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Subban's play since coming back

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:15 AM
  #326
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
No one knows where PK will end up, but learning "hockey sense" is a hard thing. He's got all the talent of the top guys so, if somehow he has an epiphany and becomes dominant on the mental side, he will surely be considered elite. I just wouldn't bet on that happening.
You've repeated this often. What's this lack of hockey sense you're talking about?
Pk has no problem reading plays. The only time he is caught out of position is when he tries to deliver a hit, but that's a timing issue not hockey sense.

PK's flaw was/is that he wants to do it all. He wants to deliver the big hit, score the big goal, make the big plays. He has the talent to do all of these things, he lacks a bit of poise, but that's something he'll improve on with time. He already improved compared to last year.

So again, what are these mental mistakes? You're pretty much backing up my idea that you're not seeing things correctly and your assessment of PK isn't very precise.

Everybody makes mistakes, but it makes no sense that someone who lacks hockey sense can be as effective as PK was playing big minutes versus top opponents. He wouldn't be making all those nice plays if he lacked sense.
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Dude, you are the one who has been trying to pass your "advanced stats" off as gospel when it comes to ranking players. Obviously they can be useful, but they certainly can be diminished when you try to use them to argue that PK Subban is equal to or better than Oliver Ekman-Larsson.
Actually all I said was that the stats are saying the opposite of what you are, and coincidentally (or not so much), exactly what I saw. At the very least, it is a close call. I said they are on par, that the difference comes from a playing style. One is a lot more aggressive than the other, and because of that, he can be caught.
I attribute this to timing and experience, you think it's hockey sense.

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:34 AM
  #327
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You guys do know you're never gonna agree with one another right? It's just a matter of perception. In the end the one making brash claims may end up looking like a genius or a complete idiot in the end. The other, more conservative who gives a chance of occurrence to most situations won't look like an idiot nor a genius.

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02-18-2013, 10:05 AM
  #328
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Anyone want to weigh in (no pun intended) on the pros and cons of Subban's jump from 206 to 220 pounds?

I'll start. He doesn't look as explosive.

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02-18-2013, 12:41 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I just don't see the criticism of Subban's hockey sense. Can someone post a video of him doing something stupid? I think the issue is that he is aggressive, he moves forward for the attack, and then people think "oh my god he's blowing cover by pinching !!!" , but that's not stupidity, that's aggression.

For me, hockey sense means properly guessing where the other players are and where they're going to be, and I see no evidence PK lacks that.
It's not about him doing something "stupid", although that is something he has to grow out of as well(penalties, trying to do too much, but with maturity that should disappear). Hockey sense is about constantly being 2 steps ahead. Knowing, not guessing, where everyone is on the ice at all times. Having that poise with the puck, and the ability to fake guys out without even having to deke them. We get front row seats to elite hockey sense every game with Andrei Markov, yet people still fail to notice the difference between him and PK. There is no stat that can quantify it, but it is the most important talent in all of hockey.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You've repeated this often. What's this lack of hockey sense you're talking about?
Pk has no problem reading plays. The only time he is caught out of position is when he tries to deliver a hit, but that's a timing issue not hockey sense.
See above.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So again, what are these mental mistakes? You're pretty much backing up my idea that you're not seeing things correctly and your assessment of PK isn't very precise.
Says you, Kriss. I say, you aren't seeing things correctly. So...
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Everybody makes mistakes, but it makes no sense that someone who lacks hockey sense can be as effective as PK was playing big minutes versus top opponents. He wouldn't be making all those nice plays if he lacked sense.
Sure he would, and he did. As an example a guy like Kovalev, who was a pretty great player, lacked hockey sense relative to the elite. He still made tons of highlight reel plays, but he made them due to his elite technical skills, like PK.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually all I said was that the stats are saying the opposite of what you are, and coincidentally (or not so much), exactly what I saw. At the very least, it is a close call. I said they are on par, that the difference comes from a playing style. One is a lot more aggressive than the other, and because of that, he can be caught.
I attribute this to timing and experience, you think it's hockey sense.
You must watch more OEL. He's definitely an aggressive player, he's just much smarter with how he plays. Anyways, we're obviously done here. I've refuted your attempts to discredit my opinion, and now we're just arguing for no reason. You think they are on the same level, I don't.
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
You guys do know you're never gonna agree with one another right? It's just a matter of perception. In the end the one making brash claims may end up looking like a genius or a complete idiot in the end. The other, more conservative who gives a chance of occurrence to most situations won't look like an idiot nor a genius.
Yup, you're absolutely right. I don't care about looking like anything, I'm just calling it as I see it.

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02-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by bib View Post
Anyone want to weigh in (no pun intended) on the pros and cons of Subban's jump from 206 to 220 pounds?

I'll start. He doesn't look as explosive.
I think he's playing a bit calmer, which is why you think he isn't as explosive. I like what he's doing right now, and I think Markov is having a real positive effect on him.

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02-18-2013, 01:16 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You've repeated this often. What's this lack of hockey sense you're talking about?
Pk has no problem reading plays. The only time he is caught out of position is when he tries to deliver a hit, but that's a timing issue not hockey sense.

PK's flaw was/is that he wants to do it all. He wants to deliver the big hit, score the big goal, make the big plays. He has the talent to do all of these things, he lacks a bit of poise, but that's something he'll improve on with time. He already improved compared to last year.

So again, what are these mental mistakes? You're pretty much backing up my idea that you're not seeing things correctly and your assessment of PK isn't very precise.

Everybody makes mistakes, but it makes no sense that someone who lacks hockey sense can be as effective as PK was playing big minutes versus top opponents. He wouldn't be making all those nice plays if he lacked sense.

Actually all I said was that the stats are saying the opposite of what you are, and coincidentally (or not so much), exactly what I saw. At the very least, it is a close call. I said they are on par, that the difference comes from a playing style. One is a lot more aggressive than the other, and because of that, he can be caught.
I attribute this to timing and experience, you think it's hockey sense.
he has yet to show it.

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Old
02-18-2013, 02:51 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
It's not about him doing something "stupid", although that is something he has to grow out of as well(penalties, trying to do too much, but with maturity that should disappear). Hockey sense is about constantly being 2 steps ahead. Knowing, not guessing, where everyone is on the ice at all times. Having that poise with the puck, and the ability to fake guys out without even having to deke them. We get front row seats to elite hockey sense every game with Andrei Markov, yet people still fail to notice the difference between him and PK. There is no stat that can quantify it, but it is the most important talent in all of hockey.
See above.
Poise can come with experience. PK is already showing more poise this year than last year.
Hockey sense is vision. You either have it or you don't. If you don't, then you'll never become great. If you don't, you will not be an effective #1 Dman facing the toughest opposition, playing upwards of 28min. Not. Going. To. Happen.

As for the knowing not guessing part. How often does PK break up plays? Or maybe you don't notice him breaking up those plays. You say you watch him play attentively? So, how come you're missing that?

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Says you, Kriss. I say, you aren't seeing things correctly. So...
At least I have advanced stats to back me up, you know, something objective.
And again, I'm not the one arguing one is miles ahead of the other.

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Sure he would, and he did. As an example a guy like Kovalev, who was a pretty great player, lacked hockey sense relative to the elite. He still made tons of highlight reel plays, but he made them due to his elite technical skills, like PK.
Kovalev lacked consistency. He's a player that floats around with great offensive vision with lazy defensive skills.
Not sure how they compare.

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
You must watch more OEL. He's definitely an aggressive player, he's just much smarter with how he plays. Anyways, we're obviously done here. I've refuted your attempts to discredit my opinion, and now we're just arguing for no reason. You think they are on the same level, I don't.
No I don't. I know he's a great young player. They have different styles, that's it.

But you're the one that focuses on him. I said my eyes told me PK and OEL are pretty much on par. The stats back me up. You want to throw them away and say your eyes are better. Fine.

Still doesn't explain the ridiculousness of Hamilton or Jones being better.

This all started because you said you could easily name a list of under 25 D that were clearly better today than PK. Only 3 names made sense as clearly better.

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02-18-2013, 03:54 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
This all started because you said you could easily name a list of under 25 D that were clearly better today than PK. Only 3 names made sense as clearly better.
We clearly watch hockey differently so I won't even bother with the rest of your post as this is getting nowhere, but on this, I never did provide that list because of fans like you who will freak out when someone tells you that PK Subban isn't the best.

There are a bunch of guys 25 and under that I think are better than Subban atm, and there are others that I think are clearly more valuable longterm than he is. Hamilton and the #1 pick in next years draft being 2 of them.

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02-18-2013, 03:59 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
We clearly watch hockey differently so I won't even bother with the rest of your post as this is getting nowhere, but on this, I never did provide that list because of fans like you who will freak out when someone tells you that PK Subban isn't the best.

There are a bunch of guys 25 and under that I think are better than Subban atm, and there are others that I think are clearly more valuable longterm than he is. Hamilton and the #1 pick in next years draft being 2 of them.
Nobody here has said anything of the sort. Leave the strawman arguments out of this. It cheapens your entire post.

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02-18-2013, 04:08 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Nobody here has said anything of the sort. Leave the strawman arguments out of this. It cheapens your entire post.
When comparing PK to the absolute best young dmen in the league, you are effectively calling him the best. At that point, it really is just a matter of preference.
There is no way to make a respectable argument to PK being the best of his age group. Hamilton, Brodin? You bet they're the best of their age group. OEL? Imo, he will get Norris recognition this year. There is a clear argument for him belonging to the group of the best D in the whole league already.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
How is Hamilton at 19 better than PK was at 19?

Hamilton was a +25 with 41 points in 32 OHL games, Subban was a a +47 with 76 points in 56 games.

In short, one can argue that Hamilton has the potential to become PK Subban.

PK also had a better WJC.
Really?
At 18 Hamilton already bested that with 72 points in 50 games and 23 points in 20 playoff games.
At 19 Dougie Hamilton is the #4 Dman on maybe the best team in the NHL.
When was PK ever considered the top D-prospect in the world? Jones just took that honor from, guess who? Dougie Hamilton.


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02-18-2013, 04:25 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
When comparing PK to the absolute best young dmen in the league, you are effectively calling him the best. At that point, it really is just a matter of preference.
There is no way to make a respectable argument to PK being the best of his age group. Hamilton, Brodin? You bet they're the best of their age group. OEL? Imo, he will get Norris recognition this year. There is a clear argument for him belonging to the group of the best D in the whole league already.
So your opinion is a bad prediction?

The Norris tends to lean towards offensive production. Subban is currently 0.75 with the least ice time out of anyone else in the Top 10 of PPG average. OEL is not even Top 30 right now. That's while OEL is top 20 in average ice time among defencemen while Subban is still under 20 on average and playing the third string with Cube.

At this moment, with less points and less games, Subban has a better argument for Norris contention than OEL. And I'll predict neither will get a Norris nod this season. Take your pom poms elsewhere.

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02-18-2013, 04:43 PM
  #337
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So your opinion is a bad prediction?
Call it what you want. I never said he'd win, but he should get recognized.

Take your weak insults elsewhere.

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02-18-2013, 04:59 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
When comparing PK to the absolute best young dmen in the league, you are effectively calling him the best.
Yeah, no. I'm going to deny you this one.

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02-18-2013, 05:19 PM
  #339
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Susan may never win the Norris.

He has no recognition.

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02-18-2013, 05:26 PM
  #340
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Yeah, no. I'm going to deny you this one.
How so? You know exactly what I mean. Arguing my point is truly nitpicking. PK does not compare to the best, by doing so you are essentially calling him one of the best.

Come on guys, do you really think he is THAT good? You know he isn't, think with your brain, not with your heart.

If you don't know OEL as a player, fine, that's cool. I'm not trying to judge you. If you do know him, yet don't think he is that good, then that's cool too. I strongly disagree, but it's cool. Just don't post here trying to nitpick and pile on if you haven't a clue really. That's not fair.

Remember, I am as big a fan of the Habs as there is. I love Subban as a player, but I'm not a homer. I watch too much hockey from all around the league for me to lie and say PK is on OELs level. It's just not true, imo of course!

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02-18-2013, 05:41 PM
  #341
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Subban is amazing. We are lucky to have a player like him.

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02-18-2013, 06:02 PM
  #342
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Susan may never win the Norris.

He has no recognition.
If Subban win a Norris, HfBoard will explode.

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02-18-2013, 06:50 PM
  #343
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Subban is amazing. We are lucky to have a player like him.
I'll say it again and again until Subban is (at least) a Norris candidate...he's the best dman we've ever had...offense/defense/playoff warrior/all-heart/not frail/shut-down beast/ice-time machine/skating/hard-shot/mega talent,sky is the limit potential,etc... Still can't believe PK was available in the 2nd Rnd (should have been top 3 overall imo). And we're nothing without Subban in playoffs (we also need Gorges in playoffs).

Can't imagine a lineup without Subban (especially with Markov who scares me with his 1 year injuries...hopefully he stays healthy for once).


Not as nice without Subban (very soft):
Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Diaz
Bouillon-Weber/Kaberle.

And, no Subban, no Markov......we better be getting a top 5 overall pick:
Kaberle-Gorges
Emelin-Diaz
Bouillon-Weber


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02-18-2013, 07:22 PM
  #344
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Subban is such a beast tonight. OEL wishes he can shut down opponents with hits like that.

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02-18-2013, 08:57 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
We clearly watch hockey differently so I won't even bother with the rest of your post as this is getting nowhere, but on this, I never did provide that list because of fans like you who will freak out when someone tells you that PK Subban isn't the best.

There are a bunch of guys 25 and under that I think are better than Subban atm, and there are others that I think are clearly more valuable longterm than he is. Hamilton and the #1 pick in next years draft being 2 of them.
I never said PK was the best. In fact, I even agreed with some of the names you listed.
I won't freak out about anything, never have, never will. PK is a great young player, and yes, he is part of the best young Dman of this league. He still has some learning to do, but that shouldn't take anything away.

Here's the list you provided:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I'm just saying that he is not on the level of the top group of young defencemen. ie Doughty, OEL, Karlsson, Brodin, Hedman, Hamilton, Pietro etc.

In my opinion? There are a bunch that I'd trade PK for, I'd rather not get into a deep list as it'll just be an argument, considering I'd take guys like Mcdonagh over PK, and I'm sure that won't sit well here.
Karlsson, Doughty, Pietro, I agree. Hamilton, Brodin and Jones shouldn't even be mentioned. Two of them have played 12 games, the other isn't even drafted. It's insulting to PK. Will they become better than PK? Perhaps. Except you already mentioned not knowing where PK will cap off. Considering he's already effectively played as a #1 Dman versus top opponents, and I stress the word effectively, than the sky is the limit. Also, I made a comparable to Chara-Weber, Niedermayer-Lidstrom, at some point it isn't about who's better, it's simply who you prefer because of their style.

I don't think OEL or McDo are better either. IMO, all three of those guys are on the same level.

Hedman is solid defensively, like PK, but he doesn't have the same offensive abilities.

It's as if you think PK is MDZ. Your evaluation is completely off if we look at all the things you've been saying.

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Old
02-18-2013, 09:07 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I never said PK was the best. In fact, I even agreed with some of the names you listed.
I won't freak out about anything, never have, never will. PK is a great young player, and yes, he is part of the best young Dman of this league. He still has some learning to do, but that shouldn't take anything away.

Here's the list you provided:



Karlsson, Doughty, Pietro, I agree. Hamilton, Brodin and Jones shouldn't even be mentioned. Two of them have played 12 games, the other isn't even drafted. It's insulting to PK. Will they become better than PK? Perhaps. Except you already mentioned not knowing where PK will cap off. Considering he's already effectively played as a #1 Dman versus top opponents, and I stress the word effectively, than the sky is the limit. Also, I made a comparable to Chara-Weber, Niedermayer-Lidstrom, at some point it isn't about who's better, it's simply who you prefer because of their style.

I don't think OEL or McDo are better either. IMO, all three of those guys are on the same level.

Hedman is solid defensively, like PK, but he doesn't have the same offensive abilities.

It's as if you think PK is MDZ. Your evaluation is completely off if we look at all the things you've been saying.
I already explained to you Kriss that Brodin and Hamilton, I feel, are the best of the rookies and, imo, elite bluechippers. The others I feel are all better than PK right now.

On topic, great game by PK tonight, again not trying to do too much except for a play or two. If he can just be solid like that, play physical and keep learning, we're in good shape.

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02-18-2013, 09:08 PM
  #347
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In a word: Excellent.

He is a great hockey player and for the next two seasons, maybe the best for value.

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02-18-2013, 09:09 PM
  #348
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I don't understand how you can watch tonight's game and not think Subban is one of the best under 25 dmen in the NHL. The Prust goal was off a rush engineered by Subban who made a great play to get the offense going. He gave some solid hits, was solid defensively and every time he had the puck he made good plays. What's not to like ?

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02-18-2013, 09:12 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't understand how you can watch tonight's game and not think Subban is one of the best under 25 dmen in the NHL. The Prust goal was off a rush engineered by Subban who made a great play to get the offense going. He gave some solid hits, was solid defensively and every time he had the puck he made good plays. What's not to like ?
And the pass to Plekanec

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02-18-2013, 09:28 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't understand how you can watch tonight's game and not think Subban is one of the best under 25 dmen in the NHL. The Prust goal was off a rush engineered by Subban who made a great play to get the offense going. He gave some solid hits, was solid defensively and every time he had the puck he made good plays. What's not to like ?
Right, and I don't see how someone lacking hockey sense can make so many good plays. Just doesn't add up.

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