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It's about to get real up in here: prospect rankings from 2007-08

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Old
02-18-2013, 03:13 PM
  #51
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I am pretty sure Kindl hit on Babs wife or something. He has been in consideration for our best d-man this year when in the lineup. Has improved his physical game a ton and his reward is.... In any case if they want to keep this up, they should probably just trade. Him there was a point in time where he was the problem in a Bogo trade, which I think points more to the coaching staff than how Nill and Holland evaluate him. Babs just doesn't like the kid, he never says his name right, it is embarrassing really. One of the strangest things I have watched.

To point of this thread, some of the guys you are arguing as passing him over probably have in a winged wheel. But don't kid yourself Lashoff still to this day has 2% of the potential of Kindl and if/when Kindl packs up his bags and leaves there is going to be a lot of headscratching why he looks so good elsewhere when he gets an opportunity.

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02-18-2013, 03:19 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
At the end of the day, the Wings are pulling the old Kyle Quincey move with Kindl right here.

Get ready for JK to get waiver wired or traded for chump change. And then watch him turn into a solid top 4 defenseman who scores 10 goals and 40 points a year.
Eh, I think Holland just wants to make sure he didn't make a mistake by letting Quincey go before; at this rate, Kindl will stay, and Quincey will be deadline bait.

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02-18-2013, 03:25 PM
  #53
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You're being obtuse. He is getting top 6 time due to Sammy, Bert and Mule being injured.
Mule only recently got injured, Bert played some games too. Cleary was still getting top minutes then.

I keep hearing this Kindl turnover crap. I'm just NOT seeing it. I'm watching every single game. He's made a few so far, but nothing to justify the kind of crap he's taking for it. Hell, Quincey makes a TON more. Kronwall makes more. White has made a few. Neither Quincey nor Kronwall are going to sit any games for their turnovers though. Meanwhile, Kindl is getting the yo-yo treatment for stringing together some of the best defensive play on the team for the past few games.

That he doesn't get played over Q/Lashoff/Huskins is not an argument. Some things Babcock/Holland do are inexplicable in terms of lineups. He is obsessed with that right handed shot on the PP, to the point where we use Sammy or Brunner, neither of which have proven to be any use there, and give us heart attacks every time they get pressured on the point. Short-handed goals here we come. He plays the hell out of Cleary, a guy who most of us now realize cannot compete as a top6er or PP guy. Puts Abby on the first line, barely uses Tootoo.

He does things that from our point of view make no sense. Maybe he has a reason. We certainly don't know it and he certainly isn't sharing. But that means you can't just use "Babcock is doing it" as justification.

I think the icing on the cake was when Kronwall makes a bad pass that ends up in a turnover and then a goal, Babcock singles out Kindl for being out of position. Haha.


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02-18-2013, 03:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I am pretty sure Kindl hit on Babs wife or something. He has been in consideration for our best d-man this year when in the lineup. Has improved his physical game a ton and his reward is.... In any case if they want to keep this up, they should probably just trade. Him there was a point in time where he was the problem in a Bogo trade, which I think points more to the coaching staff than how Nill and Holland evaluate him. Babs just doesn't like the kid, he never says his name right, it is embarrassing really. One of the strangest things I have watched.

To point of this thread, some of the guys you are arguing as passing him over probably have in a winged wheel. But don't kid yourself Lashoff still to this day has 2% of the potential of Kindl and if/when Kindl packs up his bags and leaves there is going to be a lot of headscratching why he looks so good elsewhere when he gets an opportunity.
He was a -34 in his first year in Grand Rapids, a combined -48 in his first two seasons. Jonathan Ericsson, who is not an offensive defenseman, put up more points in an AHL season than Kindl. Ericsson was also a +21 over 3 seasons, with two of those seasons coinciding with when Kindl was -48 with the Grififns. As Joe pointed out Kindl has one power play point with over 90 mins of power play ice time at the NHL level. Where's the offensive production? What is there to really show he's anything more than a #6/7 d-man who cannot contribute on special teams?

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02-18-2013, 03:35 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Mule only recently got injured, Bert played some games too. Cleary was still getting top minutes then.
Just go to Left Wing Lock and look up line combos since the start of the season. The most common top 6 has been:

Mule-Z-Brunner
Fil-Pavs-Bert

If you look over the past three games you get:

Pavs-Z-Brunner
Abby/Cleary-Z-Brunner

Curiously the most common line over the past three games is:

Miller-Emmerton-Tootoo

Seriously, the only reason Dan Cleary has gotten any top 6 time has been due to injuries to Mule, Bert and Sammy. Same deal with Abdelkader. When Bert and Mule are healthy these guys will no longer get top 6 IT.

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02-18-2013, 03:38 PM
  #56
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He was a -34 in his first year in Grand Rapids, a combined -48 in his first two seasons. Jonathan Ericsson, who is not an offensive defenseman, put up more points in an AHL season than Kindl. Ericsson was also a +21 over 3 seasons, with two of those seasons coinciding with when Kindl was -48 with the Grififns. As Joe pointed out Kindl has one power play point with over 90 mins of power play ice time at the NHL level. Where's the offensive production? What is there to really show he's anything more than a #6/7 d-man who cannot contribute on special teams?
Why are you using AHL stats? These guys are playing in the NHL now. You'd never use AHL stats to point to a guy that can't cut it in the NHL but tore it up in the AHL as proof he's a better player than a guy doing work in the NHL.

This season

Kronwall: 10 points, -9, 15 gp
Ericsson: 6 points, +2, 12 gp

Kindl: 3 points, +4, 9 gp

Lashoff: 2 points, -6, 11 gp
White: 2 points, +2, 10 gp
Smith: 1 point, +4, 8 gp
Huskins: 0 points, -1, 8 gp
QUINCEY: 0 points, +7, 15 gp

He has more points than Lashoff, White, Quincey Huskins, Smith. Most of them in less games. If you want to look at +/-, he's tied for second on the team's defense. Again, in less games than most.

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02-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
He was a -34 in his first year in Grand Rapids, a combined -48 in his first two seasons. Jonathan Ericsson, who is not an offensive defenseman, put up more points in an AHL season than Kindl. Ericsson was also a +21 over 3 seasons, with two of those seasons coinciding with when Kindl was -48 with the Grififns. As Joe pointed out Kindl has one power play point with over 90 mins of power play ice time at the NHL level. Where's the offensive production? What is there to really show he's anything more than a #6/7 d-man who cannot contribute on special teams?
Don't care about +/- ever. He also outproduces most of our D at even strength over the points per minute. There is quite a bit there to indicate he is a #6/7 guy he looks pretty good at it for the last season plus. Fine if you don't like him you, don't like him, but it isn't because he has no talent. I see plenty of it and minimal opportunities. Kindl has more talent in his pinky finger than Lashoff, he has been totally mismanaged in my opinion. What really bothers me if this is the route we were going we should have unloaded him when he had significant value, because there was a time that was the case.

Time will tell, but if he winds up somewhere else, he can pass a lot of the people listed as better than him in this category. It would be a mistake in my opinion and he shouldn't be sitting at all right now, that is joke. He gets caught up ice on a simple play where both Kronwall and Filppula screw up a routine play and he gets benched.

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02-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Why are you using AHL stats? These guys are playing in the NHL now. You'd never use AHL stats to point to a guy that can't cut it in the NHL but tore it up in the AHL as proof he's a better player than a guy doing work in the NHL.
You use AHL stats and experience when they mirror what's going on in the NHL. Just like the AHL Ericsson is getting top pairing minutes and is doing well. Kindl is getting sheltered so he doesn't put up another horrid +/- stat. Same with Quincey, although Quincey does PK quite a bit. Ericsson of course leads the defense in SH TOI. Lashoff is third.

All your stats show is that the Wings can protect Kindl by playing him against soft competition. His NHL offensive stats show he's not much of an offensive defenseman, just like the AHL.

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02-18-2013, 03:50 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Seriously, the only reason Dan Cleary has gotten any top 6 time has been due to injuries to Mule, Bert and Sammy. Same deal with Abdelkader. When Bert and Mule are healthy these guys will no longer get top 6 IT.
I was hoping when they got healthy Cleary would be put out to pasture. Unfortunately his ice time has been consistently high no matter who is around, because Babs likes him.

I actually think Cleary has at least been skating a little better and falling down less the last week and half. Still pretty awful performances, but I have seen a slight improvement in his skating.

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02-18-2013, 03:53 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I was hoping when they got healthy Cleary would be put out to pasture. Unfortunately his ice time has been consistently high no matter who is around, because Babs likes him.

I actually think Cleary has at least been skating a little better and falling down less the last week and half. Still pretty awful performances, but I have seen a slight improvement in his skating.
I also wonder if people are separating out short-handed ice time. Cleary averages 2 mins per 60 on the PK. So that's a big part of his ice time. With no Mule, Bert or Sammy he was also getting decent time on the power play.

With Bert, Sammy, Mule, Tatar they should help to cut into Dan Cleary's ice time. He should only play in the bottom 6 and on the PK and that will happen, hopefully sooner rather than later.

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02-18-2013, 04:02 PM
  #61
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I also wonder if people are separating out short-handed ice time. Cleary averages 2 mins per 60 on the PK. So that's a big part of his ice time. With no Mule, Bert or Sammy he was also getting decent time on the power play.

With Bert, Sammy, Mule, Tatar they should help to cut into Dan Cleary's ice time. He should only play in the bottom 6 and on the PK and that will happen, hopefully sooner rather than later.
I understand why he gets it up there, find it funny in an tread where you are arguing against Kindl's production go look at his production over 60 minutes at even strength. He crushes Quincey the last time I remember seeing that. Call it sheltered or whatever you want but Kindl does quite well with the minutes he does get over the last two seasons. He doesn't get many opportunites where as Cleary fails with big minutes, Quincey does nothing with much larger minutes. Kindl was the lead PK on the Czech EHT team earlier this season, he can do it give him a chance while our team has looked flat out awful, can it get worse by trying him? Has looked fine on the PP when there this season, but that second unit is dog**** right now. Most of the problems are up front and getting the zone, so hard to evaluate him there. He has the talent and a low hard shot that gets through. Was excited when it was him and Smith but that was short lived and I am guessing Colo will knock him back out when he returns.

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02-18-2013, 04:17 PM
  #62
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Riley Sheahan: disappointment but very likely an NHL player. Still has upside.
At what point did he disappoint you? Might it have been when he should have made Team Canada? Or are you disappointed now that he's playing very well in his first pro season?

At this point, I think his college career is irrelevant. He played a very defensive role on a very defensive team and it hurt him on paper.

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02-18-2013, 04:22 PM
  #63
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The success the Red Wings have had masked the organization's inability to handle prospects. Let's just hope they don't put off getting Jarnkrok, Jurco, Ouellet and Sproul in the AHL. All should be playing on the Griffins next year, I'm aware Jurco already is.
An interesting way to flip this is... what if Chris Illitch won't let the Wings be mediocre? Maybe at least until Mike passes. We've never had even the faintest idea that Illitch wouldn't do the right thing, but this is a different Illitch in charge now.

After all, about 80% of the TRULY irrational decisions made in sports are made because of an owner's demands.

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02-18-2013, 04:28 PM
  #64
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I like Kindl, and I think he should be playing over Lashoff. However, that's as far as I'd go. Right now, I'd probably run with:

Kronwall-White
Kindl-Ericsson
Q-Huskins

and use Kindl on the PK rather than the powerplay, just to get a look at him there. The guy has a great toolbox, but he still doesn't put it together with any consistency. He's trying out there, and a lot of nights are generally more positive than negative, but he's also shaky, hesitant, and inconsistent. As I said, I'd play him over Lashoff, and I'd get him out there on the PK, but he's 26 and he's still not playing in a way that demands more ice time.

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What I like about that list, is that those 8 guys on the top 10 prospects list from five years ago, is on the team today. Somebody is doing something right!
It is an impressive number that doesn't get enough appreciation. I'm not thrilled with the timelines DRW puts some of these kids on, but they have certainly gotten a lot out of their system.

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02-18-2013, 05:19 PM
  #65
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I like Kindl, and I think he should be playing over Lashoff. However, that's as far as I'd go. Right now, I'd probably run with:

Kronwall-White
Kindl-Ericsson
Q-Huskins

and use Kindl on the PK rather than the powerplay, just to get a look at him there. The guy has a great toolbox, but he still doesn't put it together with any consistency. He's trying out there, and a lot of nights are generally more positive than negative, but he's also shaky, hesitant, and inconsistent. As I said, I'd play him over Lashoff, and I'd get him out there on the PK, but he's 26 and he's still not playing in a way that demands more ice time.



It is an impressive number that doesn't get enough appreciation. I'm not thrilled with the timelines DRW puts some of these kids on, but they have certainly gotten a lot out of their system.
If you put an offensive defenseman out there in a strictly defensive role, you're going to regret it.

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02-18-2013, 05:24 PM
  #66
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If you put an offensive defenseman out there in a strictly defensive role, you're going to regret it.
Part of even while I don't like Quincey it explains his total lack of offense.

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02-18-2013, 05:33 PM
  #67
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Who knows how good Kindl could've been or is. He is 26 years old and hasn't even played the equivalent of two NHL seasons yet.

How come we got to watch Ericsson look like pure and utter crap for an entire season as a "rookie", playing at least top 5 regular minutes, but not Kindl? How come we got to watch Brett Lebda screw up on a nightly basis, but not Kindl? What about all those nights where Derek Meech got the call, but not Kindl?


My point is NOT that Kindl is better than he's been given credit for. Maybe he IS just an average player. But what if he's one of those guys that simply needs to be given a regular role where he doesn't have to worry that one mistake means his ass is glued to the bench? If he did suck for an entire season, would we have been any worse off when we had guys like Lidstrom and Stuart to shelter his potential mistakes? In the alternate, if he did NOT suck, then maybe he'd already be a Top 4 defenseman by now, a la Ericsson.

There's something to be said for "winning a roster spot," but not when the guys you're promoting over that youngster are the Brett Lebdas of the NHL.

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02-18-2013, 06:30 PM
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There is something to be said for winning a roster spot.
For the most part, it's utter garbage.
At some point, you let a kid know that, hey, this job is yours. Go out there and play. Listen to my suggestions. Work hard. And we'll live with your mistakes if you take our suggestions to heart.



Lashoff has done nothing in games to hold his spot, yet he's been getting regular minutes with our best line.
Perhaps as a result, our leading scorer is merely +1 and our best defenseman is -9.

Nik Kronwall isn't Lidstrom in his prime. I'm not even sure he's Lidstrom at the very end with a bum ankle.
You can't stick kronwall with whatever bum you find-- a washed up Murphy, or Olausson, or a Dandenault, Bykov etc... and expect him to play.

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02-18-2013, 06:35 PM
  #69
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Who knows how good Kindl could've been or is. He is 26 years old and hasn't even played the equivalent of two NHL seasons yet.

How come we got to watch Ericsson look like pure and utter crap for an entire season as a "rookie", playing at least top 5 regular minutes, but not Kindl? How come we got to watch Brett Lebda screw up on a nightly basis, but not Kindl? What about all those nights where Derek Meech got the call, but not Kindl?


My point is NOT that Kindl is better than he's been given credit for. Maybe he IS just an average player. But what if he's one of those guys that simply needs to be given a regular role where he doesn't have to worry that one mistake means his ass is glued to the bench? If he did suck for an entire season, would we have been any worse off when we had guys like Lidstrom and Stuart to shelter his potential mistakes? In the alternate, if he did NOT suck, then maybe he'd already be a Top 4 defenseman by now, a la Ericsson.

There's something to be said for "winning a roster spot," but not when the guys you're promoting over that youngster are the Brett Lebdas of the NHL.
You got to watch Ericsson simply because management liked him better. The way they are treating Kindl will always blow my mind.

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02-18-2013, 06:56 PM
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He was a -34 in his first year in Grand Rapids, a combined -48 in his first two seasons. Jonathan Ericsson, who is not an offensive defenseman, put up more points in an AHL season than Kindl. Ericsson was also a +21 over 3 seasons, with two of those seasons coinciding with when Kindl was -48 with the Grififns. As Joe pointed out Kindl has one power play point with over 90 mins of power play ice time at the NHL level. Where's the offensive production? What is there to really show he's anything more than a #6/7 d-man who cannot contribute on special teams?
My good. Look at the difference of teams Ericsson and Kindl played on in the AHL. Carl Corazzini, Mark Cullen, Garret Stafford, etc. etc. etc.
Kindl was 20 years old playing his first pro year for an absolute crap team.

Ericsson's big AHL year (10 goals, 34 points) came at 23.
Kindl, at 21, showed big improved (33 points) -- again playing for a team led by no-offense guys like Haydar and Abdelkader and Pare and McGrath,

At 22, Kindl's team was lead by Rismiller and Jeremy Williams.



Look at Kindl's NHL even strength production per minute (despite terribly unskilled linemates) over the last season.

I think only Kronwall and White are ahead of him.
Kindl, I think, produced at a better rate than Lidstrom.

Actually I was wrong
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

Kindl produced better than Kronwall and White and Lidstrom and Stuart and Ericsson and Quincey.

Give Kindl and this was despite playing with Ericsson, Abdelkader and Miller more than anyone else.

What does it tell you when Kindl is producing points despite playing with guys who don't produce points?

What do you think would happen if Kindl played in an offensive role? By chance, what would happen if Kindl and Kronwall switched jobs for a month?

Would our offensive be hurt? Would our defense be hurt?


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02-18-2013, 07:02 PM
  #71
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You got to watch Ericsson simply because management liked him better. The way they are treating Kindl will always blow my mind.
Kindl must be one of the worst practice players of all-time. I don't know why that matters so much. They basically said he was close to making the team as a 20 year old with Lidstrom during the preseason, but they didn't like some of his practice habits back then. It is clear to me at least that Babcock and Kindl don't see eye to eye on some things. Because his play while not awesome has never really deserved the benching/press box and cutting of ice time. Could he earn more? Sure, but he has rarely deserved the considerable blame he got, the real only problem was his total lack of physical game for a while. I think there has been a huge improvement the last year in that area and it is strange he doesn't get any credit for it.

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02-18-2013, 07:19 PM
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Kindl is one of three dmen I see regularly using his size to push people around this year. Kronwall, White, Q don't really do it.

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02-18-2013, 07:45 PM
  #73
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Kindl is one of three dmen I see regularly using his size to push people around this year. Kronwall, White, Q don't really do it.
One of these things is not like the others...

Ericsson and Lashoff are the only "regulars" who actually try to be physical while mucking with opposing forwards; Kindl definitely does that when he's in.

It really seems that the only thing Quincey does is crosscheck people, and Kronwall just goes for open-ice hits; Huskins doesn't really use his size, but at least he doesn't get knocked around.

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02-18-2013, 07:46 PM
  #74
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Actually I was wrong
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

Kindl produced better than Kronwall and White and Lidstrom and Stuart and Ericsson and Quincey.

Give Kindl and this was despite playing with Ericsson, Abdelkader and Miller more than anyone else.

What does it tell you when Kindl is producing points despite playing with guys who don't produce points?

What do you think would happen if Kindl played in an offensive role? By chance, what would happen if Kindl and Kronwall switched jobs for a month?

Would our offensive be hurt? Would our defense be hurt?
By that same measure, he was dead last on the team in 10-11. I'm not sure either season speaks to his true abilities but both have to be taken into account.

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02-18-2013, 08:25 PM
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By that same measure, he was dead last on the team in 10-11. I'm not sure either season speaks to his true abilities but both have to be taken into account.
Except one should surmise that a second year pro will be better than a first year pro. And Kindl was.
And again, in very limited time again this year, his numbers are very good (even strength production). 2nd on the team.

1.45 points per 60 minutes. Behind Ericsson (1.84) and nearly twice or more the rate of every other defenseman on the team.

What Kindl has done is follow his career track record.

His first OHL season was bad. And then he improved.
His first AHL season was bad, and then he improved.
His first NHL season was bad, and then he improved.

By any objective standard, this is a guy who produces better than most other defenseman on the team, despite playing with inferior talent.

Now, I'm not saying Kindl is going to be awesome.
But I think he can be a very good, useful defenseman who plays top 4 minutes and plays on the PP.

He's got the skillset and a better head for the game than Quincey.

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