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Flames - Don't rebuild...reload

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Old
02-18-2013, 06:57 PM
  #1
Rockmorton
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Flames - Don't rebuild...reload

Here is how the Flames can change the makeup of the team without doing a "scorched earth" rebuild. It only involves a few ballsy steps, and even if it doesnt succeed, they would be no worse off than they are now. It must be accepted at the start to stay somewhat competitive, but probably burn the rest of this year and next. If you need to have a "lost" season, this would be ideal. I think thats all that would be needed, but management must be willing to take a step back. Here goes:

Trade Iginla Kiprussoff and Bouwmeester in separate deals. Start the discussions now to get the bidding started. All three of these guys are what I consider "over the top" players. They aren't going to be the future of the team, but in a short playoff run, they could be the last piece a team needs. With the bidding war that would ensue,
I think the minimum we could expect would be:
Iginla - decent player, "A" level prospect (not blue chip), and a 1st.
Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Bouw - decent player, "A" level prospect and a 1st

That gives us 2 roster players, 3 good prospects, and an additional 3 1sts.

Second, you make two lists: keepers and available.

Keep - Brodie, Baertchi, Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Wideman, Taylor, Ramo, Brossoit, Horak, Gaudreau, Reinhart and the 5 players acquired in the trades

You make a second list of essentially everyone else under contract in the organization. You take that and approach the Avalanche about O'Reilly (if he's still available by this point, of course). Tell them to pick any three players on the list OR any two and a draft pick. At the very least, that should get a conversation going. No one is "untouchable", but any inclusion of the players on the Keep list changes the nature of the negotiation.

On draft day, we can either go on a 1st round shopping spree, or trade them for needs of the organization, but not until we know we're not trading away Jones/Mackinnon for example.

Ice the best team you can put on the ice for the rest of this year. Put the C on Giordano, give an A to Cammalleri and Glencross. Give the team a whole 82 game schedule to gel, tinker when neccessary and I think you've constructed a rebuild that will keep you somewhat competitive, while restocking the cupboards.

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02-18-2013, 07:03 PM
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Sounds to me like you're overvaluing Kipper and Bouwmeester.

Also, acquiring mostly picks and prospects for your top players is more or less the precise definition of rebuilding.

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02-18-2013, 07:06 PM
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416Leafer
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Sounds to me like you're overvaluing Kipper and Bouwmeester.
I agree.


I think Calgary SHOULD sell off these assets mind you. But the return also wont be equivalent to the OPs ideas. There are very few young pieces on the team, and even less with any legitimate potential. The team needs a pretty major makeover. Luckily for Calgary, they do have better assets worth selling than a lot of teams when they start a rebuild, so it shouldnt take as long as Edmontons for example.

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02-18-2013, 07:07 PM
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Also, in order to "reload" you have to first have been armed and dangerous. The Flames aren't, and haven't been for awhile.

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02-18-2013, 07:08 PM
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TheHudlinator
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No way Kipper gets that much and I would much rather move Gio before Jbo

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02-18-2013, 07:09 PM
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Flamesjustwin
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Also, in order to "reload" you have to first have been armed and dangerous. The Flames aren't, and haven't been for awhile.
The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?

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02-18-2013, 07:10 PM
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I honestly dont think so. If you can play teams against one another, who knows. If a team feels it is a contender, but only feels it needs to solidify its goaltending, a first and a prospect isnt out of the question.

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02-18-2013, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Sounds to me like you're overvaluing Kipper and Bouwmeester.

Also, acquiring mostly picks and prospects for your top players is more or less the precise definition of rebuilding.
Just Kipper. He would bring home a 1st.

JayBow would demand the return the OP stated, but the Flames would have to retain roughly 1.6 million IMO. JayBow at 5million is great value!
_____________________________________

I like the idea of a retool-rebuild instead of a scorched-earth-rebuild. If this took place, I would definitely want them to look long and hard into the O'Reilly situation, and shop a couple 1st's. Keep two (ideally the best ones) and see whats out there.

Another target I would look at is Bobby Ryan. Sportsnet was suggesting that may look to trade him for the cap space in retaining Getz and Perry. He would obviously demand a big return, but it would be interesting to look into.

Like your thinking.

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02-18-2013, 07:12 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?
Detroit is a better team than Calgary currently, and the prospect pools between the two aren't even close. Try again.

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02-18-2013, 07:13 PM
  #10
OCPenguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
Here is how the Flames can change the makeup of the team without doing a "scorched earth" rebuild. It only involves a few ballsy steps, and even if it doesnt succeed, they would be no worse off than they are now. It must be accepted at the start to stay somewhat competitive, but probably burn the rest of this year and next. If you need to have a "lost" season, this would be ideal. I think thats all that would be needed, but management must be willing to take a step back. Here goes:

Trade Iginla Kiprussoff and Bouwmeester in separate deals. Start the discussions now to get the bidding started. All three of these guys are what I consider "over the top" players. They aren't going to be the future of the team, but in a short playoff run, they could be the last piece a team needs. With the bidding war that would ensue,
I think the minimum we could expect would be:
Iginla - decent player, "A" level prospect (not blue chip), and a 1st.
Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Bouw - decent player, "A" level prospect and a 1st

That gives us 2 roster players, 3 good prospects, and an additional 3 1sts.

Second, you make two lists: keepers and available.

Keep - Brodie, Baertchi, Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Wideman, Taylor, Ramo, Brossoit, Horak, Gaudreau, Reinhart and the 5 players acquired in the trades

You make a second list of essentially everyone else under contract in the organization. You take that and approach the Avalanche about O'Reilly (if he's still available by this point, of course). Tell them to pick any three players on the list OR any two and a draft pick. At the very least, that should get a conversation going. No one is "untouchable", but any inclusion of the players on the Keep list changes the nature of the negotiation.

On draft day, we can either go on a 1st round shopping spree, or trade them for needs of the organization, but not until we know we're not trading away Jones/Mackinnon for example.

Ice the best team you can put on the ice for the rest of this year. Put the C on Giordano, give an A to Cammalleri and Glencross. Give the team a whole 82 game schedule to gel, tinker when neccessary and I think you've constructed a rebuild that will keep you somewhat competitive, while restocking the cupboards.
No offense, but unload those players you mention and there is still a glaring problem on the roster Those three bring you solid picks and prospects in return, not necessarily young ready kids.

You can get alot in return for others that aren't exactly core guys moving forward. Glencross seems to be a crowd favorite and why shouldn't he be? That said, alot of teams would be bidding on him, should he be available. You would get a better return on him than Kipper and JayBo.

The farm system is bare and you need talent moving forward.

Eat 2.5 million on Cammelari's contract and you can get a good return for him too.

Now is the time to take three years and rebuild. A deep draft this year could help Calgary with acquired picks. JMO

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02-18-2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?
I'm a Canucks fan. I agree with him. Is my opinion more valid because my team owned your team last time we met?

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02-18-2013, 07:15 PM
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416Leafer
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?
How so? Detroits ahead of Calgary in the standings, has a better prospect pool, has a more competent GM and scouting staff, has younger core pieces (Datsyuk and Zetterberg are younger than Iginla and Kipper), and has the best player between the two teams (Datsyuk vs Iginla)...

But hey, Calgary beat Detroit once, so Calgary as a franchise has a far better future? Right.

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02-18-2013, 07:16 PM
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Jray42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?
The Flames are in the worst spot of any team in the NHL right now, and have been for some time. You guys really don't have anything in terms of a prospect pool outside of Baertschi/Jankowski, and no great young talent on the NHL roster.

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02-18-2013, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No offense, but unload those players you mention and there is still a glaring problem on the roster Those three bring you solid picks and prospects in return, not necessarily young ready kids.

You can get alot in return for others that aren't exactly core guys moving forward. Glencross seems to be a crowd favorite and why shouldn't he be? That said, alot of teams would be bidding on him, should he be available. You would get a better return on him than Kipper and JayBo.

The farm system is bare and you need talent moving forward.

Eat 2.5 million on Cammelari's contract and you can get a good return for him too.

Now is the time to take three years and rebuild. A deep draft this year could help Calgary with acquired picks. JMO
Check your facts before posting. "Bare" is a terrible adjective to describe the Flame's farm.
Gaudreau, Baertschi, Sieloff, Jankowski, Culkin, Wotherspoon, Granlund, Gillies, Brossoit... These are solid prospects.

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02-18-2013, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
How so? Detroits ahead of Calgary in the standings, has a better prospect pool, has a more competent GM and scouting staff, has younger core pieces (Datsyuk and Zetterberg are younger than Iginla and Kipper), and has the best player between the two teams (Datsyuk vs Iginla)...

But hey, Calgary beat Detroit once, so Calgary as a franchise has a far better future? Right.
The sad thing is he made that statement when Detroit is ahead in the standings... And has a third of their team on the IR.

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02-18-2013, 07:19 PM
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Check your facts before posting. "Bare" is a terrible adjective to describe the Flame's farm.
Gaudreau, Baertschi, Sieloff, Jankowski, Culkin, Wotherspoon, Granlund, Gillies, Brossoit... These are solid prospects.
Prospects that pretty much every team in the NHL has.... Except the Flames have no young NHL roster player talent right now.

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02-18-2013, 07:21 PM
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Prospects that pretty much every team in the NHL has.... Except the Flames have no young NHL roster player talent right now.
Yep I wish we had an Eller, or a Tanev, or a Granlund. To bad we are stuck with the old bums like Backlund,Brodie, Baertschi

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02-18-2013, 07:21 PM
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-Glencross won't be moved anytime soon.
-Iginla can be traded for a 1st+Good prospect(s).
-The Flames have some good prospects in Horak, Byron, Bärtschi, Bouma, and even Street. There was hardly room in the top 9, and we had Bärt forced into the fourth line. We can have a completely new core if Iginla and a few others like Stemps and Stajan are moved.

Ownership wants the team to remain competitive. So this forces Management to build through the draft. But we know the Feaster is trying to retool the team already.

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02-18-2013, 07:22 PM
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I'm a Canucks fan. I agree with him. Is my opinion more valid because my team owned your team last time we met?
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
But hey, Calgary beat Detroit once, so Calgary as a franchise has a far better future? Right.
Islanders fans have been praying for validity behind this logic for years.

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02-18-2013, 07:28 PM
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Step 1: Sign one of Getzlaf, Semin, Clarkson, or Perry
Step 2: Sign one of Clowe, Weiss, or Filpulla
Step 3: Profit


Hate to break it to both Flames fans and haters alike, but the Flames are not going to have a mutli-year rebuild. If the Flames are clearly not a playoff team in 4-6 weeks, we'll see some upcomming UFAs moved, but large parts of the team will stay intact and the Flames will seek to acquire big names via free agency.

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02-18-2013, 07:36 PM
  #21
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Step 1: Sign one of Getzlaf, Semin, Clarkson, or Perry
One of these names doesn't belong with the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Step 2: Sign one of Clowe, Weiss, or Filpulla
Filppula likely doesn't see free agency. If Detroit has any problem signing Howard/Filppula/Brunner they'll use a buyout in a heartbeat.

Not to mention there's this thing called the salary cap, and unless the Flames plan on letting Iginla go, there's no way they can afford almost any one of those guys.

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02-18-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post

Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Bouw - decent player, "A" level prospect and a 1st
Sorry stopped reading here

Bouwmeester will never return any of that with his contract. Kipper is getting older to, unless he plays dominate again when he returns he wont get what he would have gotten 2-3 years ago.

Bouwmeester will return a 2-3 line tweener & a decent prospect )either picked in the 2nd/3rd round but playign well or a 1st round pick that hasnt proved themselves yet) and maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick based ont he quality of the previous 2 players

And trading away Kipper and Iggy will mean a scorched earth rebuild as those two were the only reason the Flames were sniffing the playoffs the past 2 years. But it would be the best for the future


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02-18-2013, 07:52 PM
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The path to success for Calgary has to go through the draft the next two, three years. Baertschi is a blue-chipper and Backstrom is just a little bit lower, but there's not a whole lot more there right now. The guys in the system for the Flames will be up in 2-3 years, but for now you need more picks. Trading guys with big long-term contracts (that means you J-Bo) for picks and prospects, trading guys as rentals who are on expiring contracts, you need to get back picks for this season, it's a deep draft. Take bad contracts in return if they are expiring in the next two seasons, so long as you get picks. Don't sign any veterans to long-term deals this offseason. Clear out the cap and load up on young players with talent, set your sights on 2014-15, if you keep trying to take the middle road here you will just keep shooting yourselves in the foot.

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02-18-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Sorry stopped reading here

Bouwmeester will never return any of that with his contract. Kipper is getting older to, unless he plays dominate again when he returns he wont get what he would have gotten 2-3 years ago.

Bouwmeester will return a 2-3 line tweener & a decent prospect )either picked in the 2nd/3rd round but playign well or a 1st round pick that hasnt proved themselves yet) and maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick based ont he quality of the previous 2 players
I have to agree. I can't see Bouwmeester fetching much. If he hits the market, teams might be able to assume that he'll be bought out if he doesn't get traded.

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02-18-2013, 07:56 PM
  #25
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If you keep trying to take the middle road here you will just keep shooting yourselves in the foot.
Calgary has nearly gone through an entire clip by now.

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