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Shero personally scouting COL-MIN game on 2/14

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02-16-2013, 10:50 PM
  #326
Tender Rip
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ROR does not address a single issue of this team, so unless Shero is working on one of those very rare three-party deals, it is meaningless to acquire him.

Otherwise I see a lot of 'Malkin should be traded for wingaz' in our future...

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02-16-2013, 10:56 PM
  #327
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Why has there been so much ROR talk in this thread? There is absolutely no reason to trade for him, none.

Let's go back to talking about Clutterbuck and Setoguchi

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02-16-2013, 10:57 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
ROR does not address a single issue of this team, so unless Shero is working on one of those very rare three-party deals, it is meaningless to acquire him.

Otherwise I see a lot of 'Malkin should be traded for wingaz' in our future...
The only thing that makes sense would be to deal Sutter+ for O'Reilly. Colorado gets an O'Reilly replacement and loses a headache in ROR. We get an upgrade, and get a bit closer to the 3C model we had with Staal.

The problem is twofold: O'Reilly's salary vis-a-vis Sutter, and what else would we have to give Colorado to finish the deal.

I wouldn't give much more than Sutter for O'Reilly. Jeffrey or Boychuk, maybe?

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02-16-2013, 11:01 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The only thing that makes sense would be to deal Sutter+ for O'Reilly. Colorado gets an O'Reilly replacement and loses a headache in ROR. We get an upgrade, and get a bit closer to the 3C model we had with Staal.

The problem is twofold: O'Reilly's salary vis-a-vis Sutter, and what else would we have to give Colorado to finish the deal.

I wouldn't give much more than Sutter for O'Reilly. Jeffrey or Boychuk, maybe?
A big reason he isn't signed is because he doesn't want to be a 3rd line center. And do we really want to go right back to the 3 center model we had with Staal? I want to build around the best players in the world. Having a third line center getting paid like a 3rd line center allows us to do that.

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02-16-2013, 11:01 PM
  #330
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Avs don't want a center back. Top 6 forward/PMD+. Mitchell has played well for them in the 3C spot. And I don't see us going back to paying 4-5 mil for our 3C. It's him on the wing or not at all.

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02-16-2013, 11:42 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The only thing that makes sense would be to deal Sutter+ for O'Reilly. Colorado gets an O'Reilly replacement and loses a headache in ROR. We get an upgrade, and get a bit closer to the 3C model we had with Staal.
That's kind of the point I had yesterday with the identity thread. It would be a mistake because we don't have the winger depth to make the 3rd line a weapon without sacrificing the top6 big time, and the key to what made the 3rd line awesome offensively was that Staal's size, wingspan and mobility made them able to camp in the offensive zone and grind out offense despite the line having marginal creativity.

O'Reilly cannot do that, and so we would be paying him more than we did Staal to do less while insuring that we couldn't address our real issues.

Again, all this ROR stuff seems utterly bizarre for me with the one single possible exception that we have quite a bit of the stuff Colorado would need back and his contract situation might make him more affordable asset wise than many other good players - and then ROR is the kind of asset who could more easily be converted to the kind of return we would need. But.... these kind of deals rarely ever happens, which is why it's slightly out there speculating on it.


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02-17-2013, 12:12 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
Those fans of the Avs that I quoted don't think he'd make the transition well and they've been watching him way more than any of us.
What does watching him play center have anything to do about him playing wing? I mean, if they had comeback with a post that they tried it for some time and he looked terrible, then yes, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sure he has a side of the ice he likes to defer to when trying to enter the zone. That should be his side to try and play first.

Malkin and Crosby can play the **** out of the RW position. They both defer to that side.

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02-17-2013, 12:42 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
ROR does not address a single issue of this team, so unless Shero is working on one of those very rare three-party deals, it is meaningless to acquire him.

Otherwise I see a lot of 'Malkin should be traded for wingaz' in our future...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
That's kind of the point I had yesterday with the identity thread. It would be a mistake because we don't have the winger depth to make the 3rd line a weapon without sacrificing the top6 big time, and the key to what made the 3rd line awesome offensively was that Staal's size, wingspan and mobility made them able to camp in the offensive zone and grind out offense despite the line having marginal creativity.

O'Reilly cannot do that, and so we would be paying him more than we did Staal to do less while insuring that we couldn't address our real issues.

Again, all this ROR stuff seems utterly bizarre for me with the one single possible exception that we have quite a bit of the stuff Colorado would need back and his contract situation might make him more affordable asset wise than many other good players - and then ROR is the kind of asset who could more easily be converted to the kind of return we would need. But.... these kind of deals rarely ever happens, which is why it's slightly out there speculating on it.
He doesn't address/fit a single issue on the team?

Faceoffs, and on the PK
He lead the league in take-away's
He has speed
He shows offensive touch (play making) some scoring
Depth - One of Sid or Geno and the Pens are now a #1 line then a #2 line, #3 line, #4. With O'Reilly we still have a 1A and 1B with a #3 and #4.

Sid goes down.

Cooke, Malkin, Neal
Kunitz, O'Reilly, Dupuis
Boychuk, Sutter, Kennedy
Glass, Vitale, Adams
Jeffrey

Geno goes down.

Kunitz, Crosby, Dupuis
Cooke, O'Reilly, Neal
Boychuk, Sutter, Kennedy
Glass, Vitale, Adams
Jeffrey

Nobody is injured.

Kunitz, Crosby, O'Reilly/Dupuis
Cooke/O'Reilly, Malkin, Neal
Cooke/Boychuk, Sutter, Kennedy/Dupuis
Glass, Vitale, Adams/Kennedy
Jeffrey

He could end up being our more highly skilled Talbot.

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02-17-2013, 01:26 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
He doesn't address/fit a single issue on the team?

Faceoffs, and on the PK
He lead the league in take-away's
He has speed
He shows offensive touch (play making) some scoring
Depth - One of Sid or Geno and the Pens are now a #1 line then a #2 line, #3 line, #4. With O'Reilly we still have a 1A and 1B with a #3 and #4.

Sid goes down.

Cooke, Malkin, Neal
Kunitz, O'Reilly, Dupuis
Boychuk, Sutter, Kennedy
Glass, Vitale, Adams
Jeffrey

Geno goes down.

Kunitz, Crosby, Dupuis
Cooke, O'Reilly, Neal
Boychuk, Sutter, Kennedy
Glass, Vitale, Adams
Jeffrey

Nobody is injured.

Kunitz, Crosby, O'Reilly/Dupuis
Cooke/O'Reilly, Malkin, Neal
Cooke/Boychuk, Sutter, Kennedy/Dupuis
Glass, Vitale, Adams/Kennedy
Jeffrey

He could end up being our more highly skilled Talbot.
Come on now!
Face offs, PK'ing and center depth are not issues on this team!
His playmaking (assist numbers) are highly reliant on a PP role he wouldn't have with us and playing with arguably more skilled wingers than he would with us.

Coaching debates aside, we are short of genuine top 6 wingers. We are short on forwards who can dominate physically (while being able to play). O'Reilly on this team is the better C version of what Niskanen is to our D. A fine player who doesn't address any of our weaknesses, and doesn't substantially add to what we already have unless we have injuries and/or being played out of position.

And sure, maybe O'Reilly could actually work as a winger, but why spend significant assets to acquire a player to make him something he has never been before? O'Reilly should go be a 2nd line C somewhere his abilities can be maximized.

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02-17-2013, 01:32 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Come on now!
Face offs, PK'ing and center depth are not issues on this team!
His playmaking (assist numbers) are highly reliant on a PP role he wouldn't have with us and playing with arguably more skilled wingers than he would with us.

Coaching debates aside, we are short of genuine top 6 wingers. We are short on forwards who can dominate physically (while being able to play). O'Reilly on this team is the better C version of what Niskanen is to our D. A fine player who doesn't address any of our weaknesses, and doesn't substantially add to what we already have unless we have injuries and/or being played out of position. Not to mention, he could take faceoffs for Geno's line.

And sure, maybe O'Reilly could actually work as a winger, but why spend significant assets to acquire a player to make him something he has never been before? O'Reilly should go be a 2nd line C somewhere his abilities can be maximized.
I'll bite. He's a tireless player on both sides of the puck, can provide a defensive presence on whatever line he plays, and is a smart playmaker whose game I believe could adapt to any forward position.

Why should we trade for him rather than a natural winger? Well, because he's obviously on the block, we have assets the Avs would covet, and he's younger, more productive, and better all-around than pretty much every potential wing acquisition we've been talking about.

If he works, fantastic. Our winger woes are pretty much over.

If he doesn't, we can flip him for a scoring winger without issue.

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02-17-2013, 01:41 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'll bite. He's a tireless player on both sides of the puck, can provide a defensive presence on whatever line he plays, and is a smart playmaker whose game I believe could adapt to any forward position.

Why should we trade for him rather than a natural winger? Well, because he's obviously on the block, we have assets the Avs would covet, and he's younger, more productive, and better all-around than pretty much every potential wing acquisition we've been talking about.

If he works, fantastic. Our winger woes are pretty much over.

If he doesn't, we can flip him for a scoring winger without issue.
Theres alot of ifs involved. Im all for doing it but sadly i dont think shero wants to take the risk.

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02-17-2013, 01:44 AM
  #337
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Theres alot of ifs involved. Im all for doing it but sadly i dont think shero wants to take the risk.
There are two ifs involved. And neither is undesirable.

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02-17-2013, 01:57 AM
  #338
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There are two ifs involved. And neither is undesirable.
I wasnt just refering to the ifs you said. What if we trade for ROR but he doesnt sign? What if he signs cant play wing so we have to trade him + a top prospect for a winger. What if when trading him the team doesnt want a centre like st.louis.

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02-17-2013, 02:04 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'll bite. He's a tireless player on both sides of the puck, can provide a defensive presence on whatever line he plays, and is a smart playmaker whose game I believe could adapt to any forward position.

Why should we trade for him rather than a natural winger? Well, because he's obviously on the block, we have assets the Avs would covet, and he's younger, more productive, and better all-around than pretty much every potential wing acquisition we've been talking about.

If he works, fantastic. Our winger woes are pretty much over.

If he doesn't, we can flip him for a scoring winger without issue.
You'll give me an aneurism .
I am off any O'Reilly discussions.

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02-17-2013, 02:04 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Malkinstheman View Post
I wasnt just refering to the ifs you said. What if we trade for ROR but he doesnt sign?
There's no way a deal would happen without the team trading for him working out a deal in principle beforehand.

Quote:
What if he signs cant play wing so we have to trade him + a top prospect for a winger.
The Pens would not have to add anything to O'Reilly to acquire a winger.

Quote:
What if when trading him the team doesnt want a centre like st.louis.
Then you trade him to another team that does want him. There will always be a demand for players like O'Reilly.

This whole discussion is getting stupid.

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02-17-2013, 02:05 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You'll give me an aneurism .
I am off any O'Reilly discussions.
I'm starting to lean that way too, haha.

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02-17-2013, 02:26 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Come on now!
Face offs, PK'ing and center depth are not issues on this team!
His playmaking (assist numbers) are highly reliant on a PP role he wouldn't have with us and playing with arguably more skilled wingers than he would with us.

Coaching debates aside, we are short of genuine top 6 wingers. We are short on forwards who can dominate physically (while being able to play). O'Reilly on this team is the better C version of what Niskanen is to our D. A fine player who doesn't address any of our weaknesses, and doesn't substantially add to what we already have unless we have injuries and/or being played out of position.

And sure, maybe O'Reilly could actually work as a winger, but why spend significant assets to acquire a player to make him something he has never been before? O'Reilly should go be a 2nd line C somewhere his abilities can be maximized.
With a critical faceoff who do you want out there other than Crosby? That's a issue.

Why draft a D-man when we need wingers? Why not try guys out on the wing? is there some kind of law preventing it? Has it failed 100% of the time? Is there a better player out there who's better and will cost less, adding, will he even fit or work out either?

There are ifs in anything they do, I'm just advocating for the best player who is available right now, who's better than any of the targets being mentioned even though they're natural wingers. There will be plenty of spots where he'll get to play center. Just because the guys a center shouldn't sway us from that fact he brings more to the table than bringing a natural winger alone just because he played that position. There's enough proof out there both ways. Yes, we can go the traditional way and bring a true winger in, but there's just as much risk if they'll blend too.

You're not wasting assets if he's an asset by himself whether he works out or not.

If you can find a winger better or equal to his stature, and come at a bargain because of the nature of the Avs situation, by all means, I'm 100% with you.

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02-17-2013, 08:22 AM
  #343
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If Shero thinks he can play wing then I'd be happy to have him. We aren't bringing him in to play center. Sure, he'll get shifts at center, but his baseline position would have to be on Sid's or Geno's wing to be worth bringing him in.

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02-17-2013, 11:00 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
If Shero thinks he can play wing then I'd be happy to have him. We aren't bringing him in to play center. Sure, he'll get shifts at center, but his baseline position would have to be on Sid's or Geno's wing to be worth bringing him in.
this.

in my opinion, if he shows that he can somehow work on the wing, make an offer for him. however, i don't think this will work for him. even if he did land here to play center, he'd push Sutter to the 4th line or the wings. then, it's Jordan Staal all over again.

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02-17-2013, 11:24 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
What does watching him play center have anything to do about him playing wing? I mean, if they had comeback with a post that they tried it for some time and he looked terrible, then yes, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sure he has a side of the ice he likes to defer to when trying to enter the zone. That should be his side to try and play first.

Malkin and Crosby can play the **** out of the RW position. They both defer to that side.
What does watching a guy play on another team mean when we project how he'll perform here? Any evaluation of how an athletes performance in one scenario will translate to another is speculation and even paid experts aren't right all of the time.

But the fact that no one on their board disagreed that O'Reilly is best at center seemed pretty interesting to me. I think a big part of that is because his biggest strengths (face-offs and defense) would be severely limited on the wing.

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