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Do you fire Laviolette? (Philadelphia Daily News article dated March 12, 2013)

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02-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Haha how'd you get that Homer will trade Giroux out of that?
Are you serious? Panic trades are Holmgren's MO. He's guaranteed us at least one every year; sometimes they work out, and other times... not so much.

*2007-Jul-01 Traded Joni Pitkanen from Philadelphia Flyers with Geoff Sanderson and round 3 pick in the 2009 draft to Edmonton Oilers for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul

*2008-Nov-07 Traded Steve Downie from Philadelphia Flyers with Steve Eminger and round 4 pick in the 2009 draft (Alex Hutchings) to Tampa Bay Lightning for Matt Carle and round 3 pick in the 2009 draft (Simon Bertilsson)

*2009-Mar-04 Traded Scottie Upshall from Philadelphia Flyers with round 2 pick in the 2011 draft to Phoenix Coyotes for Daniel Carcillo

*2010-Jul-19 Traded Simon Gagne from Philadelphia Flyers to Tampa Bay Lightning for Matt Walker and round 4 pick in the 2011 draft

*2011-Jun-23 Traded Jeff Carter from Philadelphia Flyers to Columbus Blue Jackets for Jakub Voracek, round 1 pick in the 2011 draft (Sean Couturier) and round 3 pick in the 2011 draft (Nick Cousins)

*2011-Jun-23 Traded Mike Richards from Philadelphia Flyers with Rob Bordson to Los Angeles Kings for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn and round 2 pick in the 2012 draft

*2012-Jun-12 Traded James VanRiemsdyk from Philadelphia Flyers to Toronto Maple Leafs for Luke Schenn

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02-17-2013, 12:21 PM
  #527
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There was reasoning behind all those trades though. Fail to see it with Giroux. Relax.

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02-17-2013, 12:22 PM
  #528
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No way Giroux gets traded. Richards and Carter were top talents, but Homer picked to keep the coach over the players that time around. Those two players weren't buying into his system and were shipped off. Homer even got good talent in return for the both of them. I would trade Downie for Carle any day of the week.

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02-17-2013, 12:26 PM
  #529
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It's easier to fire a coach than to fix the myriad of comingled offensive and defensive issues that have plagued this hockey club. Snider is an impatient owner and Philly has an impatient fanbase. So it is fair game to start being concerned about how much more leeway Laviolette will be given to work out solutions.

The problems with this team arent all on Lavy. Holmgren should be sharing some of the heat for whats going on.

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02-17-2013, 12:33 PM
  #530
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I also think Lavyo will be fire soon. But who will take the job ..... Jacques Martin ? Hahaha

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02-17-2013, 12:38 PM
  #531
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Keep Lavy.

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02-17-2013, 12:44 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
No way Giroux gets traded. Richards and Carter were top talents, but Homer picked to keep the coach over the players that time around.
And we see how that's worked out thus far. The fanbase is calling for his head a little over a year later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
Homer even got good talent in return for the both of them.
How could he not have?

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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
I would trade Downie for Carle any day of the week
That makes one of us.

There has been, going back for years, way too many supporters in this city of GMs who make moves just for the sake of making moves. Throwing money at the biggest name available doesn't mean you want to win more than the next franchise or GM.

Holmgren made our bed and chose Laviolette to lie in it. Because he chose Laviolette last time and overhauled the roster for him, I'm thinking he'll give him the rest of the season to try and sort it out. In any case, I don't think this franchise has much more than a puncher's chance until there's a change at the top.

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02-17-2013, 12:47 PM
  #533
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Id like for them to keep losing like they are right now and then in the offseason get rid of homer and bring in a gm from outside the team. them he can decide on Lavy.

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02-17-2013, 12:56 PM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
And we see how that's worked out thus far. The fanbase is calling for his head a little over a year later..
I was on the side of getting rid of Lavy back then.

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02-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #535
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Yea, so we fire Lavy, who we hiring? I can see them putting in Berube or Tocchet. Same team that loves "staying in the family"

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02-17-2013, 01:12 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Yea, so we fire Lavy, who we hiring? I can see them putting in Berube or Tocchet. Same team that loves "staying in the family"
Melrose?

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02-17-2013, 01:12 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Do the Devils have top-end talent? Absolutely not. On paper, our roster is better than theirs. The difference is they play a system that works and the players are 100% behind the coach.
Not to discount your point about the need for players to buy in, because it's 100% valid IMO, but . . .Kovalchuck and Clarkson are top-end talent. Additionally the talent they do have is under rated. They're a talented bunch, it's just spread consistently through out their ranks.

There are 30 head coaches in the NHL who know about systems and they could all tell you what NJ's is and how to best prepare for it. The trick is in getting players that can execute it. NJ drafts to their system and coaches to their system. If you can execute any coaching philosophy at that high a level you'll have success.

IMO that's where Laviolette is having trouble. There seems to be a lack of consistency in terms of game plan, an on-ice identity. I don't think that's a big problem if you have a consistent roster with fairly consistent lines. Players will figure one another out, and develop a sort of system of their own. The roster turnover here is too much for that sort of chemistry to develop to a high level among players, and it's probably too much turn over to really get a group executing a coach-set on-ice agenda at a high level.

I think getting a short camp with a lot of new faces hasn't helped his early results this year verus rosters that may have a more consistent roster/style. For what it's worth the level of decisiveness with the puck and off of it in the offensive zone seems to have increased on most of the lines over the last few games. I actually thought the team looked good against NJ. Last night as an effort issue. This next ten games or so once Hartnell comes back are the make or break ones that really tell us who this team is IMO.

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02-17-2013, 01:14 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Melrose?
When we play the Pens, he would purposely let Crosby score like a million goals. Dude has an unhealthy Crosby obsession.

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02-17-2013, 01:17 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
When we play the Pens, he would purposely let Crosby score like a million goals. Dude has an unhealthy Crosby obsession.
This is true, and it's something you have to weigh against how badly you want a coach with a terrific head of hair.

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02-17-2013, 01:26 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Are you serious? Panic trades are Holmgren's MO. He's guaranteed us at least one every year; sometimes they work out, and other times... not so much.

*2007-Jul-01 Traded Joni Pitkanen from Philadelphia Flyers with Geoff Sanderson and round 3 pick in the 2009 draft to Edmonton Oilers for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul

*2008-Nov-07 Traded Steve Downie from Philadelphia Flyers with Steve Eminger and round 4 pick in the 2009 draft (Alex Hutchings) to Tampa Bay Lightning for Matt Carle and round 3 pick in the 2009 draft (Simon Bertilsson)

*2009-Mar-04 Traded Scottie Upshall from Philadelphia Flyers with round 2 pick in the 2011 draft to Phoenix Coyotes for Daniel Carcillo

*2010-Jul-19 Traded Simon Gagne from Philadelphia Flyers to Tampa Bay Lightning for Matt Walker and round 4 pick in the 2011 draft

*2011-Jun-23 Traded Jeff Carter from Philadelphia Flyers to Columbus Blue Jackets for Jakub Voracek, round 1 pick in the 2011 draft (Sean Couturier) and round 3 pick in the 2011 draft (Nick Cousins)

*2011-Jun-23 Traded Mike Richards from Philadelphia Flyers with Rob Bordson to Los Angeles Kings for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn and round 2 pick in the 2012 draft

*2012-Jun-12 Traded James VanRiemsdyk from Philadelphia Flyers to Toronto Maple Leafs for Luke Schenn
Pitkanen asked to be traded, what can you do?

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02-17-2013, 01:31 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
I was on the side of getting rid of Lavy back then.
Then why are you defending homer now?

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02-17-2013, 01:35 PM
  #542
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Meltzer is spot on in his article on how this organization is run from the GM on up. It hasnt changed in decades. I doubt it will anytime soon.
Lets just fire the coach. Yup, that will just solve everything.

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02-17-2013, 01:35 PM
  #543
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I really have a hard time blaming Lavy for the way this team has been playing. He's been given a roster that is the exact opposite of what he needs to succeed in his style. They have a relatively immobile defense that can't activate in the offensive zone and wingers that play smaller than he needs. Most of that falls on Homer. He knows who Lavy is and how he coaches. Lavy could adjust somewhat, but he certainly can't deviate too much from a plan that he's used in all three of his coaching positions in the NHL. Unfortunately, Lavy will probably be the first to go, but it should be Homer and then a new GM that can decide on Lavy's fate.

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02-17-2013, 01:38 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Do the Devils have top-end talent? Absolutely not. On paper, our roster is better than theirs. The difference is the play a system that works and the players are 100% behind the coach.
Winner winner chicken dinner

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02-17-2013, 01:40 PM
  #545
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I really have a hard time blaming Lavy for the way this team has been playing. He's been given a roster that is the exact opposite of what he needs to succeed in his style. They have a relatively immobile defense that can't activate in the offensive zone and wingers that play smaller than he needs. Most of that falls on Homer. He knows who Lavy is and how he coaches. Lavy could adjust somewhat, but he certainly can't deviate too much from a plan that he's used in all three of his coaching positions in the NHL. Unfortunately, Lavy will probably be the first to go, but it should be Homer and then a new GM that can decide on Lavy's fate.
the senile old man who owns the team wont fire Holmgren. He will fire the guy that wasnt orginally in the "Flyers family"
Thats the "Flyer way"

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02-17-2013, 01:41 PM
  #546
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A new coach isn't going to mature the young core or get the impact players needed on the blue line.
no but it can get the guys that are on the team to play better. we've all seen this team play very well for short periods of time (10 minutes, a period or two even a whole 60 minutes once this season) so why aren't they out there doing it consistently. you can tell they aren't skating or going all out on every shift and this consistency problem has been here for a couple yrs now. all that would change with the right coach. a few better periods or a goal or two here and there as a result and he could easily be looking at a 8-7-1 record instead of a 6-9-1 which in this shortened season is a huge difference. If Lavy could get them to play with some fire or some semblance of constancy most wouldn't suggest he be fired even if the record was the same. Its the fact that he can't get his team to to play a full 60 minutes.

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Holmgren should be grateful that signing a 38-year old Jagr fresh out of the KHL didn't blow up in his ****ing face, given the risk involved. And that Hartnell, Giroux, Simmonds, and Talbot all had career years just out of the blue like that. And that Couturier and Read turned out to be the studs they were for this club when two years ago they were on literally no one's radar. I swear on Christ's bloody cross, if that idiot trades Giroux the same way he traded Gagne, Richards, Carter, etc. there's nothing that'll save his job because this mess... this has his finger prints all over it, and no one else's. Everyone is doing the most they can with what they can (which isn't that much).
i agree he got lucky in some regards but give him credit where credit is due. Jagr was still a very good player a few years ago in the NHL and he started a new off season work out regimen that let him produce in the 2nd best league in the world. It wasn't exactly a stretch to say he would be ok in the NHL. The team had confidence in Giroux getting better and i know i did too i just didn't expect him to toss up 93 points but 80 from the previous yrs 76 was more then reasonable. Read was just good scouting, that didn't have much to do with Holmgren imo just the Flyers scouts ability as a whole to recognize the potential in young two-way forwards. Couturier on the other hand you say was on nobodies radar two years ago? he was ranked to go 1st overall about that time, Homer got lucky that he fell so far nothing else. i will give you that we lucked out in that simmonds and talbot had career years. but anyway out of all that was said how did you get that Giroux is gonna be traded?

I also love how we have this young core that everyone was so excited about a year ago and now we're in a "mess". the team has a hole or two and in my opinion a coaching problem. everyone needs to calm down.

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Do the Devils have top-end talent? Absolutely not. On paper, our roster is better than theirs. The difference is the play a system that works and the players are 100% behind the coach.
you could argue that we have the better line-up and more depth. i was just talking about this

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
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It's easier to fire a coach than to fix the myriad of comingled offensive and defensive issues that have plagued this hockey club. Snider is an impatient owner and Philly has an impatient fanbase. So it is fair game to start being concerned about how much more leeway Laviolette will be given to work out solutions.

The problems with this team arent all on Lavy. Holmgren should be sharing some of the heat for whats going on.
some, absolutely. a good portion should also be put on Snider if you wanna be fair as i think he's pressured Holmgren into making some moves in the past (trades and signings). but i still don't see a reason even with our injuries why this team shouldn't at least be playing with some passion and i think that comes down to the coach, fair or not it's his responsibility to get the guys to play like they are capable and he's not doing that.

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Yea, so we fire Lavy, who we hiring? I can see them putting in Berube or Tocchet. Same team that loves "staying in the family"
i would like to see Tocchet take a shot at it. the team would surely play a full 60-minutes at the very least which is all i've asked for this entire season considering the injuries and holes in the line-up.

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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I really have a hard time blaming Lavy for the way this team has been playing. He's been given a roster that is the exact opposite of what he needs to succeed in his style. They have a relatively immobile defense that can't activate in the offensive zone and wingers that play smaller than he needs. Most of that falls on Homer. He knows who Lavy is and how he coaches. Lavy could adjust somewhat, but he certainly can't deviate too much from a plan that he's used in all three of his coaching positions in the NHL. Unfortunately, Lavy will probably be the first to go, but it should be Homer and then a new GM that can decide on Lavy's fate.
so change. now teams have to go out and get players to match their coaches playing style? a good coach when he has quality players, which the flyers do, can implement a system that will make the team successful. not only does lavy not change/adapt but his players are taking shifts off constantly.

longest post ever?


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02-17-2013, 01:48 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
Then why are you defending homer now?
This is still a good team. I do truly think this will be Lavy's last season with this team because Homer went out and brought in players that just does not fit into his style of play that he wants from his players. If the team does turn it around and makes the playoffs will Lavy change things up when he faces the Bruins and Devils of the league? I highly doubt it.

Homer built a good team, but he didn't build the right team for this coach.

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02-17-2013, 01:49 PM
  #548
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Melrose?

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02-17-2013, 01:50 PM
  #549
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Pitkanen asked to be traded, what can you do?
Not trade him for a one-dimensional winger coming off a career worst season, and a defensive-defenseman that has one leg out the door, for starters.

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02-17-2013, 01:51 PM
  #550
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no but it can get the guys that are on the team to play better. we've all seen this team play very well for short periods of time (10 minutes, a period or two even a whole 60 minutes once this season) so why aren't they out there doing it consistently. you can tell they aren't skating or going all out on every shift and this consistency problem has been here for a couple yrs now. all that would change with the right coach. a few better periods or a goal or two here and there as a result and he could easily be looking at a 8-7-1 record instead of a 6-9-1 which in this shortened season is a huge difference. If Lavy could get them to play with some fire or some semblance of constancy most wouldn't suggest he be fired even if the record was the same. Its the fact that he can't get his team to to play a full 60 minutes.



i agree he got lucky in some regards but give him credit where credit is due. Jagr was still a very good player a few years ago in the NHL and he started a new off season work out regimen that let him produce in the 2nd best league in the world. It wasn't exactly a stretch to say he would be ok in the NHL. The team had confidence in Giroux getting better and i know i did too i just didn't expect him to toss up 93 points but 80 from the previous yrs 76 was more then reasonable. Read was just good scouting, that didn't have much to do with Holmgren imo just the Flyers scouts ability as a whole to recognize the potential in young two-way forwards. Couturier on the other hand you say was on nobodies radar two years ago? he was ranked to go 1st overall about that time, Homer got lucky that he fell so far nothing else. i will give you that we lucked out in that simmonds and talbot had career years. but anyway out of all that was said how did you get that Giroux is gonna be traded?

I also love how we have this young core that everyone was so excited about a year ago and now we're in a "mess". the team has a whole or two nothing more. everyone needs to calm down.



you could argue that we have the better line-up and more depth. i was just talking about this



some, absolutely. a good portion should also be put on Snider if you wanna be fair as i think he's pressured Holmgren into making some moves in the past (trades and signings). but i still don't see a reason even with our injuries why this team shouldn't at least be playing with some passion and i think that comes down to the coach, fair or not it's his responsibility to get the guys to play like they are capable and he's not doing that.



you are never going to admit that homer is the one blame are you? until he's gone this team is going no where, why is it so hard for you to understand? because these other players will win cups if they get traded, i dont care, i would rather risk that, then seeing this team in dumps for years, i dont know how you want something like this for years.

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