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02-16-2013, 07:07 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not sure what you are trying to argue or ask here..

Plekanec and Eller aren't better than White based on judgment. They are better based on their skills, that are backed up by previous stats.

And I said, individual stats are irrelevant. I even listed an example.
lemme guess, stats such as, points, +/- and so on... so, it's either judgement based or simply redundant.

I mean, you really need advanced stats to know it's harder to play against, lets say, 1st pairing D ? or it's usually easier to play against 4th liners ? seriously...

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02-16-2013, 07:09 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I've already listed the reasons I think he is better. And no, I don't think people watch Phoenix play, so I'm going to stop debating this now.
You've listed ice time and his 8pts. You consider those ''reasons''??

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02-16-2013, 07:26 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
You've listed ice time and his 8pts. You consider those ''reasons''??
No, I described his game somewhere back there.

To get back on topic, I'm really liking the way PK is playing right now. We're just missing a big crease clearing presence on this defense.

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02-16-2013, 07:30 PM
  #304
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I think he has been awesome thus far. He's always had the skills, and now he has a bit more experience and maturity.

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02-16-2013, 09:28 PM
  #305
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Saved a goal against the team tonight. He's looked solid. Main problem I've had is he sometimes precipitates the play instead of being patient. He ends up giving away the puck or just throwing it somewhere no teammates can retrieve it from. Stopped blasting the puck wide of the net with his slapshot and much more patient on the PP now.

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02-16-2013, 09:48 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Saved a goal against the team tonight. He's looked solid. Main problem I've had is he sometimes precipitates the play instead of being patient. He ends up giving away the puck or just throwing it somewhere no teammates can retrieve it from. Stopped blasting the puck wide of the net with his slapshot and much more patient on the PP now.
Subban had a sub par game tonight.

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02-16-2013, 09:54 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Subban had a sub par game tonight.
I think nobody had a sub par game tonight. The only time he's looked bad is when he just threw the puck randomly because he had too much pressure on him. Otherwise he was fine.

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02-16-2013, 10:03 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
I think nobody had a sub par game tonight. The only time he's looked bad is when he just threw the puck randomly because he had too much pressure on him. Otherwise he was fine.
quite the opposite IMO, the only time he looked above average is for 5 minutes in the 2nd (when he saved a goal), otherwise he was far from great.

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02-16-2013, 10:26 PM
  #309
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I thought Subban was good tonight, pretty solid game nothing crazy.

Once he was off the powerplay unit it really shined and got some seriously dangerous pressure.

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02-17-2013, 12:05 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I've seen him play a heck of a lot more than "a few" games Kriss.

I think they'll be better in the long run. That's just my opinion.
Sure, you've seen him play more than a few times.
Just take a look at the board regarding their own team. People here watch pretty much every game the Habs play, yet people have conflicting opinions about players.
Heck, just look at the few comments above regarding PK yesterday. Some think he played well, others think he player poorly.

That's why advanced stats give a better picture than just your eyes.


As for Hamilton or even Jones, what's better than PK? Where do you think PK will cap off if you think they'll be better? And what basis again do you go by to form this opinion? Your eyes and the few times they were placed upon those players?

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02-17-2013, 12:07 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
lemme guess, stats such as, points, +/- and so on... so, it's either judgement based or simply redundant.

I mean, you really need advanced stats to know it's harder to play against, lets say, 1st pairing D ? or it's usually easier to play against 4th liners ? seriously...
Again, what are you arguing about? I don't get it.

No you don't need stats to differ White from Plek. We're talking about OEL and PK.

Everything is measurable.

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02-17-2013, 12:09 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Again, what are you arguing about? I don't get it.

No you don't need stats to differ White from Plek. We're talking about OEL and PK.

Everything is measurable
.
Yup, even the obvious.

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02-17-2013, 12:52 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, you've seen him play more than a few times.
Yes, I have. I've seen him play "a few times" this week alone.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Just take a look at the board regarding their own team. People here watch pretty much every game the Habs play, yet people have conflicting opinions about players.
Heck, just look at the few comments above regarding PK yesterday. Some think he played well, others think he player poorly.
Yes, people's opinions are subjective. I found PK played fine last night, but what am I expecting from him as compared to others' expectations? As long as he isn't trying to do too much, I am happy.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's why advanced stats give a better picture than just your eyes.
I've already explained why I think those "advanced stats" are garbage.

Quote:
I've argued against Corsi stats, and the like, many times. I'm not cherry picking here. It's shocking to me that there are actually knowledgeable hockey fans that think OEL isn't better than PK. I'm assuming the spreadsheet you guys are using as your gospel is from here? http://awinninghabit.com/2012/08/15/...-to-his-peers/

If so,

Please go to this link http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67# and play with the list. Sort it however you want, and have a good laugh at some of the insane discrepancies. Switch it to the playoffs last year and look at how crappy LA guys were ranked. They did pretty badly last year in the playoffs, eh?

How can you look at something like that and believe it is accurate in ranking players from around the league? The only real use I can see from those stats is aiding in evaluating and ranking players on the same team, and even then....
So are you trying to tell me that those stats are the "facts" that back up your claim that PK is better than OEL? Honestly?


How many times have you watched OEL play, really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for Hamilton or even Jones, what's better than PK? Where do you think PK will cap off if you think they'll be better?
I don't know where PK will cap off, but I do know that both off those players are lightyears ahead of PK at the same age. The size/skill/IQ combo that these guys bring is elite. You apparently think that they will cap off asap or what?

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And what basis again do you go by to form this opinion? Your eyes and the few times they were placed upon those players?

Why do you think scouts exist? Why don't the Habs just use behindthenet.ca to grade out all prospects and pros? There is no substitute for watching the game Kriss.

Again, how many times have you watched OEL play to have such a strong opinion either way? To me, it's clear that you don't really know him as a player other than what the boxscore can tell you.

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02-17-2013, 01:15 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
How many times have you watched OEL play, really?
I've watched him play more than a few times.


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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I don't know where PK will cap off, but I do know that both off those players are lightyears ahead of PK at the same age. The size/skill/IQ combo that these guys bring is elite. You apparently think that they will cap off asap or what?
You realize the major contradiction here?
No clue where PK will cap off. For the past 2years, he played as our top Dman and did well. So, the sky is the limit, but no clue as to where he'll actually go.
Yet, you have no problem saying others will be better. No matter where PK caps off, those guys will be better.

Progression isn't linear. It's not because those guys are better at 20 than PK that they will be better than him when they'll be 25 and he'll be 28.

I never talked about them capping off, I'm not the one making claims, you are.
I have no idea if those guys will actually become better than PK or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post

Why do you think scouts exist? Why don't the Habs just use behindthenet.ca to grade out all prospects and pros? There is no substitute for watching the game Kriss.

Again, how many times have you watched OEL play to have such a strong opinion either way? To me, it's clear that you don't really know him as a player other than what the boxscore can tell you.
You realize they made a movie about advanced stats right? You realize the Red Sox won the world series by building their team through them right?
And you know that Gab Desjardins works as a consultant to NHL teams right? But hey what do they know..

There are still things that aren't measured by stats, like skating, reaction time, grit, integrity, attitude, off ice issues, etc. That's why there's still scouts. Stats don't lie, eyes do.

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02-17-2013, 01:54 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I've watched him play more than a few times.
And you don't think he is better than PK? Hmmm.. Sorry, but I really don't believe you.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You realize the major contradiction here?
No clue where PK will cap off. For the past 2years, he played as our top Dman and did well. So, the sky is the limit, but no clue as to where he'll actually go.
Yet, you have no problem saying others will be better. No matter where PK caps off, those guys will be better.
PK did well in that role relative to what anyone should've expected, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that other players, who weren't forced into that situation couldn't be better. I'm not going to argue with you about my thinking Dougie Hamilton will be better than PK, because it's fruitless, it's simply my opinion.

You think trading PK would land us the #1 pick in the draft?
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Progression isn't linear. It's not because those guys are better at 20 than PK that they will be better than him when they'll be 25 and he'll be 28.
No, it's because those guys are MUCH better than PK at the same age. No denying that PK worked really hard and developed a lot after he was drafted, but those are the 2 top defensive prospects there are right now. Dougie is 19 and playing as a top-4 dman on one of the best teams in the league. Seth Jones might be the top pick in one of the top drafts in a long time. You don't think he will be pretty good?
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I never talked about them capping off, I'm not the one making claims, you are. I have no idea if those guys will actually become better than PK or not.
So then what are you doing here? You're all over the place man. By you implying that PK has and will develop more than they will, you are saying that they will cap off. They're way ahead of PK at the same age, so they must cap off almost right away for them not to become better players than him, right? Remember, these are the top, bluechip dmen there are.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You realize they made a movie about advanced stats right? You realize the Red Sox won the world series by building their team through them right?
You realize that this isn't baseball right?! I am a firm believer in Sabremetrics in baseball, but not hockey.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And you know that Gab Desjardins works as a consultant to NHL teams right? But hey what do they know..
So because he may collect data for some NHL teams, Corsi becomes factually accurate in ranking all NHL players relative to one another? Now that's a leap!

Have you visited the link and looked at how whacky it can be? How do you continue to use this as the basis to your argument? OEL is a better player, period!
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There are still things that aren't measured by stats, like skating, reaction time, grit, integrity, attitude, off ice issues, etc. That's why there's still scouts.
Yes, those things and many more. That's my point exactly.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Stats don't lie, eyes do.

Yes my eyes are lying to me Kriss. OEL isn't really making all those plays, PK is!

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02-17-2013, 02:41 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I thought Subban was good tonight, pretty solid game nothing crazy.

Once he was off the powerplay unit it really shined and got some seriously dangerous pressure.
Damn you just couldn't resist.

Subban has been awesome on the PP, cut him some slack.

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02-17-2013, 02:54 PM
  #317
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subban is playing the same way he was under martin.
He's holding back. With Martin it was just cause martin didnt want him to go loose
Now with Therien, its cause he has to get Therien's trust, and if increased ice time is any indication he slowly is.

I think once Therien feels that he's "paid his dues", he's going to let subban play abit more freely.

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02-17-2013, 03:41 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Damn you just couldn't resist.

Subban has been awesome on the PP, cut him some slack.
He has. Although he made some mistake, but only distortion glasses would make someone think that Diaz or Markov also didn't made any mistakes.

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02-17-2013, 03:42 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Damn you just couldn't resist.

Subban has been awesome on the PP, cut him some slack.
not really, but it's not a knock on him as it shows he's trying hard to play a different type of game when paired with Markov on the PP. Learning phase.

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02-17-2013, 05:03 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
And you don't think he is better than PK? Hmmm.. Sorry, but I really don't believe you.
No I don't think he's better, I think they are on par with different styles.
You're the one that insists on one being better, I never said OEL wasn't as good as PK. I think they are very even with just different styles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
PK did well in that role relative to what anyone should've expected, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that other players, who weren't forced into that situation couldn't be better. I'm not going to argue with you about my thinking Dougie Hamilton will be better than PK, because it's fruitless, it's simply my opinion.
No, PK did well period. He did Extra well when you look at the situation he was in and the fact he was a rookie/sophomore.
Yes, other players could be better, others could have done worse either. Nobody here is arguing that PK is the best Dman to have ever lived.


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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
You think trading PK would land us the #1 pick in the draft?
Of course it would. They are junior players, not established NHLers that proved capable of handling top opposition with heavy minutes, in every situation.
Jones is a great prospect, he could become better than PK, he could be worse too.
Obviously you think he will, I think it's way too early to make such a bold prediction.

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
No, it's because those guys are MUCH better than PK at the same age. No denying that PK worked really hard and developed a lot after he was drafted, but those are the 2 top defensive prospects there are right now. Dougie is 19 and playing as a top-4 dman on one of the best teams in the league. Seth Jones might be the top pick in one of the top drafts in a long time. You don't think he will be pretty good?
Again, it's irrelevant. Progression/development isn't linear. It's not because Hamilton is better at 19 than PK was that he will be better at 25 than PK was.
Being better at 19 only means one thing, that Hamilton 19 > PK 19. That's it.
Hamilton 23 ? PK 23.
Time will tell.
Yes, I think Jones will be great. Still doesn't mean he'll be better than PK. Heck, you admitted to not even knowing just how good PK will be. How can you then turn around and say that Jones or Hamilton will be better if you don't even know where PK will go? Makes no sense.
PK has the potential of becoming a franchise D. If he reaches his max potential, non of the guys you mentioned will become better. It will only be a matter of preference.
Just like you can't really argue who's better, Chara, Weber or Keith. They're all on par, it's only about what style you prefer.
Same for before, Niedermayer or Lidstrom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
So then what are you doing here? You're all over the place man. By you implying that PK has and will develop more than they will, you are saying that they will cap off. They're way ahead of PK at the same age, so they must cap off almost right away for them not to become better players than him, right? Remember, these are the top, bluechip dmen there are.
That would only make sense if PK caps off. However, you said you didn't know where PK will cap off. So, makes no sense to say that these guys will be better when you don't even know what's to beat.
I don't think that being better at a younger age necessarily means you will become the better player.

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
So because he may collect data for some NHL teams, Corsi becomes factually accurate in ranking all NHL players relative to one another? Now that's a leap!
I always said stats help paint a better picture. They're all useful but it depends how you want to use them. They can all be diminished too if you don't use them well.

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02-17-2013, 05:42 PM
  #321
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I thought he played well against philly. But he still took one of those needless penalties, that he so often takes.

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02-17-2013, 11:49 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No I don't think he's better, I think they are on par with different styles.
You're the one that insists on one being better, I never said OEL wasn't as good as PK. I think they are very even with just different styles.
I disagree. OEL is clearly better than PK to me.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No, PK did well period. He did Extra well when you look at the situation he was in and the fact he was a rookie/sophomore.
Yes, other players could be better, others could have done worse either. Nobody here is arguing that PK is the best Dman to have ever lived.
Yes other players can and will be better. The guys I mentioned, imo, are those players. Especially OEL who is already one of the top Dmen in the league at 21.

You should check Brodin out as well. Another potentially great one right there. Just a treat to watch at 19.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Of course it would. They are junior players, not established NHLers that proved capable of handling top opposition with heavy minutes, in every situation.
Jones is a great prospect, he could become better than PK, he could be worse too.
Obviously you think he will, I think it's way too early to make such a bold prediction.
I disagree. These are superstar caliber players. PK just isn't that. If we could get the #1 pick in this draft, we'd be stupid not to jump all over it.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Again, it's irrelevant. Progression/development isn't linear. It's not because Hamilton is better at 19 than PK was that he will be better at 25 than PK was.
Being better at 19 only means one thing, that Hamilton 19 > PK 19. That's it.
Hamilton 23 ? PK 23.
Time will tell.
You may need all that time to figure it out, but I don't. He is just so far ahead of PK that it's a no-brainer. A big kid like that, once he fills out he will be a force. He's already got the poise and talent. Barring catastrophe, he will be one of the top guys for a long time.

Jones is something special. He's a freak, and although I like Barkov more at the moment, I think he will be dominant.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, I think Jones will be great. Still doesn't mean he'll be better than PK. Heck, you admitted to not even knowing just how good PK will be. How can you then turn around and say that Jones or Hamilton will be better if you don't even know where PK will go? Makes no sense.
No one knows where PK will end up, but learning "hockey sense" is a hard thing. He's got all the talent of the top guys so, if somehow he has an epiphany and becomes dominant on the mental side, he will surely be considered elite. I just wouldn't bet on that happening.

There are only a select few who show elite hockey sense at such a young age. Brodin, OEL, and to a slightly lesser extent imo, Hamilton have all done that.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
PK has the potential of becoming a franchise D. If he reaches his max potential, none of the guys you mentioned will become better. It will only be a matter of preference.
OEL is a franchise Dman. At 21 years old.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That would only make sense if PK caps off. However, you said you didn't know where PK will cap off. So, makes no sense to say that these guys will be better when you don't even know what's to beat.
I don't think that being better at a younger age necessarily means you will become the better player.
What? PK is not 6'9" still trying to fill out and catch up to NHL speed. He's not going to magically develop into Chelios in the next few years either. Well maybe, but I sincerely doubt it. These guys have multiple Norris potential. They are clearly the best defensemen of their age group. Do you realize that?
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I always said stats help paint a better picture. They're all useful but it depends how you want to use them. They can all be diminished too if you don't use them well.
Dude, you are the one who has been trying to pass your "advanced stats" off as gospel when it comes to ranking players. Obviously they can be useful, but they certainly can be diminished when you try to use them to argue that PK Subban is equal to or better than Oliver Ekman-Larsson.

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02-18-2013, 04:17 AM
  #323
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How is Hamilton at 19 better than PK was at 19?

Hamilton was a +25 with 41 points in 32 OHL games, Subban was a a +47 with 76 points in 56 games.

In short, one can argue that Hamilton has the potential to become PK Subban.

PK also had a better WJC.

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02-18-2013, 05:25 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
How is Hamilton at 19 better than PK was at 19?

Hamilton was a +25 with 41 points in 32 OHL games, Subban was a a +47 with 76 points in 56 games.

In short, one can argue that Hamilton has the potential to become PK Subban.

PK also had a better WJC.
There was a perception at the time that PK was a liability on defense. I think he's proven that those concerns were misguided. Often, when one is dominating offensively people surmise that the player must be sacrificing d in order to produce those numbers. IMO, PK has become better defensively than he is offensively.

His ability to counter attack and keep the puck driving to the other end of the ice is one of the best in the league. You hardly see us pinned in our own zone for prolong bouts with PK on the ice.

His hockey sense tho, like Hank suggests could very well hold him back from becoming one of the premier d in the league imo. He just doesn't have it on the same level as the top 5-10 guys in the league. I don't think hockey sense is something that is likely to develop over time either. I think PK will be relying on outstanding talent and raw ability for most of his career. If he develops the hockey sense of Andrei Markov, he'll be at the top.

Either way, he's one of the top dman already and I'm so glad he's a hab.

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02-18-2013, 05:43 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
There was a perception at the time that PK was a liability on defense. I think he's proven that those concerns were misguided. Often, when one is dominating offensively people surmise that the player must be sacrificing d in order to produce those numbers. IMO, PK has become better defensively than he is offensively.

His ability to counter attack and keep the puck driving to the other end of the ice is one of the best in the league. You hardly see us pinned in our own zone for prolong bouts with PK on the ice.

His hockey sense tho, like Hank suggests could very well hold him back from becoming one of the premier d in the league imo. He just doesn't have it on the same level as the top 5-10 guys in the league. I don't think hockey sense is something that is likely to develop over time either. I think PK will be relying on outstanding talent and raw ability for most of his career. If he develops the hockey sense of Andrei Markov, he'll be at the top.

Either way, he's one of the top dman already and I'm so glad he's a hab.
I agree, there's a stereotype that defenseman with offensive ability lack defensive ability. It's like the stereotype that all good-looking people are stupid, see Hollywood.

I just don't see the criticism of Subban's hockey sense. Can someone post a video of him doing something stupid? I think the issue is that he is aggressive, he moves forward for the attack, and then people think "oh my god he's blowing cover by pinching !!!" , but that's not stupidity, that's aggression.

For me, hockey sense means properly guessing where the other players are and where they're going to be, and I see no evidence PK lacks that. He might lack a sense of his own abilities, for example his failed fight against Marchand, or him taking a long time he needed to work on his own slap shot after a lot of failed shots on the PP last year. That takes time though and now, a mere one year later, he is shooting with more wisdom.

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