Boyle was never a sieve, and has much longer history of being top pairing defenceman (6-7 seasons) on successful teams.
Yes, Boyle being a top pairing defenseman for 6-7 seasons is much more impressive than Gonchar, who was only a top pairing defenseman for 12 seasons. Wait, what....
And Boyle was definitely on better teams who made the Cup finals once compared to Gonchar who has only played there 3 times.
Wasn't Boyle a more effective 5 vs 5 player in general though? (as far as being a n1 guy?)
Not according to his ice time.
Gonchar led his team in ES ice time just as much as he did overall ice time. He was 1st in overall time just once more than he was 1st in ES time. Boyle was lower in ES time than overall 3 times.
Looking at Weber, it's pretty hard to argue he's not worthy at this point. He's basically got 4 relevant seasons, but in those 4 seasons he's been 2nd, 2nd, 5th, and 7th in AS voting and 2nd, 2nd, 4th, and 7th in Norris voting.
4 relevant seasons and 3 points in 15 games this season doesn't justify an almost 100 (94) pick jump for me. At this point has he had a better career than guys like Dave Burrows and HHoFer Neil Colville? I don't think so.
Sturm's argument for Weber last year was "how far away is he from Reardon at this point?" and, a year later, he's a year closer... it has to be razor thin by now. I'd like to dogpile on a Leaf Lander modern player pick as much as anyone, but this doesn't seem out of place to me.
Not sure how Boyle is in the Gonchar conversation other than when saying "poor man's Gonchar"...
Sturm's argument for Weber last year was "how far away is he from Reardon at this point?" and, a year later, he's a year closer... it has to be razor thin by now. I'd like to dogpile on a Leaf Lander modern player pick as much as anyone, but this doesn't seem out of place to me.
Not sure how Boyle is in the Gonchar conversation other than when saying "poor man's Gonchar"...
The fact is that with this season he is actually dropping in value and not increasing.
Gonchar led his team in ES ice time just as much as he did overall ice time. He was 1st in overall time just once more than he was 1st in ES time. Boyle was lower in ES time than overall 3 times.
Ice time doesn't mean he's better or more effective, however.
Two-time second all-star at center in 1939 and 1940. He finished third in voting in 1938 behind Apps and Cowley as well.
Following the war Colville moved back to defense making the second all-star team once and finishing tied for 6th in all-star voting another year.
Colville was the third player I decided to research, and I have basically concluded my research on him. There's not a ton of information, but I found some good bits which should add more to our knowledge of this player. I think he has been rather underrated in the ATD to this point. His consolidated AST voting finishes are:
Center: 2, 2, 3
Defense: 4, 7
That's quite an extravagant voting record for this point in the draft, actually. How are you planning to use him, BBS? He was mostly a center, but seems to get used mostly on defense in the ATD. I think he can play both, but would be most interesting at center.
In Reardon's case, I don't see why much credit should be given. He was a pretty nondescript player before he left for the war.
While he was not the elite player he was when he came back, I think he was pretty good the season before he left - top 10 in scoring among defensemen if I remember right.
Not on its own, but that is just one small piece of the puzzle.
Really, I was just showing people that the ''Boyle was a top pairing guy more'' argument was false.
How so. Between lockouts Boyle logged significantly more ES time than Gonchar every season. How can the fact that in 3 years his ES ATOI was 6 seconds lower than his teammate's makes him not a top pairing defenceman (you know pairing means there 2 defenceman on ice).
How so. Between lockouts Boyle logged significantly more ES time than Gonchar every season. How can the fact that in 3 years his ES ATOI was 6 seconds lower than his teammate's makes him not a top pairing defenceman (you know pairing means there 2 defenceman on ice).
You said that Dan Boyle ''has much longer history of being top pairing defenceman''. You also said he has been on for 6-7 seasons, which was not correct. Boyle has been a top pairing defenseman for 10 seasons.
Sergei Gonchar has been a top pairing defenseman for 12 seasons.
Not only does Boyle not have a ''much'' more time as a top pairing guy, he is actually trailing in that department.
You said that Dan Boyle ''has much longer history of being top pairing defenceman''. You also said he has been on for 6-7 seasons, which was not correct. Boyle has been a top pairing defenseman for 10 seasons.
Sergei Gonchar has been a top pairing defenseman for 12 seasons.
Not only does Boyle not have a ''much'' more time as a top pairing guy, he is actually trailing in that department.
You were wrong.
Well, under top pairing defenceman I understand quality, not only quantity.
Sure Gonchar logged the most ice time on Penguins for expample in 2006 or 2007. So what? He was still bad at it. During his time with Capitals, he was said to become soft minutes.
As for Boyle, sorry I fail to see how trailing his linemates by 6 seconds makes not a top pairing defemceman.
Well, under top pairing defenceman I understand quality, not only quantity.
Of course. Now that you have been proven wrong with facts, you are going to fall back on your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoMakc
Sure Gonchar logged the most ice time on Penguins for expample in 2006 or 2007. So what? He was still bad at it. During his time with Capitals, he was said to become soft minutes.
Gonchar led a lot of teams in both TOI and ES TOI. Some bad teams, some good teams, and even some great teams.
He was so bad at it that his Norris voting record demolishes Dan Boyles...
It was said? Who said that? Not like it matters, since its a load of crap. It is pretty tough to play soft minutes when you are leading your team in even strength ice time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoMakc
As for Boyle, sorry I fail to see how trailing his linemates by 6 seconds makes not a top pairing defemceman.
I fail to see that too.... and that is why I said he has been a top pairing guy for 10 seasons. You are the one who said he has only been one for 6-7.
Of course. Now that you have been proven wrong with facts, you are going to fall back on your opinion.
What facts? Ice-time? So what. It doesn't mean it was quality ice-time. Sorry we are not speaking about pre-WW2 players or O6 players. Everybody saw them both play, especially since 2005 we had an overdose of Penguins games because of Crosby.
Quote:
You are the one who said he has only been one for 6-7.
I fail to see how you proved me wrong there.
Boyle's vs Gonchar's ES ATOI:
2006: 16:41 vs 15:29
2007: 19:55 vs 16:04
2008: 20:18 (2nd 0:06 behind Ranger) vs 16:24
2009: 18:02 (2nd 0:12 behind Vlasic) vs 16:28 (2nd 0:52 behind Oprik)
2010: 19:21 vs 16:23 (3th 0:58 behind Letang)
2011: 19:41 vs 17:37 (3rd 0:45 behind Karlsson)
2012: 20:08 (2nd 0:20 behind Vlasic) vs 17:19 (3rd 3:32 behind Karlsson)
So tell me please again why Boyle wasn't relied on even strength more if had 2,5 minutes of ES ATOI more, and why he wasn't ?
We're still a few picks away from our selection, but without consolidating my list with my co-GM, Neil Colville & Herbie Lewis were #1 on my list of forwards. They are amazing value at this point, and I agree with Sturm that Neil Colville is underrated. Actually, Colville is usually taken in the mid-200's, which I think is fair. Last draft was an anomaly. From his position right now Colville should rise another 50 spot.
PS. We would of use Colville as a #3 centre, although I think he can be as effective on defence. Colville was not as fast as he used to be when he came back from the war, and this is the reason he turned into a defenceman. In a All-Time draft context, if you put Colville on defence, you wouldn't get a pudgy skater, which would enhance is effectiveness.
Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-18-2013 at 06:47 AM.
