some people seem to forget about they both won an art ross trophy. The only brothers in NHL history to pull this off.
I know

Truly unappreciated. If these guys were doing this in Toronto they would be in the top 5 category no questions asked.

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02-17-2013, 12:09 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by lawrence View Post
Don't argue with hardvan123. He hates Vancouver Canucks. It's quite obvious in the Schroeder vs MPS thread.
Man people throw hate out there way too often. I'm a fan of the Canucks but I'm a bigger fan of hockey and try to look at things objectively as possible. Too many people on these boards are like the "typical (put your home team here) fans" when asked each year which team will win the SC they will say their own, basically because they are fans of that team.

Look blind emotion like that is great, it's why the Owners of the Canucks rake in the huge dough" but it's no replacement for reasoned thought and logic on here either.

Quote:
Also some people seem to forget about they both won an art ross trophy. The only brothers in NHL history to pull this off.
So that's a great trivia answer as so few brother pairs have ever played in the NHL.

Just for fun the Hull, Richard and Howe families are held in higher regard but both our trivial points really have nothing to do with the topic at hand do they?

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02-17-2013, 12:17 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I'll take Zetts 8 days a week over the sedins and looking at this year so far he seems to be aging better.

But to the bold part, this is strange because I have watched the Sedins their entire career and for most of it they have been looking for a player to play with them since Anson Carter left for free agency. If anything, in their entire career, they have been at best average in making players around them better and probably less than that.

Also guys that didn't play as long in the NHL like Kent Nilsson, Mats Naslund and many others are getting over looked here IMO.

It's not just an NHL peak thing, which for the Sedins has been quite short really, it's playoffs, and international play as well.
Players who set careers highs in goals and/or points while playing with the Sedins for a significant time:
Anson Carter (05/06)
Taylor Pyatt (06/07)
Alex Burrows (08/09)
Alex Burrows (09/10)
Mikael Samuelsson (09/10) (Spent the year the on Sedins PP unit)
Ryan Kesler (10/11) (Spent the year on the Sedins PP unit)
Zack Kassian (12/13) (admittedly very small sample size)

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02-17-2013, 12:54 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
I never said anything about Sweden.

I'm saying as players and people in the league they are truly unappreciated.

They have been key members on the Swedish Olympic teams, including the one that won gold in 06. Aside from that, they have never really been avaliable for international events.
Ask Swedish fans how key the Sedins were to that 06 team, I doubt many would put them on the top 5 players or keys to that Gold Medal.

Daniel has played in 2 Olympics with a 12-2-5-7 line, Hank 12-3-3-6

Quote:
People forget they played on the mens World Championship team as 18 years olds, and that they were stars in Modo.
Yes they did and other players have played internationally at 18 and have done a lot better as well, not sure what your point is here.

As to the Sedins being stars while at Modo, sure Hank was 2nd in assists and 6th in points in 00 in the Swedish elite league (Daniel was 1 goal and 2 points out of the top 10 in each category) but most of the best Swedish players were in the NHL so what does all of that really mean?

[QUOTE]And you say I forgot about there entire careers, but to me there early struggles only show there heart and character. They didn't put up great stats. But they were really criticized and treated strictly by Crow. Then never gave up, never went away to Sweden.[QUOTE]

It's great that they stuck with it but the bottom line is that their line was 43,32,31 and 54 points in their 1st four years (Daniel) and 29,36,39 and 42 for Hank.

This slow start has to offset their peak somewhat compared to other players who hit their stride in their 1st, 2nd or 3rd seasons.

Quote:
They worked hard on there game, and broke out as elite players 25 years old. Usually the age players reach there prime, no?
At 25 they had 75 and 71 points on the Canucks 2nd line in 06, calling them elite at this point is over rating them. The Canucks didn't make the playoffs that year BTW.

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Since then they have been PPG players in this league and have consistently carried the Canucks scoring.
This is true, from 07-12 they are 5th and 8th in points while Hank is 1st in assists and Daniel 9th in goals

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Quote:
People say they aren't great playoff players. But I beg to differ in a big way. They were near PPG players in our 2011 run, (Daniel had 20 in 25, Henrik had 22 in 25) And the prior 2 playoff years (10 and 09) They were both PPG or above PPG.
That's all great and fine but in 07 when the Canucks are led by the Sedins (and they are now elite according to you) they were horrible in the playoffs with team leading minus 5 and minus 8 marks to go with a combined line of 24-4-5-9.

In 08 the "elite Sedins" don't lead the Canucks into the playoffs and their regular season production actually dips a bit.

In 09 like you state they are identically PPG players both in the regular season and playoffs. They are 28 now and this is their 1st good to strong playoff.

Yes in 10 they had better than PPG in the playoffs but they feasted on the LA Kings in the 1st round and were less than average in the 2nd round against the Black Hawks but to be fair Hank did better, here are their lines in 6 games against both teams

Hank 6-1-7-8 6-2-4-6
Daniel 6-4-6-10 6-1-3-4

Even in 11 when they once again lead the Canucks in playoff scoring they had by far and away the worst plus minus of any of the forwards with a minus 9 and minus 11 so there is a troubling stat there.

Quote:
They are tough, they are responsible defensively, they are extremely loyal, extremely hard workers, loaded with character, leaders, and everyone who has played with them says they are the best people they have ever played with.

Truly unappreciated. Can't wait to see 22 and 33 hanging in the rafters one day, aswell as watch with with pride when I see them inducted into the HHOF.
Sure they are great guys and very classy but heck almost all Swedish NHLers are.

Your argument that they are under appreciated doesn't really hold a lot of water when you actually look deeply into their careers IMO.


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02-17-2013, 01:07 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Players who set careers highs in goals and/or points while playing with the Sedins for a significant time:
Anson Carter (05/06)
Taylor Pyatt (06/07)
Alex Burrows (08/09)
Alex Burrows (09/10)
Mikael Samuelsson (09/10) (Spent the year the on Sedins PP unit)
Ryan Kesler (10/11) (Spent the year on the Sedins PP unit)
Zack Kassian (12/13) (admittedly very small sample size)
I'm sure you can trot that kind of stuff out for any good grouping of 2 players and you forgot Erhoff and Trent Klatt.

I'm pretty sure that if you look at all of the players totals that you indicate above that it would less than average than the players that all the over top 2 groupings on a line in the NHL elevated their 3rd line mate.

Taylor Pyatt for instance has a 76-23-14-37 line in 06/07, with 9 goals on the PP.

I'm really not positive that the above list is really helping your case here.

The point of the matter is that after Carter left the Canucks were continually looking for a LW to play with the Sedins, everyone in Vancouver who followed the Canucks is pretty aware of that.

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02-17-2013, 01:16 AM
  #141
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Not top five for me.

Probably in the top 10.

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02-17-2013, 01:35 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I'm sure you can trot that kind of stuff out for any good grouping of 2 players and you forgot Erhoff and Trent Klatt.

I'm pretty sure that if you look at all of the players totals that you indicate above that it would less than average than the players that all the over top 2 groupings on a line in the NHL elevated their 3rd line mate.

Taylor Pyatt for instance has a 76-23-14-37 line in 06/07, with 9 goals on the PP.

I'm really not positive that the above list is really helping your case here.

The point of the matter is that after Carter left the Canucks were continually looking for a LW to play with the Sedins, everyone in Vancouver who followed the Canucks is pretty aware of that.
That isn't an impressive stat line by any stretch, but for Taylor Pyatt that is way above anything he could/should be able to do with average linemates.

After Carter left, the Canucks were looking for the best possible linemate for the Sedins. Pyatt had a career year thanks to the Sedins, but maxed out at under 25 goals, not enough for a top line winger. Burrows was the next player to get significant time there. The Canucks have stopped looking for a winger since then. They've experimented with different players, to shake things up or get the team/offence out of a lull, but that's it.

Not sure what your point is. The Sedins can't be better than Zetterberg because between 2006 and 2009 the GM was actively seeking a consistent linemate for them?

Show my any other current player that has rotating linemates for multiple years, each of which having career years.

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02-17-2013, 03:22 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Ask Swedish fans how key the Sedins were to that 06 team, I doubt many would put them on the top 5 players or keys to that Gold Medal.

Daniel has played in 2 Olympics with a 12-2-5-7 line, Hank 12-3-3-6

Yes they did and other players have played internationally at 18 and have done a lot better as well, not sure what your point is here.

As to the Sedins being stars while at Modo, sure Hank was 2nd in assists and 6th in points in 00 in the Swedish elite league (Daniel was 1 goal and 2 points out of the top 10 in each category) but most of the best Swedish players were in the NHL so what does all of that really mean?
It means that they have done just as much playing in sweden prior to coming here as the others have. So that's not an advantage like some think it is.

Quote:
It's great that they stuck with it but the bottom line is that their line was 43,32,31 and 54 points in their 1st four years (Daniel) and 29,36,39 and 42 for Hank.

This slow start has to offset their peak somewhat compared to other players who hit their stride in their 1st, 2nd or 3rd seasons.
Again, they have turned into stars, players come at it at there own pace, this just shows that they had this potential all along. Zetterberg didn't become an elite player until 05/06. Same age as the Sedins. Yet the same "early career" knock isn't used against him.

Quote:
At 25 they had 75 and 71 points on the Canucks 2nd line in 06, calling them elite at this point is over rating them. The Canucks didn't make the playoffs that year BTW.
They had 70+ points on a 2nd line.

Thats elite production. That elite. And yes I am aware the Canucks didn't make the playoffs, I followed the closely all year and the Sedins were one of the only bright lights the entire season.

They broke out as stars that year.

Quote:
This is true, from 07-12 they are 5th and 8th in points while Hank is 1st in assists and Daniel 9th in goals
They have been 70+ points players since 05. But they have only had 2 years where both averaged under 80 points in a full season. And even then 70 points isnt too shabby, especially when you consider Zetterberg has had 4 seasons of under 80 points, including 1 under 70. Something the Sedins have never had.

Quote:
That's all great and fine but in 07 when the Canucks are led by the Sedins (and they are now elite according to you) they were horrible in the playoffs with team leading minus 5 and minus 8 marks to go with a combined line of 24-4-5-9.

In 08 the "elite Sedins" don't lead the Canucks into the playoffs and their regular season production actually dips a bit.

In 09 like you state they are identically PPG players both in the regular season and playoffs. They are 28 now and this is their 1st good to strong playoff.

Yes in 10 they had better than PPG in the playoffs but they feasted on the LA Kings in the 1st round and were less than average in the 2nd round against the Black Hawks but to be fair Hank did better, here are their lines in 6 games against both teams

Hank 6-1-7-8 6-2-4-6
Daniel 6-4-6-10 6-1-3-4

Even in 11 when they once again lead the Canucks in playoff scoring they had by far and away the worst plus minus of any of the forwards with a minus 9 and minus 11 so there is a troubling stat there.
In 07 they had a good 1st series against Dallas, then that famous checking line which reaked havoc on everyone in the Ducks playoff run shut them down.

Thats all part of there maturation process.

in 08, they were hardly the reason we missed the playoffs. And there fabulous seasons can attest to that, look at the injuries, especially to the defense, and look at the team as a whole. Once again Sedins are one of the bright lights.

In 09 they broke out as PPG players, even against the Hawks, anything different you have to say is purely wrong. Same as in 10, they produced both years. and they also produced in 2011.

In the finals they were in on like 6 of our 8 goals in the entire series. That's 2 players out of 18.

Quote:
Sure they are great guys and very classy but heck almost all Swedish NHLers are.

Your argument that they are under appreciated doesn't really hold a lot of water when you actually look deeply into their careers IMO.
There is a difference from being great people, and being the best people you have ever played with.

These players have grown, are the hardest workers, dedicated to the team and community, they are tough, the produce for us, they carry this team offensively against top pairs night in and night out and have produced in the playoffs every year since being the absolute go to guys.

There is just no way to completely describe how great of players and people they are. #2 and #3 behind only Trevor in Canucks history as far as I'm concerned.

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