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Blues Trade Proposals Part 3

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02-17-2013, 01:27 PM
  #901
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I wondered the same thing. I've seen a bit of O'Reily and his numbers are nothing to write home about. He's still young but is his offense expected to jump? Do some think he will become a game changer?

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02-17-2013, 02:12 PM
  #902
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I wondered the same thing. I've seen a bit of O'Reily and his numbers are nothing to write home about. He's still young but is his offense expected to jump? Do some think he will become a game changer?
If he can be a 60 point player, then his defensive game is what basically makes him one of those elite second line centres. He plays the ideal type of game for our team, and would basically allow us to roll 3 high-end second lines.

It all comes back to what he wants, and everything is guesswork really. I think he'd sign for a good bit less than $5m per year though.

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02-17-2013, 02:22 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by stlweir View Post
I wondered the same thing. I've seen a bit of O'Reily and his numbers are nothing to write home about. He's still young but is his offense expected to jump? Do some think he will become a game changer?
I personally think he's overrated by a longshot.

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02-17-2013, 02:39 PM
  #904
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If he can be a 60 point player, then his defensive game is what basically makes him one of those elite second line centres. He plays the ideal type of game for our team, and would basically allow us to roll 3 high-end second lines.

It all comes back to what he wants, and everything is guesswork really. I think he'd sign for a good bit less than $5m per year though.
He's rejected $3.5 x 2 and $3.4 x 5, so it's not going to be that much less.

I don't see the Blues being interested at prices higher than those. They've consistently signed their own players to contracts no higher than $2.5 (over 1-2 years) in similar circumstances.

Those prices might be a bit outdated, but I still think it's safe to say that the Blues aren't going to trade value to Colorado in order to get the rights to a guy whose contract demands are almost certainly above their comfort level.

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02-17-2013, 02:47 PM
  #905
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He's rejected $3.5 x 2 and $3.4 x 5, so it's not going to be that much less.

I don't see the Blues being interested at prices higher than those. They've consistently signed their own players to contracts no higher than $2.5 (over 1-2 years) in similar circumstances.

Those prices might be a bit outdated, but I still think it's safe to say that the Blues aren't going to trade value to Colorado in order to get the rights to a guy whose contract demands are almost certainly above their comfort level.
Has he rejected $3.4m x 5? I'm sure other deals have been offered, but the only one that the details are known is the $3.5m x 2. I still think he'll end up signing in the $4m-$4.25m range.

If I am right about the money he is looking for, then I think he will be worth it over the course of the contract. I'm just not interested in the baggage he would bring. We can't give a player a long term deal on the back of 1 season while asking the guys we have developed to take a discount.

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02-17-2013, 02:50 PM
  #906
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Has he rejected $3.4m x 5? I'm sure other deals have been offered, but the only one that the details are known is the $3.5m x 2. I still think he'll end up signing in the $4m-$4.25m range.

If I am right about the money he is looking for, then I think he will be worth it over the course of the contract. I'm just not interested in the baggage he would bring. We can't give a player a long term deal on the back of 1 season while asking the guys we have developed to take a discount.
Rotoworld via Denver Post

Quote:
Restricted free agent Ryan O'Reilly has already missed the Colorado Avalanche's first two games.
O'Reilly and the Avalanche seem to be stuck in a staring contest regarding how much his client is worth. O'Reilly's agent recently said that his client isn't looking for $5 million per season despite the rumors to the contrary. However, it's not clear how much O'Reilly does want. The Avalanche have reportedly offered O'Reilly a two-year/$7 million deal and a separate five-year/$17 million contract. Meanwhile, the Avalanche will play again on Thursday.
This one is via the NY Post.

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According to the the New York Post's Larry Brooks, the Rangers "have checked in on" Ryan O'Reilly, "but are very unlikely" to try to work out a deal with the Avalanche.Brooks said it's unclear what the Rangers would have to part with, but it's the salary demands that are most discouraging. O'Reilly, who recorded 55 points a year ago, has rejected Colorado's two-year, $3.5 million offer and five-year one with less annual average salary. Feb 15 - 10:32 AM

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02-17-2013, 02:51 PM
  #907
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It all depends on whether you think it was one season or not. It was actually three seasons. He didn't put up offensive numbers the first two seasons because he was effectively on a McClement/Crombeen type line, but he was exceptional in that role for two seasons. At 18 and 19 in the NHL. They gave him skilled wingers and he blossomed offensively.

Let me put it this way. Watching him last year I was certain I was watching a player who would be the best, most offensively skilled forward were he on the Blues.

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02-17-2013, 03:08 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
It all depends on whether you think it was one season or not. It was actually three seasons. He didn't put up offensive numbers the first two seasons because he was effectively on a McClement/Crombeen type line, but he was exceptional in that role for two seasons. At 18 and 19 in the NHL. They gave him skilled wingers and he blossomed offensively.

Let me put it this way. Watching him last year I was certain I was watching a player who would be the best, most offensively skilled forward were he on the Blues.
I believe in his talent. I think his defensive abilities would shine in this system, but I'm not convinced he would be the same offensively working in a more structured system. Regardless of how the offense translated, though, I think he would be a good fit here.

I simply don't think the Blues are likely to make a move like this given their track record. The contract demands, and the mentality behind it, would be extremely hard for this organization to swallow.

The Blues want to see their players prove it (in terms of production and consistency) before the big payday comes. The Blues have gotten great deals coming off ELCs by getting their players to buy into that concept. O'Reilly hasn't done that yet, and giving him special treatment sends a huge mixed message to the rest of the team even if the raw salary numbers are tolerable (and I'm not convinced they are).

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02-17-2013, 03:16 PM
  #909
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We would rather trade for a center like ROR or should we go after someone who is better offensively and just good defensively? Just wondering, I kind of split on this.

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02-17-2013, 03:29 PM
  #910
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I do agree about the contract issues being potentially disruptive to a carefully designed series of precedents for new contracts. I keep saying "contract issues aside" even though I know it's not something you can really slough off. Tough when a guy is pretty much the perfect fit and final missing piece on the forward lines. One issue is we don't know whether, when he's traded, he'll give a middle finger to the Avs by signing a 4 x 4M deal or something somewhere else, something they'd have paid him.

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02-17-2013, 03:42 PM
  #911
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I do agree about the contract issues being potentially disruptive to a carefully designed series of precedents for new contracts. I keep saying "contract issues aside" even though I know it's not something you can really slough off. Tough when a guy is pretty much the perfect fit and final missing piece on the forward lines. One issue is we don't know whether, when he's traded, he'll give a middle finger to the Avs by signing a 4 x 4M deal or something somewhere else, something they'd have paid him.
I guess you would have to have an agreement with the Avs in principle on a deal and require in the deal that you have an agreement with ROR prior to a deal being made. I have seen the articles too. 5 year $25 million in several and this one...

"Well, he doesn’t have a ton of leverage right now. As an RFA, all he can do is withhold his services, but really he is up against it. Without arbitration rights, the Avalanche are in the driver’s seat. Unless he can force them to trade him. While the Avalanche want to toe the line much like the Canadiens did with P.K. Subban, the O’Reilly camp looks at the Jamie Benn contract (5 years, 26.25 M) as a comparable, and they are not wrong. On the open market, O’Reilly would probably get between $4-5M on a long contract. But alas, it is not an open market and barring an offer sheet out of left field, the options are sign, or sit."

He is the type of player that I want in a Blues uniform, but at what price?

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02-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I guess you would have to have an agreement with the Avs in principle on a deal and require in the deal that you have an agreement with ROR prior to a deal being made. I have seen the articles too. 5 year $25 million in several and this one...

"Well, he doesn’t have a ton of leverage right now. As an RFA, all he can do is withhold his services, but really he is up against it. Without arbitration rights, the Avalanche are in the driver’s seat. Unless he can force them to trade him. While the Avalanche want to toe the line much like the Canadiens did with P.K. Subban, the O’Reilly camp looks at the Jamie Benn contract (5 years, 26.25 M) as a comparable, and they are not wrong. On the open market, O’Reilly would probably get between $4-5M on a long contract. But alas, it is not an open market and barring an offer sheet out of left field, the options are sign, or sit."

He is the type of player that I want in a Blues uniform, but at what price?
Yes, and since O'Reilly is a restricted free agent the Blues could call up his agent and ask what he'd hypothetically sign for right now. So they wouldn't be making a trade for a guy with whom they didn't already have a workable deal in place. This is also good for the Avs because they'll get a higher return. I have a feeling he'd take less with another team than the Avs at this point. Based on nothing other than a gut feeling which could very easily be wrong.

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02-17-2013, 03:58 PM
  #913
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O'Reilly is not someone I would want on this team. His attitude is a huge turnoff, the amount of money he is asking for, and he has had only one real solid season. I understand he may have played with crap players his first 2 years but one good year for points does not warrant what this kid is asking for.

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02-17-2013, 04:01 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Yes, and since O'Reilly is a restricted free agent the Blues could call up his agent and ask what he'd hypothetically sign for right now. So they wouldn't be making a trade for a guy with whom they didn't already have a workable deal in place. This is also good for the Avs because they'll get a higher return. I have a feeling he'd take less with another team than the Avs at this point. Based on nothing other than a gut feeling which could very easily be wrong.
What would it take though, if the stars would line up? Is Perron enough? What would you suggest? He is a center. He won't come cheap...

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02-17-2013, 04:06 PM
  #915
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I think the attitude thing is getting overblown. Who knows what actually happened during negotiations.

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02-17-2013, 04:21 PM
  #916
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What would it take though, if the stars would line up? Is Perron enough? What would you suggest? He is a center. He won't come cheap...
I think if the Blues offered Perron to the Avs they'd have to say yes. They're in a nightmare situation because they're about to lose a cornerstone forward who's younger than Pietrangelo. Perron's a young top-line forward whose shown continual improvement also. He's also on a very good contract.

However, the Blues see Perron the same way. Great contract, locked up key offensive piece. If the Blues made that trade it's:

McDonald-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Steen-Backes-Oshie
Schwartz-Berglund-Stewart

Because I'm firmly in the keep Perron camp, I'd personally be hesitant. But not because O'Reilly wouldn't be a HUGE add. I'd just prefer to find a way to deal other assets. The Blues have more spare quality assets than most teams. You'd be setting up a center scheme for a LONG time with O'Reilly-Backes-Berglund and the Blues do have wingers in the pipeline. It's a give-to-get situation but I'd have to prefer something like Sobotka + Rattie + 1st to trading Perron. Hell, send Lehtera's rights as part of a sweetener (there would be no room for him with the Blues any longer).

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02-17-2013, 04:26 PM
  #917
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Why don't the Blues just focus on keeping their own in Blue next season given that there are 4 RFAs that the team needs to worry about bringing back? Once they figure out a way to keep Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo, Berglund, and Stewart while having an ownership group that can't spend nearly to the cap, then they can worry about adding players with 1 50 point season who are asking for top dollar.

I get it. He would be a nice player to have, but next season with McDonald leaving, either Jaskin or Lehtera taking his place on the roster would be fine with me. If the Blues want to spend more money, they should be looking for defensemen, and this is coming from an Ian Cole fan. They need to replace Russell.

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02-17-2013, 04:28 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
I think if the Blues offered Perron to the Avs they'd have to say yes. They're in a nightmare situation because they're about to lose a cornerstone forward who's younger than Pietrangelo. Perron's a young top-line forward whose shown continual improvement also. He's also on a very good contract.

However, the Blues see Perron the same way. Great contract, locked up key offensive piece. If the Blues made that trade it's:

McDonald-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Steen-Backes-Oshie
Schwartz-Berglund-Stewart

Because I'm firmly in the keep Perron camp, I'd personally be hesitant. But not because O'Reilly wouldn't be a HUGE add. I'd just prefer to find a way to deal other assets. The Blues have more spare quality assets than most teams. You'd be setting up a center scheme for a LONG time with O'Reilly-Backes-Berglund and the Blues do have wingers in the pipeline. It's a give-to-get situation but I'd have to prefer something like Sobotka + Rattie + 1st to trading Perron. Hell, send Lehtera's rights as part of a sweetener (there would be no room for him with the Blues any longer).
I'm just thinking they are going to want a Perron, Berglund or Oshie or Shatty. I don't think Sobotka will get it done. They will want a top 9 guy.

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02-17-2013, 05:04 PM
  #919
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I'm just thinking they are going to want a Perron, Berglund or Oshie or Shatty. I don't think Sobotka will get it done. They will want a top 9 guy.
Depends on what kind of prospect they are getting.
A guy like Jaskins might make them settle for a lesser roster forward(I'd push D'Agostini over Sobotka).

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02-17-2013, 05:08 PM
  #920
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I would much rather give O'Reilly (two-way scoring line core center) 4M in real dollars than Stewart (inconsistent RW third on the depth chart) 4M. That isn't even a close decision.

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02-17-2013, 05:14 PM
  #921
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I'm just thinking they are going to want a Perron, Berglund or Oshie or Shatty. I don't think Sobotka will get it done. They will want a top 9 guy.
If any of those players were traded it would be straight up. Perron is the only one I could see the Blues maybe moving of those you mentioned (though I am against it). But Avs are looking for a roster forward and a strong prospect (per reports). It would work for us if we could give D'Agostini + Rattie but that's clearly not going to be the best offer. I love Sobotka but I have confidence management could find another overachieveing bottom-sixer easier than finding another skilled center. Rattie qualifies as a strong prospect and if Sobotka is less than some teams are offering as roster forward, then certainly the 1st makes it hard to ignore. Remember, the Avs lost Downie for the year and Sobotka isn't as skilled but definitely helps the grit/versatility deficit.

We're obviously all in hypothetical land here.

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02-17-2013, 05:15 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
I think if the Blues offered Perron to the Avs they'd have to say yes. They're in a nightmare situation because they're about to lose a cornerstone forward who's younger than Pietrangelo. Perron's a young top-line forward whose shown continual improvement also. He's also on a very good contract.

However, the Blues see Perron the same way. Great contract, locked up key offensive piece. If the Blues made that trade it's:

McDonald-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Steen-Backes-Oshie
Schwartz-Berglund-Stewart

Because I'm firmly in the keep Perron camp, I'd personally be hesitant. But not because O'Reilly wouldn't be a HUGE add. I'd just prefer to find a way to deal other assets. The Blues have more spare quality assets than most teams. You'd be setting up a center scheme for a LONG time with O'Reilly-Backes-Berglund and the Blues do have wingers in the pipeline. It's a give-to-get situation but I'd have to prefer something like Sobotka + Rattie + 1st to trading Perron. Hell, send Lehtera's rights as part of a sweetener (there would be no room for him with the Blues any longer).
Tarasenko isn't ready for a role like that yet. He's pretty inconsistent defensively, and although he's dynamic with the puck...and has a bright future, he sometimes gets lots on offense (lost in the system and seems hesitant or unsure what he's supposed to do).

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02-17-2013, 05:17 PM
  #923
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Tarasenko isn't ready for a role like that yet. He's pretty inconsistent defensively, and although he's dynamic with the puck...and has a bright future, he sometimes gets lots on offense (lost in the system and seems hesitant or unsure what he's supposed to do).
Just because it's the first line listed doesn't make it the "1st line." Steen-Backes-Oshie I'd still expect to get the most ice time.

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02-17-2013, 05:48 PM
  #924
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I would much rather give O'Reilly (two-way scoring line core center) 4M in real dollars than Stewart (inconsistent RW third on the depth chart) 4M. That isn't even a close decision.
We can agree to disagree on Stewart. His play has definitely turned the corner this year. Someone has to keep Schwartz alive and score goals. It may not be a close decision however, based on how much it would cost you to get him and how much you have to pay him.

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02-17-2013, 05:56 PM
  #925
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Just because it's the first line listed doesn't make it the "1st line." Steen-Backes-Oshie I'd still expect to get the most ice time.
This. The Bashie line probably always be the #1 line in terms of ice time.

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