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Bylsma/coaching staff discussion thread II

View Poll Results: So can Bylsma still lead them to the promised land?
Sure why not, Bylsma’s system is fine. The team will win another cup with him 40 33.33%
Nah, Bylsma has a better chance of winning dancing with the stars than another cup 80 66.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:42 PM
  #76
UnderratedBrooks44
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Thanks for seeing things my way.

And it's not just those two chuckleheads. You could even defend them in a way because they're essentially Pittsburgh Penguins employees, so they're basically towing the company line because I suppose that's part of the gig.

But it over inflates fan expectations, which is the reason why there's a meltdown even after a 5 game winning streak, or why Eric Tangradi making the most basic of NHL plays is met with "SEE, SEE, HE SHOULD BE PLAYING 20 MINUTES!!!" It's also why Nisky should be traded immediately because Bortuzzo and Despres haven't made a single rookie mistake and can fill in seamlessly for the playoffs.
Well I don't know if I'd go that far. I'm probably more on KIRK's side when it comes to the coach himself, but I do think the propoganda permeates itself through the entire fan base, this board included.

As for the importance of the coach, I would say that even if you don't think it matters as much as others that's still the first bold move made to try and change a team's culture. In other words whether someone feels Bylsma is a dolt or Scotty Bowman 2.0, the fact is he'll be fired if the brass feel like the team needs to go in a different general direction. I don't like Bylsma, but even if I did I'd say this should be the year a change is made IF they get bounced in the first round, in the first 2 rounds by a team they should beat, and/or the special teams are as abysmal (not bad, abysmal) as they've been in the postseason lately. It actually has little to do with my opinion of him though as hard as that might be to believe. It's just the ebb and flow of a franchise to me.

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:53 PM
  #77
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For what it's worth, IF Chicago gets knocked out in Round 1 after this start, I absolutely would fire Quenneville. If the Sharks don't get it together, I absolutely fire McLellan. If the Blues don't turn it around, Hitchcock may have an even shorter shelf-life than usual. I don't think Julien will be Boston's coach beyond the next 3-4 years. Etc. etc.

Again, coaches are hired to be fired. They should never be confused with players in terms of development. Let someone else iron out Disco's kinks. What we need is someone who actually wants to be a more skilled outfit. Only makes sense with 87 and 71 in fold.

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02-12-2013, 01:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
This argument really is-- or should be-- beneath you.

I remember someone standing in direct opposition to this argument four years ago, and that someone was you.

Yeah, the Pens had personnel issues (personnel issues worse than now, by the way) and injury excuses, but that couldn't absolve the coaching, according to you.

To wit, people replied 'you have an anti coaching agenda', that it was unfair to judge because of personnel issues, that the coach had just been to a finals, that other comparable coaches in comparable situations hadn't been fired, and they'd then use the slightest sign of life to say 'I told you so'.

No, the only difference between now and then is now YOU believe Bylsma is the right coach for the team and anyone who dares to disagree with what you believe is as mindless as they were four years ago when you were on the other side.

If you want to tell me 'this coach really is good and the other one was bad because that's what I believe', then I could respect that.

The naked hypocrisy . . . not so much.
You can't compare the two examples. THAT should be beneath you.

There's a difference between a few too many stretch passes, and an all day, every day, every game team philosophy of being a passive team when you should be everything but, especially when he had the benefit of one full scoring line and a bona fide duo. Please try to remember that my criticism of him began ONLY after the Hossa acquisition was made and Sid got healthy. At that point, there were no more excuses, especially with how big a joke the rest of the Eastern Conference was. As you and I both know and have stated since then, the rest of the Conference has caught up while our GM has essentially made a ton of lateral moves.

Regardless, I don't see how you could look at the poisonous atmosphere the following season where there was practically an open revolt against Therrien and not know what the problem was. They simply didn't want to play for him anymore and had had more than enough. You honestly don't see the difference between that, and what goes on with the current staff?

Besides, there's a huge difference between a young coach with a few stubborn technical flaws, and a complete oaf. Pay attention to the Habs' little losing streak so far, and you'll see what I mean.


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02-12-2013, 01:08 PM
  #79
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For what it's worth, IF Chicago gets knocked out in Round 1 after this start, I absolutely would fire Quenneville. If the Sharks don't get it together, I absolutely fire McLellan. If the Blues don't turn it around, Hitchcock may have an even shorter shelf-life than usual. I don't think Julien will be Boston's coach beyond the next 3-4 years. Etc. etc.

Again, coaches are hired to be fired. They should never be confused with players in terms of development. Let someone else iron out Disco's kinks. What we need is someone who actually wants to be a more skilled outfit. Only makes sense with 87 and 71 in fold.
That's all I want to hear.

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02-12-2013, 01:14 PM
  #80
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Well I don't know if I'd go that far. I'm probably more on KIRK's side when it comes to the coach himself, but I do think the propoganda permeates itself through the entire fan base, this board included.

As for the importance of the coach, I would say that even if you don't think it matters as much as others that's still the first bold move made to try and change a team's culture. In other words whether someone feels Bylsma is a dolt or Scotty Bowman 2.0, the fact is he'll be fired if the brass feel like the team needs to go in a different general direction. I don't like Bylsma, but even if I did I'd say this should be the year a change is made IF they get bounced in the first round, in the first 2 rounds by a team they should beat, and/or the special teams are as abysmal (not bad, abysmal) as they've been in the postseason lately. It actually has little to do with my opinion of him though as hard as that might be to believe. It's just the ebb and flow of a franchise to me.
I wasn't even referring to the coaching argument, just the fact that you don't fall into the whole "Pens can't do wrong" trap in believing how much better we are than everyone else.

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02-12-2013, 03:26 PM
  #81
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Yes, we will.

Here's why.

After I had my complete meltdown earlier in this season, (losses to Winnipeg/NYI), we completely altered our defense. He made systemic changes which have (on the whole) really affected the results on the scoreboard. We have been able to maintain leads better, and the use of the stretch pass has been severely limited (to great benefit). We ran into a team we have issues with, but I believe that the 5-game win streak was far more encouraging than losing the home-and-home to New Jersey.

Don't forget, Bylsma is the only Penguins coach to claim a Jack Adams award. I don't think that will ever happen again. He is certainly a good coach, and I do believe we will win a cup in the next couple years. His recent activity, from changing the defensive mindset, to altering the powerplay, suggests to me that he is willing to change on the fly. Moreso than in years' past.


I have faith.

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Old
02-12-2013, 11:02 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
You're absolutely right. We're one winger short (two ideally), but we can't ignore the fact that we still don't have that one winger we're all pining for.

Here's my problem with the coaching argument RIP. I have pointed out countless examples of "coaching failures" over the years by elite coaches that the anti-Bylsma brigade would prefer having over him.
Well, while I might be just as critical, that isn't me. It seems to me it is difficult enough for knowledgeable fans of our own team to agree on or even evaluate Bylsma's performance/strengths/short comings. Thus I never (hardly ever at least) drop names on who I'd prefer instead of Dan, because I don't see any other team frequently enough to have a clear idea if and how their coaches would be better for us (except to say that Mike Babcock would rock, but that's too easy).

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I put the term in quotes because I'm the type who believes that in hockey in particular, coaches get WAY too much credit for success, and way too much blame for losing.
I can agree with you on that. But there are just too many things that frustrates me with Bylsma and too few things where it seems to me that he should be getting credit for what we accomplish. Doesn't mean I don't think players should be held accountable for non-performance (although Bylsma is the first one not to, or does so in his own particular non youth-friendly way), or that Shero doesn't deserve to be under the microscope for not having keyed in on/solved the key roster issues of this team despite them being evident for years.

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Seems to me that when I point out Babcock's "failures" in the playoffs, they're cast aside.
Just one comment on this; being interested in Babcock and having greatly appreciated their hockey (also) under his tenure, I have frequently been going to the Wings forum here to read what their fans say about him. There is very, very little criticism of Babcock. Mostly fans believe that he hasn't been given the horses he wanted/team needed in free agency since we beat them in the final, that key players got too old/were injured/didn't perform when the heat was on etc. Or that they got killed by awesome goal tending of course. Personally I don't see much of anything to criticize in Detroit's WAY OF PLAYING, except of course this year they suddenly have a special teams problem because Lidstrom isn't there and Holland didn't get anything resembling a replacement. Basically, Detroit this year haven't got a very good team.

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I could go on and on with this stuff for so long I get a headache just thinking about it. My point being is that I can't stand how after ONE loss, there's a definitive reason as to why. What makes it all the more amusing is that the same people with the anti coaching agenda also openly admit that there's a ton of help needed on the wing.
I've recycled pretty much the same misgivings about Bylsma for more than two years. It isn't about one loss at all, far less one... or two... against New Jersey, which is obviously a strong team.

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Besides, there's a huge difference between a young coach with a few stubborn technical flaws, and a complete oaf.
Just took a snip from another post.... I think there is much more to it than him having a few stubborn technical flaws.
But even if we were to say that this was it, I don't like being in the prime of the best two players in the world and having a coach who is learning on the job. Less so when I cannot see what lessons he is learning, as the same problems are rearing their heads consistently whether we win or lose. It would be different if I saw that little by little we were improving technically/tactically.... but for the life of me I cannot see how that is so.

The big improvement made so far this season has been that we are much less susceptible to bubbling the puck to forecheckers behind our own net, and 5 on 5 we do much better at insulating our goalie in front of the crease. That has nothing to do with having changed our game, because it hasn't. It is simply a factor of having integrated two 6.4 D-men who have that very needed skill as part of the package they bring. Some of us have been saying that this was a roster need for a long time. I give Bylsma zero credit for this improvement, rather he and Shero should have made it a focus at deadlines ever since we gave up Scuderi and Gill in free agency. Instead we've been getting Leopold or nothing.


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Old
02-13-2013, 12:46 PM
  #83
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Yes, we will.

Here's why.

After I had my complete meltdown earlier in this season, (losses to Winnipeg/NYI), we completely altered our defense. He made systemic changes which have (on the whole) really affected the results on the scoreboard. We have been able to maintain leads better, and the use of the stretch pass has been severely limited (to great benefit). We ran into a team we have issues with, but I believe that the 5-game win streak was far more encouraging than losing the home-and-home to New Jersey.

Don't forget, Bylsma is the only Penguins coach to claim a Jack Adams award. I don't think that will ever happen again. He is certainly a good coach, and I do believe we will win a cup in the next couple years. His recent activity, from changing the defensive mindset, to altering the powerplay, suggests to me that he is willing to change on the fly. Moreso than in years' past.


I have faith.
Yo Ominous-I have mostly been keying on the rookie defenseman the last half dozen games and have not noticed any defensive adjustments. Would you please comment on a couple of them so that My mind can rest at ease as your's does?

And I have noticed less stretch passing recently-but still get anoyed when I see it :-)

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02-13-2013, 01:18 PM
  #84
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Yo Ominous-I have mostly been keying on the rookie defenseman the last half dozen games and have not noticed any defensive adjustments. Would you please comment on a couple of them so that My mind can rest at ease as your's does?

And I have noticed less stretch passing recently-but still get anoyed when I see it :-)
After Sunday I feel like all i ever saw was stretch passing, but when we're on our game, you don't see it nearly as much.

The only major defensive adjustment I saw was with the offense the game after toronto, when he had us playing more team defense as a whole. I really think thats the only adjustment we need at this point, because lord knows, no one would dare coach martin to take the body once in a friggin while.

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02-14-2013, 12:42 PM
  #85
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So despite the win last night, which was more about a team already decimated with injuries having the straw that broke the camels back at the end of the third period with EK going down and becoming entirely an AHL team, this is three games in a row where the Pens looked absolutely awful. The same kind of awful that has made us a team that does not seem capable of playing playoff hockey. I am really worried. Not because the team has looked bad. All teams go through bad stretches. Certainly not because I care all that much what seeding we end up. But because the same issues we all have complained about just do not seem to get fixed.

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02-14-2013, 12:49 PM
  #86
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So despite the win last night, which was more about a team already decimated with injuries having the straw that broke the camels back at the end of the third period with EK going down and becoming entirely an AHL team, this is three games in a row where the Pens looked absolutely awful. The same kind of awful that has made us a team that does not seem capable of playing playoff hockey. I am really worried. Not because the team has looked bad. All teams go through bad stretches. Certainly not because I care all that much what seeding we end up. But because the same issues we all have complained about just do not seem to get fixed.
Looking just it did towards the end of last year's regular season doesn't it? It is going to be harder and harder for ownership & management to continue to justify status quo if this team fails once again with the talent assembled.

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02-15-2013, 08:37 AM
  #87
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This pretty much sums it up. Just listen to what guys like Malkin, Guerin, etc have to say about DB.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2Kyh6mgU2

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02-17-2013, 08:40 PM
  #88
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So, first place in the east (though by one point and NJ has a game in hand over us).

Third overall in points.

Second most goals in the NHL (OMG WE NEEEEEEEEEEED WINGZZZZZZZZZ!).

Second highest goal differential of +14 between Goals and GA, which by the way is 9 full points better than the next in the division, NJ. Philly is a -11 btw, just for chuckles.

Have played only 6 home games and 10 road games, meaning of the remaining 32 games 18 are at home and only 14 are on the road. Though that said we are 3-3 at home, 8-2 on the road.

With all of that I still worry about a first round bow out given that I still see things that will cost us in the playoffs. Especially if we play a team like NJ.

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02-18-2013, 03:14 AM
  #89
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So, first place in the east (though by one point and NJ has a game in hand over us).

Third overall in points.

Second most goals in the NHL (OMG WE NEEEEEEEEEEED WINGZZZZZZZZZ!).

Second highest goal differential of +14 between Goals and GA, which by the way is 9 full points better than the next in the division, NJ. Philly is a -11 btw, just for chuckles.

Have played only 6 home games and 10 road games, meaning of the remaining 32 games 18 are at home and only 14 are on the road. Though that said we are 3-3 at home, 8-2 on the road.

With all of that I still worry about a first round bow out given that I still see things that will cost us in the playoffs. Especially if we play a team like NJ.
Those two go hand in hand. We do need wingers. EVERY YEAR we finish in the top 5 or so in goal scoring. Because we have Sid and Geno... they can absolutely dominate any given regular season game (like Sid today vs Buffalo) but it changes come playoffs when teams make everyone but them two beat us, and thats when we get in trouble. People need to understand that is why were so good in the regular season but it changes in the playoffs.

Philly dominated us because of their puck possession. They got it in the zone and just put on a clinic of puck possession. We can't do that with Dups, Kunitz, 2nd line revolving door.

So we can sit here and look at Dupuis stats all day and see over a full season, he is a 20+20 guy and so is Kunitz. Nobody is denying that. But the regular season does not equal post season play.

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02-18-2013, 03:34 AM
  #90
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This pretty much sums it up. Just listen to what guys like Malkin, Guerin, etc have to say about DB.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2Kyh6mgU2
B-b-b-b-ut, Tangradi thinks he's mean!

Trolling aside, perhaps people should just come to terms that Bylsma is a better coach with veterans than with rookies. And this is not a rookie team anymore.

I know it's a thing to hate whatever coach we have, since whenever (I swear it's as close to a regional tradition as you get in Da Burgh), but Bylsma's coaching of veterans is pretty strong IMO. He still struggles with adapting his team on the fly and managing younger players, but given how Martin's rebounded, how Neal rebounded, and how ex-players like Guerin speak about his coaching, he deserves a little more slack than he gets here.

I still wish he'd juggle lines less, though.

Edit: To clarify, I'm talking only about his coaching of vets vs. rookies here.


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02-18-2013, 03:55 AM
  #91
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Philly dominated us because of their puck possession. They got it in the zone and just put on a clinic of puck possession. We can't do that with Dups, Kunitz, 2nd line revolving door.
That is terribly wrong. Philly dominated nothing 5 on 5. Our PK numbers and Fleury's save percentage explain EVERYTHING about that series loss.

Flyers did however put our D into difficulty enough times to have it be a contributing factor, because our defenders coughed up the puck too easily when put under pressure. More than anything that was a consequence of being soff - ie. our defensive group was on the whole too small and non-physical, and once the Flyers chipped it behind the D and had guys like Hartnell, Simmonds, Talbot, Read and others chase.. we couldn't deal. That part we can take care of this season - if we make it a priority to play the guys we have with size and snarl along the vets. Still to be seen if we will though.

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02-18-2013, 09:47 AM
  #92
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For what it's worth, IF Chicago gets knocked out in Round 1 after this start, I absolutely would fire Quenneville. If the Sharks don't get it together, I absolutely fire McLellan. If the Blues don't turn it around, Hitchcock may have an even shorter shelf-life than usual. I don't think Julien will be Boston's coach beyond the next 3-4 years. Etc. etc.

Again, coaches are hired to be fired. They should never be confused with players in terms of development. Let someone else iron out Disco's kinks. What we need is someone who actually wants to be a more skilled outfit. Only makes sense with 87 and 71 in fold.
I must say that I enjoy the Quenneville example. He won a cup the year after the Pens. If he's one and done this year and should be fired, then Bylsma should've been fired last year.

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02-18-2013, 09:48 AM
  #93
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So, first place in the east (though by one point and NJ has a game in hand over us).

Third overall in points.

Second most goals in the NHL (OMG WE NEEEEEEEEEEED WINGZZZZZZZZZ!).

Second highest goal differential of +14 between Goals and GA, which by the way is 9 full points better than the next in the division, NJ. Philly is a -11 btw, just for chuckles.

Have played only 6 home games and 10 road games, meaning of the remaining 32 games 18 are at home and only 14 are on the road. Though that said we are 3-3 at home, 8-2 on the road.

With all of that I still worry about a first round bow out given that I still see things that will cost us in the playoffs. Especially if we play a team like NJ.
Pens are the best constructed and coached team in hockey. Nothing to fear but the random excuse generator itself.

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02-18-2013, 09:59 AM
  #94
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They still need a Hal Gill type acquistion to fill that 4th D-spot to help out Orpik,Martin and Letang but construction overall good enough for long run but coaching is a question mark no matter how much Bylsma apologists think it isn't.

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02-18-2013, 10:04 AM
  #95
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They still need a Hal Gill type acquistion to fill that 4th D-spot to help out Orpik,Martin and Letang but construction overall good enough for long run but coaching is a question mark no matter how much Bylsma apologists think it isn't.
A Hal Gill type doesn't fit the system, and coaching isn't a question mark.

Editor's Note: One of those sentences is true.

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02-18-2013, 10:41 AM
  #96
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Just going to cut and paste some comments from Wings fans concerning their team:

"this team isnt even sure what it wants to do. players who have been awful all year are getting a pass, while youngsters who make 1 mistake are benched.
disheartening."

"Relying on small-ish skill forwards can only work so long as players can create space for them, and that's not happening often. The Wings just have a poor overall mix of forwards and aren't very threatening offensively outside of Zetterberg and Datsyuk"

"Ken Holland's penchant for signing old, familiar vets has really slowed the development of our prospects. it took a ridiculous rash of injuries to get Tatar in the lineup. Nyquist will probably be 24 by the time he makes the jump."

"I actually think its an identity thing. Babcocks transitioning the team away from puck possession and into a more grind it out type of game. It doesnt work with big slow guys really so they need to transition out of that before theyll be near the top again."

"If Datsyuk or Zetterberg aren't on the ice this has to be one of the top 3 most boring/bland/uninteresting teams to watch in the NHL.

The Red Wings have scored ZERO powerplays goals on the road. ZERO."

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02-18-2013, 11:16 AM
  #97
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IMO people blame Bylmsa for the sake of blaming someone. He's a great coach, period.

2010 and 2011 playoff losses were 100% not his fault. '10 Pens dominated Montreal every game. They lost cuz of Fleury and Halak.
2011 they were without Sid and Geno. Can't rely on Letestu, Kovalev, Staal, and 2011 Neal to score goals.

As far as rookies and lack of impact, it's not Bylsma's fault that Tangradi, Jeffrey, and Boychuck suck. Players like Vitale and Letestu got their chance and made an immidiate impact. Same with Despres, Bortuzzo, and Engalland. At some point people have to realize that maybe Tangradi just ISN'T GOOD and Bylsma was right to scratch him after 50 games of non existent offense.

Good coach and is on a good path for success in the near future.

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02-18-2013, 11:26 AM
  #98
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Jeffrey has shown quite a few times that he doesn't suck.

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02-18-2013, 11:32 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
As far as rookies and lack of impact, it's not Bylsma's fault that Tangradi, Jeffrey, and Boychuck suck. Players like Vitale and Letestu got their chance and made an immidiate impact. Same with Despres, Bortuzzo, and Engalland. At some point people have to realize that maybe Tangradi just ISN'T GOOD and Bylsma was right to scratch him after 50 games of non existent offense.
I'm not a Bylsma fan but I totally agree. I've said it 3-4 times this season, I don't know why people try so hard to not admit a guy just isn't a good player. It's funny how players that show something get to keep playing. The way a lot of people on this board talk, Bylsma just doesn't know how to handle Tangradi et. al., which is preposterous.

I do think Jeffrey is an okay player and it's more of him not fitting in anywhere in the lineup than anything else though. I can't blame Bylsma for that either though.

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02-18-2013, 11:58 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I'm not a Bylsma fan but I totally agree. I've said it 3-4 times this season, I don't know why people try so hard to not admit a guy just isn't a good player. It's funny how players that show something get to keep playing. The way a lot of people on this board talk, Bylsma just doesn't know how to handle Tangradi et. al., which is preposterous.

I do think Jeffrey is an okay player and it's more of him not fitting in anywhere in the lineup than anything else though. I can't blame Bylsma for that either though.
If Sutter gets hurt, who does everyone thing automatically steps into the role of third line center?

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