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Mason Raymond appreciation thread!

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:02 AM
  #76
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
It's on nhl.com. You can play around with the buttons and it shows a variety of stats for different years.

On just a per 82 game basis, he scored 35 ESP in 2009-10, 37 ESP in 10-11, and 27 ESP in 11-12. So right around the 30 point range. This year he's right back up to 34 per 82, though it is only 12 games in.

But yeah, when fully healthy his ES production is very similar to that of Higgins and Hansen - about 35+ points.


Which is why if it came down to it, you have to think Gillis retains Higgins over Raymond. Higgins does a better job away from the puck, especially on the wall. He would fare much better in tight games.


I'm enjoying what Raymond is doing thus far, but I don't expect him to be a Canuck past this season. He'll get a good contract somewhere else for sure...

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02-14-2013, 09:09 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Hes not a third liner but I dont think you believe that anyways. Hes been playing with Kesler for a few years now.

I think we dump our 4.25 mil 6th defense man instead of someone who has top end NHL speed and skill to boot. You dont just let a guy like Raymond walk. Replace him with whom?

The team is missing a dimension without Raymond. You aint even talking about trading the guy either. You are talking ....let him walk for nothing. Its just not happening. Its my belief Gillis is tired (like all GMs) of having to tap dance other GMs to get quality players or convince some guy to come here cheap.

Just re sign Raymond instead.



The team has to move Ballard and Luongo, as well as clear the 6m taken up by Raymond+Malhotra+Alberts just to get under the 64.3m cap (leaves them with roughly 2m in cap space if they do all those moves).


In the end, it will come down to Raymond vs. Higgins. My best is that they retain Higgins. He'll likely be cheaper, and he plays a more robust game. Raymond will get at least 3m. Pricing himself out of VAN.


Unfortunately, short of trading Raymond by the deadline, they will let him walk for nothing. Contending teams do this all the time. They'll use Raymond for another run instead of dealing him.

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02-14-2013, 09:39 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The team has to move Ballard and Luongo, as well as clear the 6m taken up by Raymond+Malhotra+Alberts just to get under the 64.3m cap (leaves them with roughly 2m in cap space if they do all those moves).


In the end, it will come down to Raymond vs. Higgins. My best is that they retain Higgins. He'll likely be cheaper, and he plays a more robust game. Raymond will get at least 3m. Pricing himself out of VAN.


Unfortunately, short of trading Raymond by the deadline, they will let him walk for nothing. Contending teams do this all the time. They'll use Raymond for another run instead of dealing him.
Nope. After dropping Luongo and Ballad and making realistic depth additions/re-signings of cheap roster players like Lappy/Tanev (I've posted rosters a few times), the Canucks would be able to add or re-sign a couple 3-ish million dollar players, one of which could be Raymond, provided Gillis was inclined.

Most of it will come down to what happens with free agent costs. He may even be able to leverage the dropping cap to get Raymond on a sweetheart deal.

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02-14-2013, 10:30 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Nope. After dropping Luongo and Ballad and making realistic depth additions/re-signings of cheap roster players like Lappy/Tanev (I've posted rosters a few times), the Canucks would be able to add or re-sign a couple 3-ish million dollar players, one of which could be Raymond, provided Gillis was inclined.

Most of it will come down to what happens with free agent costs. He may even be able to leverage the dropping cap to get Raymond on a sweetheart deal.



Technically, you are correct _IF_ Raymond takes about 3m. With my estimation of it, the Canucks are left with about 2.5m in cap space with Higgins at 2.5m and Lapierre at 1.5m. Coupled with the raises to Edler and Burrows, and you have about 2.5m left.



Now Raymond essentially replaces a 1m depth player with a 3m salary (assuming you get him at 3m). As a result, you push to about 500k~ space left. Technically, they could do it, with a few dollars displaced here or there. But it really comes down to Raymond taking 3m, and I don't see him doing that. So I am concluding that he will walk regardless.

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02-14-2013, 10:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by GoTeamDom View Post
I've done a full 180 on this guy, and I think he's invaluable. A lot of this optimism stems from Schroeder being a legitimate centre too.

That being said, we gotta shed salary with the cap coming down 6m and Burrows and Edler adding 4.25m to the cap. So we gotta shed $10.25m of salary, and I don't see him coming back.
The way I see it is that it's a choice of three from Luongo, Schneider, Booth, Ballard, Raymond.

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02-14-2013, 11:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Technically, you are correct _IF_ Raymond takes about 3m. With my estimation of it, the Canucks are left with about 2.5m in cap space with Higgins at 2.5m and Lapierre at 1.5m. Coupled with the raises to Edler and Burrows, and you have about 2.5m left.



Now Raymond essentially replaces a 1m depth player with a 3m salary (assuming you get him at 3m). As a result, you push to about 500k~ space left. Technically, they could do it, with a few dollars displaced here or there. But it really comes down to Raymond taking 3m, and I don't see him doing that. So I am concluding that he will walk regardless.
If Lappy doesn't resign for 1 he's gone. They're not going to waste surplus value on him, I don't think. Same for Higgins. Good/useful player, but if he's not willing to sign for below market value like he did last time, I don't see them retaining him. It's going to be a tight squeeze this summer, and third/fourth line veterans will feel that pinch. Just my opinion, of course.

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02-14-2013, 11:22 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
If Lappy doesn't resign for 1 he's gone. They're not going to waste surplus value on him, I don't think. Same for Higgins. Good/useful player, but if he's not willing to sign for below market value like he did last time, I don't see them retaining him. It's going to be a tight squeeze this summer, and third/fourth line veterans will feel that pinch. Just my opinion, of course.

Hey, I'm all for retaining everything this team can retain. If Gilman finds a way, I'm on board. It would be great to only lose Ballard and Luongo from this year's roster, essentially. Tough work ahead for the brass.

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02-14-2013, 11:29 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by jimmythescot View Post
The way I see it is that it's a choice of three from Luongo, Schneider, Booth, Ballard, Raymond.
Luongo is going he asked for a trade after Schneider started in the playoffs. He does not want to be a backup in the playoffs. Great he is doing well. Schneider makes 1.3 million less also is 7 years younger. I would drop the forwards Booth and Raymond before Ballard now. Booth needs to show something right now.

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02-14-2013, 12:12 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Hey, I'm all for retaining everything this team can retain. If Gilman finds a way, I'm on board. It would be great to only lose Ballard and Luongo from this year's roster, essentially. Tough work ahead for the brass.
At very least Lu and KB4, but Alberta and Malhotra too. Hopefully the lowered cap is enough to get both Higgins and Raymond to stay for less, even if they are still getting raises though I could see a team with space like CBJ or NYI throw money at them.

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02-14-2013, 12:34 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
Luongo is going he asked for a trade after Schneider started in the playoffs. He does not want to be a backup in the playoffs. Great he is doing well. Schneider makes 1.3 million less also is 7 years younger. I would drop the forwards Booth and Raymond before Ballard now. Booth needs to show something right now.
He said he would accept a trade if it was in the team's best interests. That's not asking for a trade.

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02-14-2013, 01:22 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by L4cer8 View Post
He said he would accept a trade if it was in the team's best interests.
I never understand when someone says this. Iginla said something similar last season. Imo, if a player gets traded, his focus would be on his new team's best interests, not his old. As much as my opinion is that the Canucks should move forward with Schneider, I think Luongo should only accept a trade that's right for him.

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02-14-2013, 01:23 PM
  #87
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Re-signing either Higgins or Raymond will depend greatly on how they perform in the playoffs. Whoever steps up the most will be brought back. If Raymond is a dud in the playoffs again I don't want him back, even if he has a good regular season.

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:29 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
I never understand when someone says this. Iginla said something similar last season. Imo, if a player gets traded, his focus would be on his new team's best interests, not his old. As much as my opinion is that the Canucks should move forward with Schneider, I think Luongo should only accept a trade that's right for him.
Wasn't it Sundin who said something about not waiving his NTC in Toronto because he wouldn't want to go to a team that would have to give up roster players to get him?

amievenclose?

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:48 PM
  #89
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I kind of feel like Raymond and Schroeder's chemistry is getting a tad overstated. We haven't seen him play with anyone else of note yet! It's very possible Schroeder is just a good player who's easy to play with, and would click just as much with Kesler, Higgins, Hansen, Kassian, or Booth (well, okay, I'm more skeptical of Booth)

I see no reason to break them up right now, but they definitely shouldn't be attached at the hip long term just yet, IMO.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 02-14-2013 at 10:08 PM.
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Old
02-15-2013, 04:47 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The team has to move Ballard and Luongo, as well as clear the 6m taken up by Raymond+Malhotra+Alberts just to get under the 64.3m cap (leaves them with roughly 2m in cap space if they do all those moves).


In the end, it will come down to Raymond vs. Higgins. My best is that they retain Higgins. He'll likely be cheaper, and he plays a more robust game. Raymond will get at least 3m. Pricing himself out of VAN.


Unfortunately, short of trading Raymond by the deadline, they will let him walk for nothing. Contending teams do this all the time. They'll use Raymond for another run instead of dealing him.
Let me get this straight. You are suggesting they re sign Higgins to let Mason Raymond walk for free. That is deadbolt lousy managing .

then why is AV trying to cement two long term players - Hansen and Schroeder , with Raymond?

Why is Higgins snaking around on the fourth and third line?

Higgins is soft , and has no place in our top 6 . Raymond is younger, way faster, and better defensively.

If they cant keep them both then its Higgins goes. He will be 30 and running out of gas in my opinion. He had some solid 2nd line seasons in montreal . He had 18 goals playing with Kesler .

I would like to keep Higgins but not at the price of Raymond . Sorry.


Last edited by Wizeman*: 02-15-2013 at 04:52 PM.
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02-15-2013, 04:57 PM
  #91
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Higgins is soft? What? In comparison to Raymond? Did I step into a Bizzaro world?

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02-17-2013, 04:37 AM
  #92
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Well, there you have it. Kesler comes back and Higgins starts looking like superman. I don't know how you can keep Raymond over him. If Higgins continues, and he's proven that he can play like this consistently last year with Kesler, then it's not even a question. Like i said a page or two back, it doesn't matter who's better. It's about who plays with Kesler better. Team needs a cheap guy in the top six. You can't pay 3+ million for a 3rd line winger.

You need a playmaker on that line. Booth, raymond and kesler all want to shoot the puck. Maybe Kassian when he starts getting consistent but personally never see any chemistry with the three.


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Old
02-17-2013, 06:52 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Let me get this straight. You are suggesting they re sign Higgins to let Mason Raymond walk for free. That is deadbolt lousy managing .

then why is AV trying to cement two long term players - Hansen and Schroeder , with Raymond?

Why is Higgins snaking around on the fourth and third line?

Higgins is soft , and has no place in our top 6 . Raymond is younger, way faster, and better defensively.

If they cant keep them both then its Higgins goes. He will be 30 and running out of gas in my opinion. He had some solid 2nd line seasons in montreal . He had 18 goals playing with Kesler .

I would like to keep Higgins but not at the price of Raymond . Sorry.



I'm of the opposite view. Raymond's speed doesn't trump the all around versatility of Higgins. Higgins plays much bigger than Raymond, and is a more competent defensive forward. There's no way I give the defensive edge to Raymond. He is simply not strong enough along the wall to be compare. Also, Higgins is a better passer and a more efficient, heady player.


The major issue with Higgins is his offensive consistency. He's had some terrible years in that regard, so there remains a cautiousness with giving him a big money long-term contract. Still, with what he's done here, it's safe enough for MG to give him 2nd/3rd line tweener money... something around 2.5m. If he takes it, he stays. If not, then he will walk.


If they can't retain both, Raymond is the one I let walk. Without a doubt.




However, in saying that, hopefully the Canucks can retain both and not have to make that call. If Raymond re-signs at 3m per, and Higgins comes back at 2.4m per, then it's possible to retain both even under a 64.3m cap.

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02-17-2013, 09:37 AM
  #94
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Raymond's play through the neutral zone doesn't get enough said about it. We want to be a possession team, we need guys that can get the puck from our end into theirs. I also think the chemistry between Raymond and Schroeder (if they keep it up) is worth investing in.

That said, I tend to agree with Bleach. Higgins brings something we need more of. He can and will grind. He's also the only player on the roster to show chemistry with Kesler imo.

It's looking more and more likely to me that Booth is the odd man out. Raymond 3m + Higgins 2.4m > Booth 4.25m

I'm not a Booth hater at all either, it's just the reality of the situation. Booth is going to have to come back and really play well to change it.

That toe_drag_to_soft_saucer_pass was awesome.

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02-17-2013, 11:50 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Raymond's play through the neutral zone doesn't get enough said about it. We want to be a possession team, we need guys that can get the puck from our end into theirs. I also think the chemistry between Raymond and Schroeder (if they keep it up) is worth investing in.

That said, I tend to agree with Bleach. Higgins brings something we need more of. He can and will grind. He's also the only player on the roster to show chemistry with Kesler imo.

It's looking more and more likely to me that Booth is the odd man out. Raymond 3m + Higgins 2.4m > Booth 4.25m

I'm not a Booth hater at all either, it's just the reality of the situation. Booth is going to have to come back and really play well to change it.

That toe_drag_to_soft_saucer_pass was awesome.
They can keep all three. The only players they have deal are Ballard and Luongo.

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02-17-2013, 12:38 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
They can keep all three. The only players they have deal are Ballard and Luongo.
Are you sure they can keep Raymond at $3mil, Booth at $4.2mil and Higgins at $2.5mil?

How much would that allot for Ballard's replacement?

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02-17-2013, 12:52 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Are you sure they can keep Raymond at $3mil, Booth at $4.2mil and Higgins at $2.5mil?

How much would that allot for Ballard's replacement?
Yup, I posted a lineup with both in the armchair thread. They can do it.

Ballards replacement would have to be about 1m tops. Tight fit.

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02-17-2013, 12:55 PM
  #98
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They can keep all three. The only players they have deal are Ballard and Luongo.
I'd rather have Ballard as a 6th defensemen then Booth as a 10th forward.

Sedin/Sedin/Burrows
Higgins/Kesler/Kassian
Raymond/Schroeder/Hansen

Can Booth crack that top 9? I guess we'll see.

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02-17-2013, 12:59 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Raymond's play through the neutral zone doesn't get enough said about it. We want to be a possession team, we need guys that can get the puck from our end into theirs. I also think the chemistry between Raymond and Schroeder (if they keep it up) is worth investing in.

That said, I tend to agree with Bleach. Higgins brings something we need more of. He can and will grind. He's also the only player on the roster to show chemistry with Kesler imo.

It's looking more and more likely to me that Booth is the odd man out. Raymond 3m + Higgins 2.4m > Booth 4.25m

I'm not a Booth hater at all either, it's just the reality of the situation. Booth is going to have to come back and really play well to change it.

That toe_drag_to_soft_saucer_pass was awesome.
I was going to post pretty much exactly this. Higgins and Raymond (this season, and during his other non-broken-neck seasons) both show intangibles we need on our 2nd and 3rd lines. Booth, while having been a decent player, hasn't separated himself as someone who needs to be on this team to make it click.

I think the thing I like best about Higgins and Raymond are their abilities to create turnovers, though in different ways. Higgins digs pucks out deep in the offensive zone that many guys in the league can't (or won't) and Raymond takes a lot of people off guard with his speed - intercepting passes guys don't think can be picked off, or chasing down guys who think they can't be caught.

When Raymond loses a step off his speed he will be worse than average. That will come with age, I'm certain. I think late-career Raymond will be what we saw after his neck injury. But as long as he's got his speed, I think he's a fairly unique asset.

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02-17-2013, 01:00 PM
  #100
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I'd rather have Ballard as a 6th defensemen then Booth as a 10th forward.

Sedin/Sedin/Burrows
Higgins/Kesler/Kassian
Raymond/Schroeder/Hansen

Can Booth crack that top 9? I guess we'll see.
You have Higgins in Booth's spot. I'm guessing once he's back this year, he'll show why he's a top 6 forward.

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