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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-16-2013, 04:41 PM
  #76
BubbaBoot
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bubba, Goldham was a LH shot.
Whoops, you're right....I guess I can't read my own handwriting.

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02-16-2013, 04:47 PM
  #77
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Maybe not...even though Hockey Reference and IHDB list him as a Lefty, these pics suggest otherwise:








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02-16-2013, 05:00 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Great work here overpass. But to get a more accurate picture, I've added a column of games played in each table to put everything in perspective.

Edit: I've also added ESPPG
Is this suppose to change anything? If anything it shows Rousseaus longevity..

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02-16-2013, 05:10 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Is this suppose to change anything? If anything it shows Rousseaus longevity..
Its puts things in perspective. Just showing how many points a guy scored over a period of time doesn't show anything unless you know how many games a guy played. From 64-65 Rousseau scored 148 ES points to Jean Beliveau's 143 points. That's all the original table showed. People would say that and go "wow, Rousseau was a better offensive player than Beliveau!" But when you consider the fact that Beliveau did it in 41 less games, Beliveau's play is clearly more impressive. Ron Francis has the 4th most points in NHL history. Is he the 4th best offensive player ever? Obviously not. Looking at how many games it took them to achieve such numbers is just as important as the numbers themselves.

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Old
02-16-2013, 05:21 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Its puts things in perspective. Just showing how many points a guy scored over a period of time doesn't show anything unless you know how many games a guy played. From 64-65 Rousseau scored 148 ES points to Jean Beliveau's 143 points. That's all the original table showed. People would say that and go "wow, Rousseau was a better offensive player than Beliveau!" But when you consider the fact that Beliveau did it in 41 less games, Beliveau's play is clearly more impressive. Ron Francis has the 4th most points in NHL history. Is he the 4th best offensive player ever? Obviously not. Looking at how many games it took them to achieve such numbers is just as important as the numbers themselves.


Again...is this proving anything? If he was continuously outscoring Jean Believeau in the same amount of games he'd be quite the steal at the 300 or whatever pick I took him at.

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02-16-2013, 05:21 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Great work here overpass. But to get a more accurate picture, I've added a column of games played in each table to put everything in perspective.

Edit: I've also added ESPPG
Thanks Billy. That's something I would have done but didn't have the time, and it does make the picture a little clearer.

Montreal's best ES scorers were their centres - Richard and Beliveau were excellent, and Backstrom was also very good for a third liner. At the wing, Rousseau's ES numbers put him among the team's top 3 wingers in all three time periods, and generally very close to #1. If Claude Provost has the offensive production to play a supporting role on a scoring line in the ATD, so does Rousseau.

The major source of Rousseau's ups and downs in scoring was his role on the Montreal power play. Between Bernard Geoffrion's retirement and Jean-Claude Tremblay's increased role late in the decade, Rousseau was the primary point man on the Montreal PP, and it showed in his scoring numbers.

Random fact about Rousseau - his 37 power play points in 1965-66 were the highest total since Jean Beliveau scored 37 PPP in 1955-56.

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02-16-2013, 05:24 PM
  #82
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Also fwiw he will be on my first line pp on the point.

Lindsay - Savard - Conacher

Gerard - Rousseau

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02-16-2013, 05:24 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well, we do have proof that Green rarely killed penalties, right? So there is that.
We do? I haven't seen that proof. What I gave read is that he killed penalties as a forward.

If you're going to provide some reconstructed toi charts, they only show part of Green's story. It's tough for a guy in the box to kill of his own penalties.

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02-16-2013, 05:27 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Maybe not...even though Hockey Reference and IHDB list him as a Lefty, these pics suggest otherwise:







Those are some pictures that made me wonder too. You never know how things get put on the web, and I've seen things posted backwards before.

That's why I went to the in-game photos. If Goldham is posted backwards, then so is everybody else. Based on game photos, with other players identifiable, Bob Goldham is definately right handed.

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02-16-2013, 05:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Those are some pictures that made me wonder too. You never know how things get put on the web, and I've seen things posted backwards before.

That's why I went to the in-game photos. If Goldham is posted backwards, then so is everybody else. Based on game photos, with other players identifiable, Bob Goldham is definately right handed.
You can also see 'Black Hawks' and 'Toronto' lettering on the jersey's are not flipped either.

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02-16-2013, 05:51 PM
  #86
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02-16-2013, 06:05 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Those are some pictures that made me wonder too. You never know how things get put on the web, and I've seen things posted backwards before.

That's why I went to the in-game photos. If Goldham is posted backwards, then so is everybody else. Based on game photos, with other players identifiable, Bob Goldham is definately right handed.
Agree with this.He is definitely right handed.

I wouldn't put too much stock in HR's info about right/left handedness or even position for that matter.

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02-16-2013, 06:08 PM
  #88
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Didn't a few of the players shoot both left and right at times before the sticks were curved?

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02-16-2013, 06:13 PM
  #89
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Didn't a few of the players shoot both left and right at times before the sticks were curved?
Gordie Howe certainly did. But most did not.

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Old
02-16-2013, 06:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Gordie Howe certainly did. But most did not.
I fail to see how most would anyway , hockey is harder to play from both side than golf or baseball (at least for the swing).

I can play golf from both side , in fact , all of my drivers are righthanded and all of my irons/putter are lefthanded.This is because I have a cleaner weight transfer from the righthanded side but I lose some of my touch if I play my short game righthanded.

I'm lefthanded at hockey , can't control the puck to save my life when playing righthanded.

I wish my weight transfer would be cleaner from my good side but you are what you are.

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Old
02-16-2013, 06:24 PM
  #91
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Hershey drafts HHOF right winger Bobby Bauer, the brains behind the Kraut Line. The hustling playmaker had an excellent decade of hockey (1937-1947), preceded by the Memorial Cup, interrupted by WWII (in which he won the Allan Cup with the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1942) and ended by injury (to his shoulder by Black Jack Stewart). So, he only had seven full NHL seasons, but in that time he excelled. He was four times 2nd team all star (1939, 1940, 1941, 1947), three times Lady Byng winner (1940, 1941, 1947), four times top ten in goal scoring including a 2nd place finish in his last year (30 goals in 1947) as runner-up to only Rocket Richard. Imagine what more he could have done without WWII or the career-ending injury. He also was twice top-10 in assists in the years between the two Stanley Cups (1939, 1941) and twice was top-5 in playoff goal scoring. He scored the cup-clinching goal in his second Stanley Cup championship and scored 4 goals in a 1946 Stanley Cup Finals run. He scored more goals than assists in his rookie year and last year but had more assists in his career due to the half decade of NHL play inbetween. He was renowned as a smart and slick puckhandler. ''Bobby was the brains of the line,'' said Woody Dumart. ''He was always thinking and a very clever playmaker,'' stated Milt Schmidt. He came out of retirement for one game in 1952 to see his number 17 retired in Boston along with his Kraut Line mates, and Bauer scored a goal and an assist in the 4-0 win that night.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver Sun, Sep 17, 1964
Bobby Bauer was many things to many people. To his opponents of the late 30s and the early 40s, he was a gnat, a buzzing, flying, stinging gnat - too fast to swat, too tiny to hate and too skilled to ignore. To the Boston Bruins, he was the thinking part of the Kraut line.

Jack McGill, of our town was with the Bruins in the time of the Krauts. "Bauer was the little professor, the guy whose brains made the link click."

Babe Pratt: If you dumped him into the boards he bounced back at you like a rubber ball.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Hockey
He was a skater, stick-handler, and play-maker per excellence.

In a Word JACKRABBIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail of the Stanley Cup, vol.3
... slick and tricky.. he could hustle...


Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF
... Bauer had a rare combination of skill, grace and sportsmanship.

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Old
02-16-2013, 07:07 PM
  #92
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Pittsburgh will select D, Frank Patrick

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Old
02-16-2013, 07:18 PM
  #93
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Pittsburgh will select D, Frank Patrick
It's too bad he didn't stick to the ice. He was probably better than his brother.

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02-16-2013, 07:20 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Hershey drafts HHOF right winger Bobby Bauer, the brains behind the Kraut Line. The hustling playmaker had an excellent decade of hockey (1937-1947), preceded by the Memorial Cup, interrupted by WWII (in which he won the Allan Cup with the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1942) and ended by injury (to his shoulder by Black Jack Stewart). So, he only had seven full NHL seasons, but in that time he excelled. He was four times 2nd team all star (1939, 1940, 1941, 1947), three times Lady Byng winner (1940, 1941, 1947), four times top ten in goal scoring including a 2nd place finish in his last year (30 goals in 1947) as runner-up to only Rocket Richard. Imagine what more he could have done without WWII or the career-ending injury. He also was twice top-10 in assists in the years between the two Stanley Cups (1939, 1941) and twice was top-5 in playoff goal scoring. He scored the cup-clinching goal in his second Stanley Cup championship and scored 4 goals in a 1946 Stanley Cup Finals run. He scored more goals than assists in his rookie year and last year but had more assists in his career due to the half decade of NHL play inbetween. He was renowned as a smart and slick puckhandler. ''Bobby was the brains of the line,'' said Woody Dumart. ''He was always thinking and a very clever playmaker,'' stated Milt Schmidt. He came out of retirement for one game in 1952 to see his number 17 retired in Boston along with his Kraut Line mates, and Bauer scored a goal and an assist in the 4-0 win that night.















Decent pick, but you're going to have a hard time selling him as much of a playmaker. The stats just don't support it.

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Old
02-16-2013, 07:48 PM
  #95
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The Whalers select Mike Peca, C



Can someone of you text Leaflander?

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Old
02-16-2013, 08:22 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Decent pick, but you're going to have a hard time selling him as much of a playmaker. The stats just don't support it.
There are multiple references praising his playmaking ability. He could very well have initiated many great scoring plays without getting a recorded assist back in the day when the 2nd assist wasn't recorded as much. His linemates called him a playmaker. His coach called him a playmaker. He's praised for his smarts by many. There are at least two journalists who characterize his play such. I'll dig up some hockey book references to him as well. Apparently, the fact that he had as many goals as assists is an obstacle for you accepting that he was a playmaker.

The impression I get from all I've read so far is that he was good at making decisions whether to pass or go to shoot, that he did both equally well, though he only was top-10 in NHL assists twice whereas he was among the leaders in goals more often. In other words, he wasn't just a finisher or puck rusher, but instead an integral part of the passing attack of the line, knowing where to be when to do what. He may be a lot like Bun Cook in that regard, passing and shooting with equal talent.



Interesting aside: I just read that the Kraut Line scored 11 points between them in a 8-1 shellacking of the Habs in their final game at Boston Gardens before heading off to WWII service, on February 11th, 1942. "It was a dramatic climax that left a few wet eyes in the sellout crowd." Pg. 72 of The Picture History of the Boston Bruins by Harry Sinden and Dick Grace

And Bauer played defense for the RCAF during WWII in Halifax the year after he won the Allan Cup in Ottawa at the start of his military service.


Last edited by VanIslander: 02-16-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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02-16-2013, 08:44 PM
  #97
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02-16-2013, 08:51 PM
  #98
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Decent pick, but you're going to have a hard time selling him as much of a playmaker. The stats just don't support it.
The only players of his era that the stats support as clearly better playmakers were centres. Take the 5 year period from 37-38 to 41-42.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...der_by=assists

Cowley, Apps, and Watson were well ahead in assists, but all were centres. Bauer was a close second to Toe Blake in assists by a winger and had the most by a RW (assuming Syd Howe played a lot of C in that time.)

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02-16-2013, 08:54 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
There are multiple references praising his playmaking ability. He could very well have initiated many great scoring plays without getting a recorded assist back in the day when the 2nd assist wasn't recorded as much. His linemates called him a playmaker. His coach called him a playmaker. He's praised for his smarts by many. There are at least two journalists who characterize his play such. I'll dig up some hockey book references to him as well. Apparently, the fact that he had as many goals as assists is an obstacle for you accepting that he was a playmaker.
Statistically, he was not a good playmaker. Descriptions of his play are great, but when they go against the numbers, I'm going to believe the numbers.

Hit goal to assist ratio has nothing to do with it. Compared to his peers, his playmaking skills were not special.

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02-16-2013, 08:58 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
The only players of his era that the stats support as clearly better playmakers were centres. Take the 5 year period from 37-38 to 41-42.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...der_by=assists

Cowley, Apps, and Watson were well ahead in assists, but all were centres. Bauer was a close second to Toe Blake in assists by a winger and had the most by a RW (assuming Syd Howe played a lot of C in that time.)
Nice. It coheres with what hockey minds of his era were saying about Bauer's playmaking from the wing.

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