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02-17-2013, 08:57 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
The fact is I don't have a problem with letting Macdonald play or Taylor my problem is the way this team treats its prospects. We expect them to come in and preform better than the veterans or else we send them back down, and all it steams from this idea of playoffs or bust. This team isn't going to give any goalie good numbers so look at past numbers of Macdonald isn't all that useful he played in a great defensive team in Detroit. I am not mad that we are giving another goalie a chance to play some games my problem is as long as this mentality exists we won't develop our own players. For me this is more of an issue with the thought process of the management then it is with this particular player.

This move shows me that we still aren't ready to give our prospects a real chance nor are we taking the state of this franchise seriously. If we were a perennial playoff team that was just looking for a stop gap while Kipper was out Macdonald would make alot of sense.
I don't understand this logic. Since when does a single player's development come before the wins of the team? It is a short season and we need to win, Feaster thinks Taylor may give us a better chance than Irving did. Period. We can't score 7 goals every night.

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02-17-2013, 09:26 AM
  #102
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I don't understand this logic. Since when does a single player's development come before the wins of the team? It is a short season and we need to win, Feaster thinks Taylor may give us a better chance than Irving did. Period. We can't score 7 goals every night.
It's how rebuilding teams work and redevelop effectively (If you need an example check out the Oilers - Noodge played 28 games before scoring a goal). The problem with the Flames is that they don't realize or want to accept that they are cycling down into rebuilding territory (They may have actually arrived and been there for a while but that's another thread). For whatever blinkered reason they still think they can win and make the playoffs and this cannot be the case with the current cast of characters. They're great guys and do a lot for the community but they are not a playoff team.

Back to the main topic, two things should have happened with Irving: 1) He should have played more in Abbotsford during the lockout. And 2) He should have been given at least one more game in his current audition - if only to show the coaches how he could come back after the St. Louis stinker.

And hopefully guys like Feaster have instructed Ward to play Irving in the A. If you're going to send your main goalie prospect to the minors then at least play him there. Brust got bombed for 7 goals last night so what have they got to lose?


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02-17-2013, 09:47 AM
  #103
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It's how rebuilding teams work and redevelop effectively (If you need an example check out the Oilers - Noodge played 28 games before scoring a goal). The problem with the Flames is that they don't realize or want to accept that they are cycling down into rebuilding territory (They may have actually arrived and been there for a while but that's another thread). For whatever blinkered reason they still think they can win and make the playoffs and this cannot be the case with the current cast of characters. They're great guys and do a lot for the community but they are not a playoff team.

Back to the main topic, two things should have happened with Irving: 1) He should have played more in Abbotsford during the lockout. And 2) He should have been given at least one more game in his current audition - if only to show the coaches how he could come back after the St. Louis stinker.

And hopefully guys like Feaster have instructed Ward to play Irving in the A. If you're going to send your main goalie prospect to the minors then at least play him there. Brust got bombed for 7 goals last night so what have they got to lose?
You're going to tell me the team we had last year is better then the team we have this year? If they finished 9th last year I don't understand how you can write them off this early in the season. They very well can be a playoff team, you forget to realize that we are missing our starting goaltender, and 2 very important young forwards for this team. We may not have a good record and are at the bottom of the standings, but its still too early to write them off. All they need is a little winning streak and their back in the hunt.

Can you blame them for trying another goalie? Its obvious MacDonald will not just be given the starting position, we could very well see Taylor steal the show. My point is they are not looking to rebuild, so having Irving in there just to "develop" does not make sense. They are exploring their goaltending options and whoever does best will get the job. Why shouldn't MacDonald or Taylor get a shot? Irving's been alright but has not done enough, so Feaster wants to see what the others can do. If you think that Irving's confidence will get shattered, well then thats his own fault. When the Flames released St.Louis early in his career did he hang up the skates? or did he take it as motivation? 4 years later he won the Hart trophy, so you can feel bad for Irving all you want, but its his job to keep working and prove everyone wrong.

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02-17-2013, 09:54 AM
  #104
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Hope he's packaged and traded for a younger centre. I'm excited about brust and Taylor. I thought Irving played ok, and you can tell he has tremendous skill, but he's too small IMO.

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02-17-2013, 09:56 AM
  #105
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You're going to tell me the team we had last year is better then the team we have this year? If they finished 9th last year I don't understand how you can write them off this early in the season. .
It's not hard - it's the quarter mark and the signs and trends are there. They are still capable of sparks and fire power and the odd surprise win but they are facing an extremely difficult uphill climb. One thing that could have saved the season is the discovery of a goalie who could steal wins but Irving is obviously not there (YET) and I hardly think Taylor or MacDonald are going to do any better.

This is why they can afford to give Irving at least one or two more games to get himself back on track.

What are the options? How many teams find their saviours off the waiver wire?

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02-17-2013, 10:04 AM
  #106
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Hope he's packaged and traded for a younger centre. I'm excited about brust and Taylor. I thought Irving played ok, and you can tell he has tremendous skill, but he's too small IMO.
Miikka Kiprusoff: 6'1" 185 pounds
Leland Irving: 6'0" 177 pounds

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02-17-2013, 10:19 AM
  #107
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It's not hard - it's the quarter mark and the signs and trends are there. They are still capable of sparks and fire power and the odd surprise win but they are facing an extremely difficult uphill climb. One thing that could have saved the season is the discovery of a goalie who could steal wins but Irving is obviously not there (YET) and I hardly think Taylor or MacDonald are going to do any better.

This is why they can afford to give Irving at least one or two more games to get himself back on track.

What are the options? How many teams find their saviours off the waiver wire?
Nobody likes to be placed on waivers. Being picked up from another team is kind of a second chance to stay in the NHL before being demoted to the AHL. That has to be some motivation to MacDonald. Im not saying its a lock that he'll do good but we might as well give him a chance. Irving got a 5 game try-out to show what he's worth, I don't think he disapointed.. But now they want to give MacDonald a couple games. If Irving turned out to have been better you can bet that he'll be back.

I know this team doesn't look like a playoff team, but im just giving you the mentality that management has. Before the season started we all thought they we're a playoff team, and now after a slow start and a couple injuries we're all ready to blow up the team. Personally I think Feaster is open to the option of rebuilding should we not be in the playoffs come trade deadline, but until then you can count on him trying to mix things up to find a way to string some W's. We saw Jones on waivers, and now we have the goalie change. We can't all rise against management over this, we're missing our starting goalie so they have chosen to experiment on a few goalies rather than simply ride Irving.

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02-17-2013, 10:23 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by MuffinMerc View Post
Miikka Kiprusoff: 6'1" 185 pounds
Leland Irving: 6'0" 177 pounds
Not that good of a comparison. Kipper's been a proven goalie for the past decade, Irving doesn't even have 20 career games under his belt. They might be similar in size but they are not on the same level in goaltending.

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02-17-2013, 10:32 AM
  #109
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Not that good of a comparison. Kipper's been a proven goalie for the past decade, Irving doesn't even have 20 career games under his belt. They might be similar in size but they are not on the same level in goaltending.
Exactly my point. He said Irving is too small to play in the NHL. I do not belive that in a second.

This poor asset management by the Flames. You develop your players by giving them playing time. Irving did not get that time in Abbotsford, and was then expected to beat Henrik for the backup job, then thrust into the starting goalie position. He's played well, but his treatment makes you wonder why this club even drafts players.

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02-17-2013, 10:35 AM
  #110
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Nobody likes to be placed on waivers. Being picked up from another team is kind of a second chance to stay in the NHL before being demoted to the AHL. That has to be some motivation to MacDonald.
I'm sure that being on waivers is a type of motivation but teams do not waive potential game breakers.

Except the Leafs that one time (Steve Sullivan) but anyway...

MacDonald's ceiling is what the Flames need right now - a solid backup for either Kipper or his replacement - but he is not going to shove the Flames into playoff contention. I've been following his career for years and he's never struck me as being that particular type of goalie.

I'm not sure Feaster is up for the rebuild - I haven't heard anything publically anyway. So I guess that's still up in the air. It may take a massive change in ownership before this team can get back on the right track.

You mentioned Irving's 5 game audition - my only quibble with that part of your post is that he's missed that one game that every goalie needs to help make them or break them. He needs that post St. Louis game and they're not giving it to him. Flames management and coaches need (Even if Irving doesn't) him to play that game - even if it's just to rule him out as the possible number one.


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02-17-2013, 10:44 AM
  #111
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IMO both sides are equally to blame in all of this. Here is the breakdown as I've seen it over the past year:

Mid way through the season last year, Karlson shows he just can't get it done, and Flames brass reward Irving for his past work. Irving at this point had shown he was a legit starter in the AHL and had alot of promise. By all accounts he has earned this call up.

Good work by both sides.

Like usual we are in a tight battle for a PO spot, Kipper needs to start each game and Irving only gets into back to back games. Management feel it is not good for Irving's development to sit for extended periods, so they shuttle him back & forth between NHL & AHL (this was where it all went wrong IMO). Leland has some good games in Calgary, and some not so good games. In the AHL he loses his starter job to Taylor. Some serious concerns here for me at this point, but some posters making excuses for him already.
Lock out happens, which was terrible timing for this soap opera. It would have been great to see the goalies in a proper camp battle it out for the backup job. Brust is signed because we werenít sure if Irving could be sent down without being claimed. Irving is sent down, and has a not so good camp getting outplayed by both Taylor and Brust. Season starts and Irving does not even dress. Fans still in denial saying itís because of his 25 game tryout contract. Irving content to sit and not get overseas to get some playing time. In any game action he did get into he continued to play considerably worse than either of the other 2 goalies (who were playing lights out at the time). At this point Iím questioning Irvings desire to remain with the Flames/ability to play at the NHL level.
Both sides dropped the ball here.

Lockout ends, Irving gets rewarded for nothing and gets an invite to camp. He canít show he is the better option over Karlson, so both go on waivers. Irving ďwinsĒ the backup spot because he is younger and cheaper. Kipper starts every game because Irving is not ready yet (why is he there again?). Kipper gets injured and Irving is thrust into a starting job in the NHL. Wow, talk about an opportunity. He plays some good games, and some not so good games. Sure he makes some flashy saves, but he shows some serious weaknesses in his game, and it is clear he is not ready yet and will need more playing time (duh.....). We sign a goalie who has played on a new team almost every year during the 7 years heís been a back up in the NHL to carry the mail while Kipper is out. Taylor gets called up, maybe he should have been the one to back up to begin with?

From here it is up to Irving as far as what happens with the rest of his career. If heís going to sulk, donít let the door hit you on the way out. If heís going to battle and show that he can be the best goalie on the farm, then good for him. If he can do that he will get another opportunity to play for the Flames this year and show he can succeed at the NHL level. If he canít, heís done Ė and no one should be sad to see him go.

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02-17-2013, 10:56 AM
  #112
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Exactly my point. He said Irving is too small to play in the NHL. I do not belive that in a second.

This poor asset management by the Flames. You develop your players by giving them playing time. Irving did not get that time in Abbotsford, and was then expected to beat Henrik for the backup job, then thrust into the starting goalie position. He's played well, but his treatment makes you wonder why this club even drafts players.
What treatment? Do you care more about the team's performance or your prospects feelings? If his confidence is going to shatter just because he got sent down to the minors, then im sorry but he does not deserve to be in the NHL. Goalies are a lot stronger mentally then players, and getting sent down to the minors should serve nothing more than motivation. If Irving stood on his head and got shutouts every game then you can complain. But he hasn't, he did what he was supposed to and nothing more. MacDonald WILL NOT be simply given the backup job. They want to give him a proper tryout which means a couple of starts. They also gave Taylor a contract so why not give him a shot too? Irving had his chance in the AHL but lost the job to Taylor, so why not give him a shot and see what he can do? If thats the case, theres no point in keeping three goalies up here so send him down for a bit, I don't see whats the problem here.

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02-17-2013, 11:05 AM
  #113
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I'm sure that being on waivers is a type of motivation but teams do not waive potential game breakers.

Except the Leafs that one time (Steve Sullivan) but anyway...

MacDonald's ceiling is what the Flames need right now - a solid backup for either Kipper or his replacement - but he is not going to shove the Flames into playoff contention. I've been following his career for years and he's never struck me as being that particular type of goalie.

I'm not sure Feaster is up for the rebuild - I haven't heard anything publically anyway. So I guess that's still up in the air. It may take a massive change in ownership before this team can get back on the right track.

You mentioned Irving's 5 game audition - my only quibble with that part of your post is that he's missed that one game that every goalie needs to help make them or break them. He needs that post St. Louis game and they're not giving it to him. Flames management and coaches need (Even if Irving doesn't) him to play that game - even if it's just to rule him out as the possible number one.
His shaky performance in the first two periods of the Dallas game put him on a short lease IMO. And then letting in two out of four shots in the St.Louis game 5 minutes in sealed the deal. Yea its not enough of a sample size to judge but when your in Irving's position you don't have that much of a window. A goalie like Kipper is allowed to have bad games, simply because we all know that he's proven and will bounce back. Unfortunately for Irving, he doesn't have that luxury. As soon as MacDonald got picked up, we all knew that it was either lights out for Irving or he loses his job.

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02-17-2013, 11:13 AM
  #114
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While I believe Irving has not been that bad in the games he's played, I think some of you are a little to biased on him. Bottom line, Irving has not done enough to secure his starting job. Many of you are looking at all the great saves he's made and forget to realize the squeakers he let in almost every game. Those are the ones that NHL experience will help, and Irving simply doesn't have that. They gave him a shot to see what he can do, maybe they we're expecting to much from him but they have no choice. Clearly, the team is pushing for the playoffs so their goal is to win, and if Irving doesn't go beyond what his expectations are then someone else is gona get the shot. This in no way means that their dumping Irving and MacDonald is the official starter. If MacDonald struggles he will lose his spot as well. The reason they brought down Irving is first of all, he doesn't have to clear waivers, and they want to see what Taylor can do.

Don't get me wrong, I think Irving has done a good job based on what was expected of him, but it is clear that management wants more, is that too much to ask? Maybe, but if they don't get it they will give someone else a chance who MIGHT just give it to them and if they don't do any better we could very well see Irving back in nets. I no many of you think Irving has potential and I do as well, but you need to understand that the organization is not focused on developing their young players (or else we wouldn't of seen Sven on the 4th line, and yes I know it was just one game so don't jump me).. They are trying to put the best team possible, and just like Hartley does with the defense in trying to make it competitive, he's doing the same with the goalies.
Excellent post. Agree 100%

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02-17-2013, 11:44 AM
  #115
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How is it not even remotely true? He played 6 games in for Abbotsford this season before the lockout ended and his GAA and SV% was worse then the 6 games in the NHL this season. He got outplayed last season in the AHL as well by Taylor. He needs to prove he can handle AHL shooters before facing the big boys.
He was designated the 3rd stringer before the AHL season in even started. He lost his starter's job last season only after being shuttled back and forth between the NHL and the AHL - before that, he was easily the best goalie on the Heat. Do prospects need to earn their position? Yes. At the same, they need to be given the opportunity to earn that position. The Flames and seemingly a lot of fans here, don't understand that.

Again, has Hudlinator illustrated, there's a very clear fallacy with the Flames mentality (both with the fans and management) when it comes to developing prospects but also winning. Contrary to what the Flames believe, you can do both at the same time. Well, at least you can if your organization isn't run by inept stooges who can't let their ego get out of the way. Look at New Jersey; they're trying to win but they're not afraid to give their prospects actual opportunities in the NHL to see what they can do. Look at the role Henrique played for them in his rookie season. Look at what Kreider did for the NYR last post-season. Every team has cases like these. Well, except the Flames. I wonder why?

The reality is, there isn't a team in the NHL as bad the Flames when it comes to drafting and developing prospects and there's a reason for that - this organization doesn't understand the development process at all and refuses to even try to. It's not a coincidence or just poor luck that the Flames seem to have so many first 'busts,' it's a self-inflicting cycle of misery as the organization refuses to adapt to the reality of good development.

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02-17-2013, 12:01 PM
  #116
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He was designated the 3rd stringer before the AHL season in even started. He lost his starter's job last season only after being shuttled back and forth between the NHL and the AHL - before that, he was easily the best goalie on the Heat. Do prospects need to earn their position? Yes. At the same, they need to be given the opportunity to earn that position. The Flames and seemingly a lot of fans here, don't understand that.

Again, has Hudlinator illustrated, there's a very clear fallacy with the Flames mentality (both with the fans and management) when it comes to developing prospects but also winning. Contrary to what the Flames believe, you can do both at the same time. Well, at least you can if your organization isn't run by inept stooges who can't let their ego get out of the way. Look at New Jersey; they're trying to win but they're not afraid to give their prospects actual opportunities in the NHL to see what they can do. Look at the role Henrique played for them in his rookie season. Look at what Kreider did for the NYR last post-season. Every team has cases like these. Well, except the Flames. I wonder why?

The reality is, there isn't a team in the NHL as bad the Flames when it comes to drafting and developing prospects and there's a reason for that - this organization doesn't understand the development process at all and refuses to even try to. It's not a coincidence or just poor luck that the Flames seem to have so many first 'busts,' it's a self-inflicting cycle of misery as the organization refuses to adapt to the reality of good development.
I don't think we can blame the busts that we had in the past on the new management. The Flames do have a history with developing their prospects very poorly, but with only two seasons under his belt, we can't already suggest that Feaster is bad at developing prospects. Looking at the Irving case, it is obvious that they we're never big on him. I don't know exactly what they are thinking, but it seems like they don't see a future with Irving in this organization. Guys like Ramo, Gillies, and Broissoit are the goalie's of the future in their eyes.

As for giving prospects a chance, I am all for it. But right now if this team doesn't win games, the season is over for the Flames, and MacDonald i guess is more "reliable" because of his NHL experience. Developing a goalie is probably the hardest thing for an organization, and given that they want to both win and develop prospects, its hard to depend on a rookie goalie to bring you to the playoffs.

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02-17-2013, 12:18 PM
  #117
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His shaky performance in the first two periods of the Dallas game put him on a short lease IMO. And then letting in two out of four shots in the St.Louis game 5 minutes in sealed the deal. Yea its not enough of a sample size to judge but when your in Irving's position you don't have that much of a window. A goalie like Kipper is allowed to have bad games, simply because we all know that he's proven and will bounce back. Unfortunately for Irving, he doesn't have that luxury. As soon as MacDonald got picked up, we all knew that it was either lights out for Irving or he loses his job.
This is the problem. Why doesn't he have time? The Flames need players like Irving to get their minutes in the big leagues without the pressure of a playoff run. There's lots of time for Irving to play his way into a spot. Kipper's still out and Mac is only a waiver pickup for insurance purposes.

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02-17-2013, 12:19 PM
  #118
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I don't think we can blame the busts that we had in the past on the new management. The Flames do have a history with developing their prospects very poorly, but with only two seasons under his belt, we can't already suggest that Feaster is bad at developing prospects. Looking at the Irving case, it is obvious that they we're never big on him. I don't know exactly what they are thinking, but it seems like they don't see a future with Irving in this organization. Guys like Ramo, Gillies, and Broissoit are the goalie's of the future in their eyes.

As for giving prospects a chance, I am all for it. But right now if this team doesn't win games, the season is over for the Flames, and MacDonald i guess is more "reliable" because of his NHL experience. Developing a goalie is probably the hardest thing for an organization, and given that they want to both win and develop prospects, its hard to depend on a rookie goalie to bring you to the playoffs.
I'm not blaming Feaster for past failures, rather trying to illustrate how poor development is an institutional policy of sorts within the organization. It transcends the methodology of a single coach or a single GM. Look at how Backlund and Baertschi were getting the shaft this season despite a new coach. It's clear therefore that this win-at-all-costs screw-the-future mentality comes from up top, likely from an ownership group who still think it's 1995 when it comes to the NHL and that you can't win and develop prospects at the same time. And until they realize that times have changed, the Flames will continue to see more failures than successes.

And the most mind-boggling thing about this is that the Flames aren't even Stanley Cup contenders. I mean, it's understandable if a team such as the Canucks don't want to promise a rookie like Schultz guaranteed ice-time - they actually have a chance to win the Cup and can't afford to live with rookie growing pains. But for a team like the Flames, who even if they squeeze into the playoffs are likely one and done, it's like cutting off your legs because you can't fit through the door. Even if you get in, you're going to bleed to death. The short sightedness is just such sheer stupidity. What this ownership is doing is making a 3-5 year rebuild a 7-8 year process because when the foundation crumbles, they're going to find that they have nothing to stand on.

As for Irving, he was winning more games then he was losing. I'd call that entirely adequate in hold down the fort until Kipper came back. We don't know if MacDonald or Taylor can do the same in the two weeks or more Kipper's still out.

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02-17-2013, 12:21 PM
  #119
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... we can't already suggest that Feaster is bad at developing prospects.
True. I think one of the problems in the Irving case is actually the AHL coach. For some reason he didn't play the organization's only real goalie prospect and that seems to be one of the things that's set Irving back.

If Feaster is at fault for anything it's not changing the coach in Abbotsford when he had to.

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02-17-2013, 12:23 PM
  #120
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I don't understand this logic. Since when does a single player's development come before the wins of the team? It is a short season and we need to win, Feaster thinks Taylor may give us a better chance than Irving did. Period. We can't score 7 goals every night.
The problem is we were winning with Irving. I don't have a problem with giving another goalie a shot, I have a problem with simply demoting Irving the second he had a bad game but we would have let Kipper play 10 games playing worse hockey.

Again I don't have a problem giving another goalie the start at all, my problem is this team should be working on developing Irving and the best place to develop his confidence and play is in the nhl. If we thought Taylor was nhl ready then don't claim Macdonald just run with Taylor and Irving as Irving has proven to be a backup. If management thought Taylor was better than Irving he should have started a game when he was up and we shouldn't have claimed Macdonald.

My problem isn't with letting another goalie start my problem is this team has few nhl ready young players and instead of developing one of the few that we have we simply claim a veteran who hasn't played in a year in hopes he is better and give up on the young goalie the second he struggles.

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02-17-2013, 12:26 PM
  #121
Mike Jones
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He was designated the 3rd stringer before the AHL season in even started. He lost his starter's job last season only after being shuttled back and forth between the NHL and the AHL - before that, he was easily the best goalie on the Heat. Do prospects need to earn their position? Yes. At the same, they need to be given the opportunity to earn that position. The Flames and seemingly a lot of fans here, don't understand that.

Again, has Hudlinator illustrated, there's a very clear fallacy with the Flames mentality (both with the fans and management) when it comes to developing prospects but also winning. Contrary to what the Flames believe, you can do both at the same time. Well, at least you can if your organization isn't run by inept stooges who can't let their ego get out of the way. Look at New Jersey; they're trying to win but they're not afraid to give their prospects actual opportunities in the NHL to see what they can do. Look at the role Henrique played for them in his rookie season. Look at what Kreider did for the NYR last post-season. Every team has cases like these. Well, except the Flames. I wonder why?

The reality is, there isn't a team in the NHL as bad the Flames when it comes to drafting and developing prospects and there's a reason for that - this organization doesn't understand the development process at all and refuses to even try to. It's not a coincidence or just poor luck that the Flames seem to have so many first 'busts,' it's a self-inflicting cycle of misery as the organization refuses to adapt to the reality of good development.
This is a good post.

I don't see anything wrong with winning at the development team level but the priority still has to be on getting players ready for the NHL. Maybe it's best to call them 1 (Player development) and 1A (Winning) priorities. Abbotsford is a great example of this as they are currently winning a lot (Except last night) but really only have one or two decent prospects on the roster. I know the organization thinks a lot of the coach but he seems to be winning with veterans, retreads and "never were's". If I'm management I'm asking the serious question - can this guy really deliver the players we need for the NHL roster?

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02-17-2013, 12:29 PM
  #122
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As I understand it, one of Irving/Karlsson was slotted to be the backup in Calgary this year, and that's why neither were playing regularly (or in Karlsson's case, not at all) in Abbotsford. Irving just got into the odd game there to keep the rust off. If Irving truly couldn't garner even regular backup duty in Abby, there's no way he would have made the Flames. Do I have this right?
The Flames have never said it, but it's the impression I've gotten from friends and family that follow the Heat very closely back home

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02-17-2013, 12:31 PM
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I'm not blaming Feaster for past failures, rather trying to illustrate how poor development is an institutional policy of sorts within the organization. It transcends the methodology of a single coach or a single GM. Look at how Backlund and Baertschi were getting the shaft this season despite a new coach. It's clear therefore that this win-at-all-costs screw-the-future mentality comes from up top, likely from an ownership group who still think it's 1995 when it comes to the NHL and that you can't win and develop prospects at the same time. And until they realize that times have changed, the Flames will continue to see more failures than successes.

And the most mind-boggling thing about this is that the Flames aren't even Stanley Cup contenders. I mean, it's understandable if a team such as the Canucks don't want to promise a rookie like Schultz guaranteed ice-time - they actually have a chance to win the Cup and can't afford to live with rookie growing pains. But for a team like the Flames, who even if they squeeze into the playoffs are likely one and done, it's like cutting off your legs because you can't fit through the door. Even if you get in, you're going to bleed to death. The short sightedness is just such sheer stupidity. What this ownership is doing is making a 3-5 year rebuild a 7-8 year process because when the foundation crumbles, they're going to find that they have nothing to stand on.

As for Irving, he was winning more games then he was losing. I'd call that entirely adequate in hold down the fort until Kipper came back. We don't know if MacDonald or Taylor can do the same in the two weeks or more Kipper's still out.
I agree.

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02-17-2013, 12:40 PM
  #124
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You make it sound like there's something wrong with cheering on a player your favourite team has drafted and developed and given a chance to play.

What you're watching is a young goalie trying to find his way in the league. There are going to be ups and downs. There are going to be games when he's back on the bench after bad goals. The problem with Flames' management right now is that they don't seem to be living in the real world and rebuilding the way they should. They don't even seem to understand how a development system works.

Irving has been given a chance and has shown that he can be as good, bad, and ugly as any other young goalie. I don't know why fans and his team have given up on him so badly so quickly.
Absolutely nothing wrong, but as Hayward suggests, his viewpoint might be skewed because he is a huge Irving fan as he put it. I've traditionally been more cautious about drafting goalies in the first round, and Irving has been no exception, he possibly could've been the product of a very good defensive Silvertips teams.

What people are forgetting is that Irving can easily come back up if Taylor doesn't do well. He doesn't need to pass through waivers unless he plays a certain amount of games or stays on the pro roster for 30 cumulative days.

This isn't the end of Irving yet, if he still has something to show we will likely see it again soon if Taylor doesn't do well.

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02-17-2013, 12:42 PM
  #125
Flames92
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This is the problem. Why doesn't he have time? The Flames need players like Irving to get their minutes in the big leagues without the pressure of a playoff run. There's lots of time for Irving to play his way into a spot. Kipper's still out and Mac is only a waiver pickup for insurance purposes.
Management made it specifically clear when they picked up MacDonald that it was going to be a competition between him and Irving. They want to give MacDonald a good shot here, and they didn't sign Taylor for no reason. They want to see what he can do as well. For all we know Irving can get called up after 3-4 games and he's got another shot. I have no problem with this, they should be allowed to explore all their options.


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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I'm not blaming Feaster for past failures, rather trying to illustrate how poor development is an institutional policy of sorts within the organization. It transcends the methodology of a single coach or a single GM. Look at how Backlund and Baertschi were getting the shaft this season despite a new coach. It's clear therefore that this win-at-all-costs screw-the-future mentality comes from up top, likely from an ownership group who still think it's 1995 when it comes to the NHL and that you can't win and develop prospects at the same time. And until they realize that times have changed, the Flames will continue to see more failures than successes.

And the most mind-boggling thing about this is that the Flames aren't even Stanley Cup contenders. I mean, it's understandable if a team such as the Canucks don't want to promise a rookie like Schultz guaranteed ice-time - they actually have a chance to win the Cup and can't afford to live with rookie growing pains. But for a team like the Flames, who even if they squeeze into the playoffs are likely one and done, it's like cutting off your legs because you can't fit through the door. Even if you get in, you're going to bleed to death. The short sightedness is just such sheer stupidity. What this ownership is doing is making a 3-5 year rebuild a 7-8 year process because when the foundation crumbles, they're going to find that they have nothing to stand on.

As for Irving, he was winning more games then he was losing. I'd call that entirely adequate in hold down the fort until Kipper came back. We don't know if MacDonald or Taylor can do the same in the two weeks or more Kipper's still out.
Going into the season they placed Irving on waivers. I think that goes to show that management does not have high expectations for him. And the fact that he cleared shows even more that the rest of the league doesn't seem to see anything in him as well. If 29 other teams aren't open to giving him a shot we can't just go and blame the flames organization for bad asset management. If he is placed on waivers and clears I don't see how we're viewing him as the future goaltender of this club. With that said, there's no point of putting him in there for development if he has most likely no future with this team. I agree that MacDonald or Taylor might not be any better but they might as well give them a shot.

I get the point that you're trying to make here and we should be seeing this kind of development with our players, like Brodie, Backlund, Baerstchi. But as a goaltending stand point, management is bigger on the goalies we have in the minor system and don't see a point in developing Irving when he will probably be replaced and they can put in a more reliable goalie now to win games. Im not saying MacDonald will be better but we'll never know unless we try.

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