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Old
02-16-2013, 06:58 PM
  #176
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
It's just weird that people are criticizing Thornton and saying he has a big ego when I haven't read anything of the sort since he became a Shark. And then the same people are calling out Marleau as Mr. Innocent and Mr. Team Player when he had that whole debacle with Ron Wilson (whether it was all RW's fault or not, it still happened).



Are we talking about the same Thornton who changed his game from sitting along the half-boards to playing a very good two-way game because he wanted to help the team win?
It just seems like you're basing your argument on a whole lot of nothing.
Not to mention it's a completely different circumstance of "being the man to not being the man". He's been the go-to-guy on the Sharks because he's been the best player on the Sharks. When he gets older, he won't be the best player on the team anymore.
When there are two in conflict, there is ALWAYS blame to both sides. However, in the case of Wilson and what I know, Wilson was beyond the pale. Marleau was at fault for not addressing the issues earlier. There were a lot of other Sharks who had issues with Wilson; if it was only one, the player no matter how good would have had a plane ticket out of town. If you want to go to coaches who have conflicts, look at Arbour. He picked on Potvin, because he know that DP could take it. His way of sending a message to the entire team. Potvin came to understand it.

JT will get on players for not converting chances. Not necessarily ideal. And he is stubborn about changing up his game on the fly. It is telling that he finally approached the coach rather than the coach approaching him. Part of coaching is understanding the game but also understanding when you as a coach can press buttons.

As far as Sharks rebuilding, that was happening around the time of Nolan's departure. They were definitely going to unload Nolan and Rathje. And part of it was monetary in that regard (recall that the team was sold around that time).

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02-16-2013, 07:02 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And how long did it take for Thornton to change that part of his game? And he still hasn't changed with regards to taking more ownership when it comes to shooting the puck. You can't seriously believe that he hasn't been stubborn for certain things. And I have a hard time believing that a guy that has been catered to for a lot over the years with a known difficulty for changing isn't going to have a hard time seeing his role reduced over time with a team.
Why change when nobody is telling you to? RW advocated the play-on-the-halfboard style. There was no reason for Thornton to change his game then. And after the 08-09 season, Thornton went to McLellan to talk about how he should change his game. McLellan didn't force him to change, Thornton willingly asked him.

And saying "He doesn't shoot more so he won't like it when he's not the go-to-guy" is a very poor argument. There is absolutely no correlation between those two points. He's the go-to-guy right now because he's the best player on the team. When he's older and is no longer the best player, there is no reason to believe that he'd still want to be. I don't even think Ovechkin would be that stubborn. There really is no proof of his so-called "ego".

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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
JT will get on players for not converting chances. Not necessarily ideal. And he is stubborn about changing up his game on the fly.
And that could just easily be blamed on the coaches. Maybe no coach is really telling him to shoot more. They may be advocating it, but it might just be a mention-once and then drop it kind of thing. Like I said earlier, there really isn't any proof of Marleau being anymore of a team guy than Thornton.


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02-16-2013, 07:09 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Why change when nobody is telling you to? RW advocated the play-on-the-halfboard style. There was no reason for Thornton to change his game then. And after the 08-09 season, Thornton went to McLellan to talk about how he should change his game. McLellan didn't force him to change, Thornton willingly asked him.

And saying "He doesn't shoot more so he won't like it when he's not the go-to-guy" is a very poor argument. There is absolutely no correlation between those two points. He's the go-to-guy right now because he's the best player on the team. When he's older and is no longer the best player, there is no reason to believe that he'd still want to be. I don't even think Ovechkin would be that stubborn. There really is no proof of his so-called "ego".
RW did not advocate a complete halfboard style power play. He did advocate that Thornton should shoot more like every coach has ever done with him but he's never done it.

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02-16-2013, 07:11 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
RW did not advocate a complete halfboard style power play. He did advocate that Thornton should shoot more like every coach has ever done with him but he's never done it.
Regardless, like I said earlier, those are two completely different points. Just because he doesn't shoot more doesn't mean he won't like it when he's not the go-to-guy. Those aren't similar scenarios at all. You're just reaching there.

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02-16-2013, 07:16 PM
  #180
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I think Thornton not shooting has more to do with where he likes to play than a lack of desire. You aren't going to take a whole lot of shots behind the net or along the side boards. For JT to shoot more he would have to move away from areas where he has been traditionally successful.

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02-16-2013, 07:18 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Regardless, like I said earlier, those are two completely different points. Just because he doesn't shoot more doesn't mean he won't like it when he's not the go-to-guy. Those aren't similar scenarios at all. You're just reaching there.
They're not really that different. It's about how one reacts to change and/or being told to change. If one is averse to it, chances are that they will be when change is needed. Being told to change your game and being told that your role on the team is going to change is similar and a player like Thornton I don't expect to react positively to it.

You want to talk about reaching? Saying that Thornton hasn't ever really been told to shoot when he was coached at one point by Ron Wilson and Mike Keenan. Two guys that have never had a problem telling anyone anything. That's a reach.

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02-16-2013, 07:23 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
They're not really that different. It's about how one reacts to change and/or being told to change. If one is averse to it, chances are that they will be when change is needed. Being told to change your game and being told that your role on the team is going to change is similar and a player like Thornton I don't expect to react positively to it..
Thornton doesn't shoot that much because of his playstyle and where he is positioned on the ice. Changing the way you've been playing your entire career isn't easy to do.
Thornton is the go-to-guy because he's the best player on the Sharks. When he's not the best player on the team anymore, he won't be the go-to-guy anymore. No player will have a problem with that. You aren't asking him to change the way he plays. The only thing changing is his minutes. I doubt there is 1 player in the league so stubborn that he'll want to be the go-to-guy even when he isn't the best player on the team anymore.

They really aren't the same at all...

And if anything, your Keenan point helps mine (though I never outright said no one is telling him to shoot, maybe just no one is advocating it as strongly as we're making it out to be). Keenan coached Boston for 1 season. During that 1 season, Thornton had 37 goals.

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02-16-2013, 07:30 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
They're not really that different. It's about how one reacts to change and/or being told to change. If one is averse to it, chances are that they will be when change is needed. Being told to change your game and being told that your role on the team is going to change is similar and a player like Thornton I don't expect to react positively to it.

You want to talk about reaching? Saying that Thornton hasn't ever really been told to shoot when he was coached at one point by Ron Wilson and Mike Keenan. Two guys that have never had a problem telling anyone anything. That's a reach.
You're focusing way too much on one example in shooting. To speculate that Thornton would be unwilling accept a different role on the team because he doesn't shoot more is silly.

On the contrary, throughout his Sharks career, Thornton has changed his game A LOT. He is a MUCH different player than when he was at the start of his Sharks career, and that is a testament to his willingness to evolve his game

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02-16-2013, 07:33 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Thornton doesn't shoot that much because of his playstyle and where he is positioned on the ice. Changing the way you've been playing your entire career isn't easy to do.
Thornton is the go-to-guy because he's the best player on the Sharks. When he's not the best player on the team anymore, he won't be the go-to-guy anymore. No player will have a problem with that. You aren't asking him to change the way he plays. The only thing changing is his minutes.
They really aren't the same at all...

And if anything, your Keenan point helps mine (though I never outright said no one is telling him to shoot, maybe just no one is advocating it as strongly as we're making it out to be). Keenan coached Boston for 1 season. During that 1 season, Thornton had 37 goals.
Saying no player will have a problem being told they aren't the go-to guy or being told they aren't the best is simply inaccurate. There are very few players that are able to put their ego and pride to the side after being told that by their own team. These guys make a living by playing with something to prove and that kind of thing is not always going to go over well. And when you're Thornton and the offense runs through you handling the puck then being told you aren't the go-to guy anymore is definitely asking him to change his game.

And no, Keenan doesn't help your point because he still didn't shoot the puck that much. We're talking 181 shots that year which is about half a shot per game over his average.

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02-16-2013, 07:36 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
You're focusing way too much on one example in shooting. To speculate that Thornton would be unwilling accept a different role on the team because he doesn't shoot more is silly.

On the contrary, throughout his Sharks career, Thornton has changed his game A LOT. He is a MUCH different player than when he was at the start of his Sharks career, and that is a testament to his willingness to evolve his game
And the change in his game took years to accomplish in which he still exhibits many of the bad habits he's been told to break. Yeah, he's gotten better defensively but his tendencies offensively are still pretty much the same as they ever have been...and they all inevitably lead to a pass. People love to bag on Marleau for not driving the net but they've essentially given up on Thornton doing that.

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02-16-2013, 07:41 PM
  #186
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And the change in his game took years to accomplish in which he still exhibits many of the bad habits he's been told to break. Yeah, he's gotten better defensively but his tendencies offensively are still pretty much the same as they ever have been...and they all inevitably lead to a pass. People love to bag on Marleau for not driving the net but they've essentially given up on Thornton doing that.
Which is a shame because when JT wants to drive to the net its near impossible to stop.

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02-16-2013, 07:42 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Saying no player will have a problem being told they aren't the go-to guy or being told they aren't the best is simply inaccurate. There are very few players that are able to put their ego and pride to the side after being told that by their own team. These guys make a living by playing with something to prove and that kind of thing is not always going to go over well. And when you're Thornton and the offense runs through you handling the puck then being told you aren't the go-to guy anymore is definitely asking him to change his game.
That's when they're skillset is still top-notch. Again, we're talking about a few seasons from now when Thornton is no longer the best player on the team. No matter what you may think of Thornton, no player is that stubborn. No player in the league thinks he's the best on the team when he clearly isn't. And this is the same Thornton that went to McLellan saying he's willingly to do anything to help the team win.
Players like Thornton and Marleau care about proving something, but I like to think they care about winning more. Saying Marleau is such a team player and Thornton has a huge ego is just Marleau bias at it's greatest.

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02-16-2013, 07:43 PM
  #188
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And the change in his game took years to accomplish in which he still exhibits many of the bad habits he's been told to break. Yeah, he's gotten better defensively but his tendencies offensively are still pretty much the same as they ever have been...and they all inevitably lead to a pass. People love to bag on Marleau for not driving the net but they've essentially given up on Thornton doing that.
What does Marleau have to do with anything?

Bottom line is Thornton HAS modified his game over time, which suggests he would be willing to accept a different role. (If we are assuming our in game examples have anything to do with player psychology, which is kind of silly in its own right)

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02-16-2013, 07:45 PM
  #189
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Can we just agree that both players have their faults but that nobody here is actually in the locker room with them so arguing over something that neither party has any concrete evidence about is stupid?

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02-16-2013, 07:45 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
(If we are assuming our in game examples have anything to do with player psychology, which is kind of silly in its own right)
Thank you. They are two completely different points...

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Can we just agree that both players have their faults but that nobody here is actually in the locker room with them so arguing over something that neither party has any concrete evidence about is stupid?
Well yeah. There is no concrete evidence that Thornton has an ego, so I don't know why PF is so adamant that he has a huge one and won't like not being the go-to-guy...

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02-16-2013, 07:49 PM
  #191
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Can we just agree that both players have their faults but that nobody here is actually in the locker room with them so arguing over something that neither party has any concrete evidence about is stupid?
Agreed.

Now lets go back to sulking over this terrible team!

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02-16-2013, 07:51 PM
  #192
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I miss Rob Blake.

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02-16-2013, 07:53 PM
  #193
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Agreed.

Now lets go back to sulking over this terrible team!
Just watch how well the big bodies on Montreal and Philly skate compared to ours. it'll depress you.

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02-16-2013, 07:54 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
What does Marleau have to do with anything?

Bottom line is Thornton HAS modified his game over time, which suggests he would be willing to accept a different role. (If we are assuming our in game examples have anything to do with player psychology, which is kind of silly in its own right)
That's your interpretation of how things have played out. It took a very long time to get the defensive element into Thornton's game but he hasn't changed on what his tendencies are offensively and none of them involve shooting the puck Just because there is one evidence of change doesn't suggest anything. The body of work is more important to me and his body of work does not lend to a willingness to change in my opinion.

What a player does in game that becomes habit and tendency is a part of player psychology. I don't know how that would be deemed as silly.

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Can we just agree that both players have their faults but that nobody here is actually in the locker room with them so arguing over something that neither party has any concrete evidence about is stupid?
I think Thornton has said enough over the years in quotes for anyone to come to their conclusions about it.

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Thank you. They are two completely different points...



Well yeah. There is no concrete evidence that Thornton has an ego, so I don't know why PF is so adamant that he has a huge one and won't like not being the go-to-guy...
And I simply disagree with that.

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02-16-2013, 07:55 PM
  #195
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Just watch how well the big bodies on Montreal and Philly skate compared to ours. it'll depress you.
Hahaha, I actually am watching the game and it does depress me to see how much faster and skilled these teams look.

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02-16-2013, 07:56 PM
  #196
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I think Thornton has said enough over the years in quotes for anyone to come to their conclusions about it.

And I simply disagree with that.
Then I'll go out and say Marleau has a huge ego and won't like it when he's just a third-line player. After all, unlike Thornton (where you're only basing it off of what he's said in a couple interviews), Marleau did have a well-known dispute with a coach.

And I'll just simply disagree with your counterarguments.

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02-16-2013, 07:57 PM
  #197
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Hahaha, I actually am watching the game and it does depress me to see how much faster and skilled these teams look.
Its the execution that depresses me.

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02-16-2013, 07:58 PM
  #198
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Then I'll go out and say Marleau has a huge ego and won't like it when he's just a third-line player. After all, unlike Thornton, he did have a well-known dispute with a coach.

And I'll just simply disagree with your counterarguments.
Except you're well-known dispute with the coach doesn't have very much in regards to Marleau's reactions to it all. Thornton has said plenty that show his aversion.

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02-16-2013, 08:00 PM
  #199
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This arguement is so pointless. Thorton is tin man...Marleau is gutless. There its settled.

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02-16-2013, 08:00 PM
  #200
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Except you're well-known dispute with the coach doesn't have very much in regards to Marleau's reactions to it all. Thornton has said plenty that show his aversion.
Point totals are all the reactions I need.

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This arguement is so pointless. Thorton is tin man...Marleau is gutless. There its settled.
I only criticized Marleau to prove how ridiculous his Thornton assumption was. I really don't have a problem with either player and don't think either have an ego. PF on the otherhand just seems to have an inner hatred towards Thornton.

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