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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXII - Kessel Run Edition

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Old
02-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #926
pitseleh
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Actually, it's 100% correct to define physical play as part of a player's "toolbox". Would you say that Kassian does not have that as part of his skill-set? Did the Canucks trade Cody Hodgson (a one dimensional player - offense) for a one dimensional player? If that's the case, then Vancouver lost that trade, big time.

Oh, and by the way, stickhandling is part of the offense skill-set, just letting you know.
Physical play is part of the toolbox just as stickhandling is. Offence and defence are not part of the toolbox. Offence and defence are ends, physical play and stickhandling are means. You can't just lump them together.

Physical play can contribute to offence and defence but say that Bieksa is multi-dimensional because he brings offence and physical play misses the point and conflates means with ends.

You can call a player multi-dimensional in terms of his skill-set (means) or how much he ultimately contributes to the scoresheet (ends) but mixing the two together leads to incoherent analysis. It would be like saying Hodgson is multi-dimensional because he brings offence and has a great shot.

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02-18-2013, 03:51 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
I wouldn't mind finding a new defensive coach. (and while we're at it let's also replace AV and Brown)
I wouldn't mind the GM balancing the handedness of his roster.

Kesler back helps the PP, but why is Garrison not on the PP.

No reason Garrison should be behind hamhuis when it comes to PP ice, especially if he's our Willie Mitchell on the PK.

Edler is everybody's golden boy right now because he's getting 2nd assists on the PP.

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02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I wouldn't mind the GM balancing the handedness of his roster.

Kesler back helps the PP, but why is Garrison not on the PP.

No reason Garrison should be behind hamhuis when it comes to PP ice, especially if he's our Willie Mitchell on the PK.

Edler is everybody's golden boy right now because he's getting 2nd assists on the PP.
How can you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously when you write off others' opinions like this? Is it inconceivable that people are happy with other aspects of Edler's game other than his point total?

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02-18-2013, 04:24 PM
  #929
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Garrison is such a terrible signing if he doesn't play better.
Garrison is playing much better and finally looked good with the puck on his stick at times last night. A lot of what he does well can go unnoticed.

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No reason Garrison should be behind hamhuis when it comes to PP ice
I don't understand that either. I want to see Tanev and Garrison.

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02-18-2013, 04:36 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
How can you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously when you write off others' opinions like this? Is it inconceivable that people are happy with other aspects of Edler's game other than his point total?
Sure it's conceivable.

How am I writing peoples opinions off? I'm not an ardent believer that advanced stats tell you more than the eyes. I don't believe Edler is playing well, I actually would deem him to be more of a trainwreck than Bieksa.

Whose opinion did I write off? As far as I can read, nobody's.

I'm just not too sure what aspects of Edler's game currently, would make anyone happy. He looks so damn uncomfortable on the right side its almost sad to watch. Can you point me to the other aspects people are happy with (and No, im not looking for an advanced metric that shows something my eyes aren't picking up).

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02-18-2013, 04:45 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
I knew this was going to happen.
/pats self on back
The Garrison signing is terrible based on us having 4 top 4 left side defensemen. Not because of his play (which I think is merely adequate).

The sole reason people have a problem with Ballard is because he's being paid 4.2million$ to play on the 3rd pairing. After this season we'll be paying 4.6million$ to play Garrison to play on the the 3rd pairing.

We are forcing our best defensemen to play his off-side and even though he's been good, playing on his normal side would make him much more comfortable.

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02-18-2013, 04:46 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Sure it's conceivable.

How am I writing peoples opinions off? I'm not an ardent believer that advanced stats tell you more than the eyes. I don't believe Edler is playing well, I actually would deem him to be more of a trainwreck than Bieksa.

Whose opinion did I write off? As far as I can read, nobody's.

I'm just not too sure what aspects of Edler's game currently, would make anyone happy. He looks so damn uncomfortable on the right side its almost sad to watch. Can you point me to the other aspects people are happy with (and No, im not looking for an advanced metric that shows something my eyes aren't picking up).

The slight regression of the Ballard/Tanev combo (though better than any other bottom 2 pairing) I believe we need to swap Ballard for a right side D man. I agree that Edler's biggest issue is he does not look like a happy camper on the right side, even when we won 6 games he had 1-3 gaps a game that a goalie bailed him out on.

I would like to see

Edler X
Hamhuis Bieksa
Garrison Tanev

I am not a Ballard hater at all but he's the only left side D I'd be willing to part with.

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Old
02-18-2013, 04:48 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
The Garrison signing is terrible based on us having 4 top 4 left side defensemen. Not because of his play (which I think is merely adequate).

The sole reason people have a problem with Ballard is because he's being paid 4.2million$ to play on the 3rd pairing. After this season we'll be paying 4.6million$ to play Garrison to play on the the 3rd pairing.

We are forcing our best defensemen to play his off-side and even though he's been good, playing on his normal side would make him much more comfortable.
My entire argument is based on the opposite of this. I don't think he's been good, he's been about as adequate as Garrison.

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02-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Physical play is part of the toolbox just as stickhandling is. Offence and defence are not part of the toolbox. Offence and defence are ends, physical play and stickhandling are means. You can't just lump them together.

Physical play can contribute to offence and defence but say that Bieksa is multi-dimensional because he brings offence and physical play misses the point and conflates means with ends.

You can call a player multi-dimensional in terms of his skill-set (means) or how much he ultimately contributes to the scoresheet (ends) but mixing the two together leads to incoherent analysis. It would be like saying Hodgson is multi-dimensional because he brings offence and has a great shot.
I disagree with this. I've often heard a guy was really good defensively and has a great shot. Saying someone is really good defensively assumes certain skills in the toolbox, saying someone has a great shot is a good way of describing their offensive game. Even the omission of other offensive skills says something imo.

Saying someone brings offence assumes the shot, no need to say it. Physical play is without the puck, so that wouldn't be included the analysis that someone is a good offensive player.


Last edited by Scurr: 02-18-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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02-18-2013, 04:51 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by BerSTUzzi View Post
The slight regression of the Ballard/Tanev combo (though better than any other bottom 2 pairing) I believe we need to swap Ballard for a right side D man. I agree that Edler's biggest issue is he does not look like a happy camper on the right side, even when we won 6 games he had 1-3 gaps a game that a goalie bailed him out on.

I would like to see

Edler X
Hamhuis Bieksa
Garrison Tanev

I am not a Ballard hater at all but he's the only left side D I'd be willing to part with.
At this point, I'd trade Ballard for Ehrhoff or M. Streit out of NYI (adding a minor prospect or a pick to even it up).

Though Ballard has played well, I liked Edler when he was the defensive conscience on his pairing. Not that Ehrhoff didn't have his faults (and his contract is just goofy).

Anyhow, I'd expect (hope?) Edler continues to improve. He looks jittery out there at times, and I wonder how he'd to against an aggressive forecheck.

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Old
02-18-2013, 04:51 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
My entire argument is based on the opposite of this. I don't think he's been good, he's been about as adequate as Garrison.
I noticed on 4 occasions when Tanev was on the ice with Garrison (for whatever reason) Garrison instantly looked more comfortable in his own zone. I think Garrison and Bieksa don't read off each other well.

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Old
02-18-2013, 04:54 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
At this point, I'd trade Ballard for Ehrhoff or M. Streit out of NYI (adding a minor prospect or a pick to even it up).

Though Ballard has played well, I liked Edler when he was the defensive conscience on his pairing. Not that Ehrhoff didn't have his faults (and his contract is just goofy).

Anyhow, I'd expect (hope?) Edler continues to improve. He looks jittery out there at times, and I wonder how he'd to against an aggressive forecheck.

The set player we acquire doesn't have to be an offensive type player. I think the balance of stay at home with hybrid D has always proved to be a successful recipe; ie,for every Doughty there is a Scuderi type.

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02-18-2013, 04:56 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
My entire argument is based on the opposite of this. I don't think he's been good, he's been about as adequate as Garrison.
We judge our defence way too harshly imo. Our team has played some really good hockey. A lot of that has to do with how much we ask from our defence. The aggressiveness of that puts a lot of pressure on them and can lead to some ugly moments and sometimes periods when they aren't clicking. It can also have us dominate a third period with 14 shots against a team that was only giving up 20 a game.

Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison and Edler can and will play better. Scary for everybody else.

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02-18-2013, 04:57 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by BerSTUzzi View Post
I noticed on 4 occasions when Tanev was on the ice with Garrison (for whatever reason) Garrison instantly looked more comfortable in his own zone. I think Garrison and Bieksa don't read off each other well.
but it's a lesser evil than a potential ballard - bieksa pairing, right?

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02-18-2013, 04:58 PM
  #940
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but it's a lesser evil than a potential ballard - bieksa pairing, right?
Oh god, the thought of game 6/7 vs Boston makes me want to puke.

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02-18-2013, 05:01 PM
  #941
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The sole reason people have a problem with Ballard is because he's being paid 4.2million$ to play on the 3rd pairing. After this season we'll be paying 4.6million$ to play Garrison to play on the the 3rd pairing.
Absolutely false. When Ballard was playing poorly he was critisized for being overpaid. Since he has played well and earned more ice, those complaints have stopped. He's still on the 3rd pairing.

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02-18-2013, 05:01 PM
  #942
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My entire argument is based on the opposite of this. I don't think he's been good, he's been about as adequate as Garrison.
I disagree. Edler is averaging 25TOI+, and doing more than adequate on his offside.

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02-18-2013, 05:03 PM
  #943
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Absolutely false. When Ballard was playing poorly he was critisized for being overpaid. Since he has played well and earned more ice, those complaints have stopped. He's still on the 3rd pairing.
It is not false. He is still being traded off this team after this season because of his salary, and everyone knows this. There are multiple comments in the ilk of, "If only Ballard had a 2/3million$ cap hit".

We are going to be playing Garrison (4.6$ for 5 additional years) on the third pairing next season if Edler can't convert to a RD.

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02-18-2013, 05:06 PM
  #944
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Ignore how Tyler Myers is playing right now but would you trade Edler for Myers?

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02-18-2013, 05:07 PM
  #945
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Fire Bowness. Too many blown leads with him in charge in his tenure. (5 this season alone)

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02-18-2013, 05:07 PM
  #946
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
We judge our defence way too harshly imo. Our team has played some really good hockey. A lot of that has to do with how much we ask from our defence. The aggressiveness of that puts a lot of pressure on them and can lead to some ugly moments and sometimes periods when they aren't clicking. It can also have us dominate a third period with 14 shots against a team that was only giving up 20 a game.

Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison and Edler can and will play better. Scary for everybody else.
Oh, I agree, we're awfully hard on them, but is there a team in the league that pays more for defensman than we do? I mean they are all on pretty cap friendly deals, but we're paying a lot of cap % for these guys to play a lot better.

To me its saddening to see how poorly a guy like Edler can look on his off side.

Definitely lots of room for improvement to be sure.
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Oh god, the thought of game 6/7 vs Boston makes me want to puke.
Ballard is a completely different player today than he was almost two years ago.

Might be worth another look?

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02-18-2013, 05:07 PM
  #947
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Prior to this season the problem with Ballard wasn't his salary; it's that he was basically unplayable for stretches and even at his best was playing like trash. The team didn't consider playing Baumgartner in the SCF ahead of him because he was overpaid; it was because he couldn't be counted on.

The Ballard of 2010-2012 would've gotten absolutely murdered in the minutes that Garrison is currently getting decent results in.

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02-18-2013, 05:09 PM
  #948
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It is not false. He is still being traded off this team after this season because of his salary, and everyone knows this. There are multiple comments in the ilk of, "If only Ballard had a 2/3million$ cap hit".
Not being able to afford a player is different than lamenting his salary because he's on the 3rd pair. I'm inclined to keep him if he keeps getting better for what it's worth. If you're looking to win shot differential 5 on 5 having a really good third pairing is a great way to do it.

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02-18-2013, 05:13 PM
  #949
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To me its saddening to see how poorly a guy like Edler can look on his off side.
You're exaggerating. How much better did he look on the left side last season? He was as bad or worse last season imo. Moving to the right side is going to take some time but is a worthwhile investment for this team imo and eventually he'll figure it out.

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02-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #950
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Fire Bowness. Too many blown leads with him in charge in his tenure. (5 this season alone)
How many comebacks?

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