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It's about to get real up in here: prospect rankings from 2007-08

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:50 AM
  #1
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It's about to get real up in here: prospect rankings from 2007-08

Let's settle this Jakub Kindl business once and for all. If you go back to the very first prospect ranking archive Matt has over at RWC you can see that Jimmy Howard was our #1 prospect. And I think most would agree that Howard has earned that ranking. Howard's accomplishments:
  • First Griffin to make All-AHL rookie team
  • Set GR franchise record with 12 straight wins
  • Was an AHL All-Star
  • Calder finalist in the NHL
  • NHL All Star
  • Played in over 200 NHL games and 28 playoff games

#2 on that list was Jakub Kindl. What has Kindl done since then?
  • AHL All-Star
  • Appeared in 115 NHL games
  • 0 playoff appearances

But wait, it gets better. Look at all the guys on that prospect list who have or are about to pass up Kindl.

#3 Justin Abdelkader (224 NHL games, 37 playoff games)
#4 Cory Emmerton (88 NHL games, 5 playoff games)
#5 Brendan Smith (22 NHL games)
#8 Jonathan Ericsson (244 NHL games, 50 playoff games)
#9 Kyle Quincey (272 NHL games, 24 playoff games)
#10 Darren Helm (249 NHL games, 65 playoff games)

Hey, that was way back 5 years ago. Have any other guys passed Kindl up since then? Probably not right?

2008-09 rankings
#17 Gus Nyquist (Hobey Baker finalist, point a game player in GR)
2009-10 rankings
#3 Tomas Tatar (looking very difficult to leave out of the DRW lineup)


Kindl was removed from the prospect rankings following the 2009-10 season. So in a span of three seasons, he had 8 guys who were ranked beneath him surpass him in the organization's depth chart. And I didn't even include Jan Mursak, who was guaranteed a roster spot but has never been able to do much due to constantly being injured.

What if we look at guys who have made the top 20 since Kindl moved on from the prospect rankings? What would that look like? It's tough to say other than for guys who are dominating at the AHL level, something Kindl was never able to do.

2010-11 rankings

#20 Petr Mrazek

Knock knock knock. Who's there? Brian Lashoff? What does Babs have to say about Brian Lashoff?

Quote:
Outstanding. He’s just smart, he’s big. He’s big and he’s smart, so because you’re big and you’re smart and you’re competitive, you get to play lots. So good for him.” — Babcock (February 2013, MLive.com)
Is Mike Babcock to blame for Kindl getting passed up over the past 5 years by damn near a dozen prospects rated lower than Jakub? Is Ken Holland to blame? Please let me know because for the life of me I cannot understand why Kindl hasn't locked down a spot on the worst defense we've had in over 20 years. There must be an answer that I am missing.


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Old
02-18-2013, 10:56 AM
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You can blame Fraser, Holland, and Babcock.

Our management is full of *******. They haven't and never will give Kindl a consistent opportunity because they're too afraid he will fail. And if Kindl fails, Holland looks like an idiot for drafting him in the first round.

We're never going to know what we have in Kindl because our management is playing not to lose rather than to win.

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02-18-2013, 11:00 AM
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Kindl was AHL All-star. If you mention that under Howard, put that also under Jakub's merits.

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02-18-2013, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
You can blame Fraser, Holland, and Babcock.

Our management is full of *******. They haven't and never will give Kindl a consistent opportunity because they're too afraid he will fail. And if Kindl fails, Holland looks like an idiot for drafting him in the first round.

We're never going to know what we have in Kindl because our management is playing not to lose rather than to win.
That literally makes no sense. Detroit 1st round draft picks:

Riley Sheahan: disappointment but very likely an NHL player. Still has upside.
Thomas McCollum: epic bust.
Brendan Smith: solid NHL'er but probably not going to be as good as we hoped.
Jakub Kindl: fringe NHL'er.
Niklas Kronwall: solid NHL offensive defenseman.
Jiri Fischer: solid NHL'er.

I think that's just about every first round pick during Ken Holland's time as GM. You have two really good picks (Fischer, Kronwall), two solid picks (Smith, Sheahan), and two busts (McCollum, Kindl). Why on earth would they be afraid to play him because he might fail? I think the more likely answer is he doesn't add anything to your team and there are better players on the squad who improve your chances of winning hockey games, which is all Babcock cares about.

In fact the way they are handling Jakub Kindl looks an awful lot like how they handled Derek Meech. They kept Meecher around for as long as they could and they played him when they were hit with injuries.

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02-18-2013, 11:12 AM
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So because he's misused by management, he's a failed prospect? Great argument.

The only players so far that are better are Howard and Helm.

Whats with this **** grinder love? Abdelkater can only hit and Emmerton fills minutes.

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02-18-2013, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
That literally makes no sense. Detroit 1st round draft picks:

Riley Sheahan: disappointment but very likely an NHL player. Still has upside.
Thomas McCollum: epic bust.
Brendan Smith: solid NHL'er but probably not going to be as good as we hoped.
Jakub Kindl: fringe NHL'er.
Niklas Kronwall: solid NHL offensive defenseman.
Jiri Fischer: solid NHL'er.

I think that's just about every first round pick during Ken Holland's time as GM. You have two really good picks (Fischer, Kronwall), two solid picks (Smith, Sheahan), and two busts (McCollum, Kindl). Why on earth would they be afraid to play him because he might fail? I think the more likely answer is he doesn't add anything to your team and there are better players on the squad who improve your chances of winning hockey games, which is all Babcock cares about.

In fact the way they are handling Jakub Kindl looks an awful lot like how they handled Derek Meech. They kept Meecher around for as long as they could and they played him when they were hit with injuries.
Sorry, the bolded is completely false as seen by his affection for Cleary.

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02-18-2013, 11:15 AM
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This may sound dumb because it's only been 15 games, but Kindl has put up more points than everyone but Kronwall and Ericsson, and in less games.

Better scratch him.

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02-18-2013, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Kindl was AHL All-star. If you mention that under Howard, put that also under Jakub's merits.
Thanks for pointing this out, I have added it to his profile. One thing I saw when looking this up in his prospect profile over at RWC was that Kindl finsihed second to Marc Staal for the OHL outstanding defenseman award. Whatever happened to Staal?

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02-18-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Sorry, the bolded is completely false as seen by his affection for Cleary.
I'm pretty sure once we get healthy Cleary will be sent down to a bottom 6 role. Cleary can also PK so he does have a role on this team.

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02-18-2013, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I'm pretty sure once we get healthy Cleary will be sent down to a bottom 6 role. Cleary can also PK so he does have a role on this team.
He's fifth in ice time among forwards, one way or another.

He may be on the third line but he's as much a top six guy as there is in the league.

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02-18-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
So because he's misused by management, he's a failed prospect? Great argument.

The only players so far that are better are Howard and Helm.

Whats with this **** grinder love? Abdelkater can only hit and Emmerton fills minutes.
What is the goal of drafting a guy? To have him become a regular NHL player. So long as that happens you can deem the prospect to have been a successful draft pick. Brendan Smith has passed up Kindl, I don't think anyone disputes that. They are pretty much the same guy, ie 1st round draft pick, offensive defenseman, spent time in the AHL. The difference is Smith has developed and has locked down an NHL roster spot despite being 2 years younger. Hell, if Babs had his way Smith would have been in the lineup as a 23 year old. Lashoff is getting significant ice time as a 22 year old. You cannot whine about prospects not being given a chance, as there are several guys getting ice time.

Why hasn't Kindl locked down a spot on a terrible defense?

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02-18-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
That literally makes no sense. Detroit 1st round draft picks:

Riley Sheahan: disappointment but very likely an NHL player. Still has upside.
Thomas McCollum: epic bust.
Brendan Smith: solid NHL'er but probably not going to be as good as we hoped.
Jakub Kindl: fringe NHL'er.
Niklas Kronwall: solid NHL offensive defenseman.
Jiri Fischer: solid NHL'er.

I think that's just about every first round pick during Ken Holland's time as GM. You have two really good picks (Fischer, Kronwall), two solid picks (Smith, Sheahan), and two busts (McCollum, Kindl). Why on earth would they be afraid to play him because he might fail? I think the more likely answer is he doesn't add anything to your team and there are better players on the squad who improve your chances of winning hockey games, which is all Babcock cares about.

In fact the way they are handling Jakub Kindl looks an awful lot like how they handled Derek Meech. They kept Meecher around for as long as they could and they played him when they were hit with injuries.
Trust me I've gone through every possible reason in my head and other than "he just isn't good enough" its the only one that makes any sense. The Wings would rather play it safe.

Kindl brings a lot more to the table than anyone not named Kronwall, Ericsson, and White.

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02-18-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
He's fifth in ice time among forwards, one way or another.

He may be on the third line but he's as much a top six guy as there is in the league.
You're being obtuse. He is getting top 6 time due to Sammy, Bert and Mule being injured.

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02-18-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Trust me I've gone through every possible reason in my head and other than "he just isn't good enough" its the only one that makes any sense. The Wings would rather play it safe.

Kindl brings a lot more to the table than anyone not named Kronwall, Ericsson, and White.
Well then why aren't they playing him? Will he become Derek Meech when he goes to another franchise?

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02-18-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
That literally makes no sense. Detroit 1st round draft picks:

Riley Sheahan: disappointment but very likely an NHL player. Still has upside.
Thomas McCollum: epic bust.
Brendan Smith: solid NHL'er but probably not going to be as good as we hoped.
Jakub Kindl: fringe NHL'er.
Niklas Kronwall: solid NHL offensive defenseman.
Jiri Fischer: solid NHL'er.

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02-18-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
You can blame Fraser, Holland, and Babcock.

Our management is full of *******. They haven't and never will give Kindl a consistent opportunity because they're too afraid he will fail. And if Kindl fails, Holland looks like an idiot for drafting him in the first round.

We're never going to know what we have in Kindl because our management is playing not to lose rather than to win.
Kindle has played 115 games in the NHL. That is more than enough opportunity to show you belong. It's not holland or babs fault he has yet to. This year he has been better. But has not stood out as better than any other defender on the team. So why does he deserve to play any more than them.

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02-18-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
What is the goal of drafting a guy? To have him become a regular NHL player. So long as that happens you can deem the prospect to have been a successful draft pick. Brendan Smith has passed up Kindl, I don't think anyone disputes that. They are pretty much the same guy, ie 1st round draft pick, offensive defenseman, spent time in the AHL. The difference is Smith has developed and has locked down an NHL roster spot despite being 2 years younger. Hell, if Babs had his way Smith would have been in the lineup as a 23 year old. Lashoff is getting significant ice time as a 22 year old. You cannot whine about prospects not being given a chance, as there are several guys getting ice time.

Why hasn't Kindl locked down a spot on a terrible defense?
Again, you're literally writing rebuttals to your argument in your own posts.

Quote:
You're being obtuse. He is getting top 6 time due to Sammy, Bert and Mule being injured.
No, not really. He's fifth in overall ice time per game, and just behind Bertuzzi in PP ice time per game and 7th overall in ESTOI per game.

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02-18-2013, 11:40 AM
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Your Hockey taste sucks compared to music taste.

Everyone knows how slowly the Wings bring along defensemen (except Fraud Lebda)

What's the point of bringing up Tatar and Nyquist? 2 guys who haven't established themselves..

At the end of the day, the Wings are pulling the old Kyle Quincey move with Kindl right here.

Get ready for JK to get waiver wired or traded for chump change. And then watch him turn into a solid top 4 defenseman who scores 10 goals and 40 points a year.

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02-18-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Shadywing19 View Post
Kindle has played 115 games in the NHL. That is more than enough opportunity to show you belong. It's not holland or babs fault he has yet to. This year he has been better. But has not stood out as better than any other defender on the team. So why does he deserve to play any more than them.
13 points in 55 games, a plus rating in his second season, and 3rd in points with a plus rating, more hits per game than other defensemen this year isn't good enough?

We all know Babcock has his favourites. For people to think that doesn't affect players chances to get in games shows some extreme ignorance.

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02-18-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
13 points in 55 games, a plus rating in his second season, and 3rd in points with a plus rating, more hits per game than other defensemen this year isn't good enough?

We all know Babcock has his favourites. For people to think that doesn't affect players chances to get in games shows some extreme ignorance.
As i said. He's definitely been better this year. But he is still prone to turnovers and getting caught out of position. ****. Quincey leads our team in +\- Stats can be very misleading when talking about how a player really plays.

All I'm saying is this year. He's been average. Along with the rest if our defenseman other than Ericsson kronner and maybe white. So I see no reason why he shouldn't be included in the healthy scratch rotation.

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02-18-2013, 11:44 AM
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It's funny people are talking about Fischer in this thread.
Scotty Bowman was notoriously bad at using young talent and yet.
He used Fischer at 19 the way Babcock used Kindl at 25.


Just a question... Is anyone who watches Kindl saying that he's playing awful hockey and doesn't deserve to be in over Huskins and Lashoff?

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02-18-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Shadywing19 View Post
As i said. He's definitely been better this year. But he is still prone to turnovers and getting caught out of position. ****. Quincey leads our team in +\- Stats can be very misleading when talking about how a player really plays.

All I'm saying is this year. He's been average. Along with the rest if our defenseman other than Ericsson kronner and maybe white. So I see no reason why he shouldn't be included in the healthy scratch rotation.
He has been player better than every defenseman on our team not named Ericsson.

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02-18-2013, 11:47 AM
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Last year, Kindl was playing decent hockey. Not as physical as i wanted, and not as engaged as he should be. No question.
But he was playing decent hockey in a role that didn't allow him to play to his strengths.

Then the Wings got beat up physically in game and Babcock decided replacing Kindl with Commodore was the answer.

Kind paid the price for Kronwall, White and everyone else being so soft.

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02-18-2013, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadywing19 View Post
Kindle has played 115 games in the NHL. That is more than enough opportunity to show you belong. It's not holland or babs fault he has yet to. This year he has been better. But has not stood out as better than any other defender on the team. So why does he deserve to play any more than them.
How many of those games were anything more than bottom pairing minutes (10-14/game) and constantly being rotated in and out of the lineup for guys like Commie and Salei (RIP). Kinda hard to gain confidence when always being afraid of making a mistake and being benched and scratched, because it seems like your coach has it out for you.
Even in this injury riddled season he's still below Lashoff and Huskins both haven't been spectacular and IMO haven't been better than Kindl.
With the injuries to Smitty and Cola he's been given a chance at increased minutes and a larger role, and if he was still playing poorly then I could be convinced that he doesn't belong on this team and maybe the NHL. However that wasn't the case, he's playing the best hockey of his career and while still making some mistakes he's playing better each game and looking like our 1st round pick with only 9 games under his belt this season.

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02-18-2013, 11:49 AM
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What I like about that list, is that those 8 guys on the top 10 prospects list from five years ago, is on the team today. Somebody is doing something right!

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