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Bylsma/coaching staff discussion thread II

View Poll Results: So can Bylsma still lead them to the promised land?
Sure why not, Bylsma’s system is fine. The team will win another cup with him 40 33.33%
Nah, Bylsma has a better chance of winning dancing with the stars than another cup 80 66.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-18-2013, 04:26 PM
  #126
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's basically the same **** around here...

Tangradi came up and people gushed over him, even though he looked as ordinary as BB has. It was the same with Caputi as well. After awhile, people grow impatient, then turn on guys. It isn't just Pens fans, as I tried to tell Leafs fans to be patient with Kadri and that Wilson was mishandling him. So many fans overrate prospects, turn on them way too early, etc.

BB is the next great hope around here and I really don't want to see the stupidity that happens when people realize it is going to take months or longer of consistent ice time before he even begins to look comfortable. If DB even lets that happen.

Tangradi is gone, but DB continues to bench rookies and cut their minutes for no reason. With all of the talent heading for the big club over the next several seasons, I'm worried about DB botching the development of these kids.

If I see him develop BB, Bort and Despres, then I will give him his dues and worry less. Until I see it, and he keeps benching/cutting their ice time, I am going to question him.
I personally haven't gushed over any of them, far from it. What I've said about Tangradi is nothing I haven't said about Caputi for the most part, and you can even throw in the great Janne Pesonen if you want. I'm completely neutral on Bennett. I think he looks better than Tangradi, but it's splitting hairs. All I personally said was I thought the guy looked like he had a chance to make it in the league. A chance, nothing more, and we'll know for sure most likely in 2-3 years. He won't have piqued then, but we'll know. I think they knew with Tangradi and the other guys previously mentioned.

With respect to the Dmen, give it some time. There's nothing wrong with Bortuzzo playing less minutes. He's played what, a half a dozen NHL games? Let's take it easy. Despres has flashes of what could be consistent greatness but right now, if I'm being frank, he also passes the puck directly to the other team in bunches some games. I don't have a problem with easing them in.

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02-18-2013, 04:28 PM
  #127
Mr Jiggyfly
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That's driving me nuttier than the rest of it.

Despres and Bort are full of warts, and it seems that their plentiful mistakes are glossed over for every time they make a good play.
Rookies make mistakes, but TK, Neal, Letang, Engo, Crosby, Malkin, etc are making many more costly mistakes than these two.

I've seen a vast number of people consistently point out Despres and Bort's mistakes, while correctly acknowledging they are doing more than enough to help the team and overcome their **** ups.

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02-18-2013, 04:41 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I personally haven't gushed over any of them, far from it. What I've said about Tangradi is nothing I haven't said about Caputi for the most part, and you can even throw in the great Janne Pesonen if you want. I'm completely neutral on Bennett. I think he looks better than Tangradi, but it's splitting hairs. All I personally said was I thought the guy looked like he had a chance to make it in the league. A chance, nothing more, and we'll know for sure most likely in 2-3 years. He won't have piqued then, but we'll know. I think they knew with Tangradi and the other guys previously mentioned.
I certainly hope BB is better than Tangradi given his pedigree. That doesn't mean it won't take him quite some time to adjust to this league.

I'm betting if that happens, people turn on him and spew their venom on him like they did with Tangradi.

When you see guys like Kraft, Beech, Koltsov get consistent minutes and fail, then you know it's time to turn the page. Until a young guy gets those consistent minutes and a heap of patience like the three above, you really don't know.

That is exactly why a guy like Kunitz was waiver wire fodder and given up on, but he has now had a career to be quite proud of.

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With respect to the Dmen, give it some time. There's nothing wrong with Bortuzzo playing less minutes. He's played what, a half a dozen NHL games? Let's take it easy. Despres has flashes of what could be consistent greatness but right now, if I'm being frank, he also passes the puck directly to the other team in bunches some games. I don't have a problem with easing them in.
In a typical season, maybe.

It's a shortened season and both Letang and Nisky have already been injured and you are giving them more minutes like this after coming back from their injuries? Giving the top four an extra workload with so many games crammed into the schedule, is asking for trouble. Not to mention the young guys need to be ready for the playoffs when the inevitable injuries hit.

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02-18-2013, 04:42 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
At least Boychuk got rolled minutes for all of his games. Giving a guy six random shifts over 2-3 games is not a legit shot.
Boychuk continued to get minutes because he looked like he could play on that line. When Tangradi was playing with Neal and Malkin he could not have looked more out of place.

This is a continuing theme with you Jiggy where you confuse the relationship between ice time and what a player has done on the ice. Tangradi hasn't gotten consistent looks because he has done little to nothing to show that he deserves it, or that the team would benefit in the long run if he were given more rope. Boychuk got more of an opportunity because from his very first shift he showed a level of play that far exceeded what we'd seen from Tangradi.

The best forwards in the league all play around 20 minutes a game. That doesn't mean that if you give Matt Cooke that kind of ice time he's going to play at that level. It just means that the guys who are given that kind of ice time earned it with their play. The same thing applies here, just on a smaller scale. Tangradi is not going to transform into a different player than what we've seen just on account of getting more ice time. If he's not doing anything of note in 8-10 minutes a game, it's foolish to assume that he'll be a solution for this team's winger problems if he's given a full time gig in the top 9.

The closest examples you can bring up to Tangradi are Kadri and Schenn who are light years more talented than he is and show it every shift they're on the ice. What I want to see are the mediocre prospects who were thrown into top 9 roles despite not producing or looking like competent NHLers that eventually developed into useful players. Maybe just then we'll have something comparable to Tangradi.

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Just because you got your hopes up Tangradi was the second coming of Stevens and had to be the "answer" right now, isn't my problem either boss.
I'd take Tangradi showing glimpses of being the second coming of Kevin Stevens circa 2002 for crying out loud.

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He did earn a spot in the lineup, but DB decided last season and this season to give his minutes to waiver wire fodder and washed up vets.
Looks like your definition of earned a spot is different than everybody else's.

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DB made up his mind about Tangradi a long time ago and didn't want him on the team. Those are impossible odds for any rookie to overcome. At least he is away from DB now and the ridiculous venom of fans who expected too much.
Also impossible odds for any rookie to overcome: not being an NHL talent.

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Now it is starting all over with BB... The high expectations... People seeing stuff that isn't there... I give it a month before people start turning on him if he doesn't adjust quickly enough for people's liking.
Thing is, nobody had anything resembling high expectations of Tangradi coming into this season. It was basically, 'hey, it'd be nice if he actually created a scoring chance, hit somebody, or got a threatening shot on goal.' Somehow, he still found a way to disappoint.


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Old
02-18-2013, 04:43 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Rookies make mistakes, but TK, Neal, Letang, Engo, Crosby, Malkin, etc are making many more costly mistakes than these two.

I've seen a vast number of people consistently point out Despres and Bort's mistakes, while correctly acknowledging they are doing more than enough to help the team and overcome their **** ups.
Many more? That's a stretch. Despres and Bortuzzo are also playing sheltered minutes and not making superstar contributions, Jig.

The only player on that list I can see legitimately being scratched and having his minutes tapered is TK. Engo's making no more mistakes than Despres/Bort, and plays an essential role on the team.


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02-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
When you see guys like Kraft, Beech, Koltsov get consistent minutes and fail, then you know it's time to turn the page. Until a young guy gets those consistent minutes and a heap of patience like the three above, you really don't know.
The Penguins teams that force-fed icetime to those young players could afford to because they were atrocious and had to throw **** at the wall to see what would stick.

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02-18-2013, 04:53 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I certainly hope BB is better than Tangradi given his pedigree. That doesn't mean it won't take him quite some time to adjust to this league.

I'm betting if that happens, people turn on him and spew their venom on him like they did with Tangradi.

When you see guys like Kraft, Beech, Koltsov get consistent minutes and fail, then you know it's time to turn the page. Until a young guy gets those consistent minutes and a heap of patience like the three above, you really don't know.

That is exactly why a guy like Kunitz was waiver wire fodder and given up on, but he has now had a career to be quite proud of. Matter of opinion.



In a typical season, maybe.

It's a shortened season and both Letang and Nisky have already been injured and you are giving them more minutes like this after coming back from their injuries? Giving the top four an extra workload with so many games crammed into the schedule, is asking for trouble. Not to mention the young guys need to be ready for the playoffs when the inevitable injuries hit.
I don't worry too much about what the collective thinks on here, and I'm sure you don't either so it's a non-issue. As for the Kunitz example, I'm sure there are hundreds of guys that just couldn't cut it for every Kunitz or St. Louis. Either show the coaches something, anything, or I have no sympathy for a guy. Jeffrey certainly has and it's why he's still on the team even though he can't even get in the lineup. I said it somewhere else and I truly don't mean to come off rude, but it's funny how the guys that actually prove they can do a thing or two end up staying on the team.

As for the D and the shortened season, you can flip it around and say it's a short season so we can afford to play the older guys more.

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02-18-2013, 04:54 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Why are they the only ones who cannot afford to make any mistakes, though? Why do all vets get a free pass with Bylsma? This isn't 2010. We're not the defending champs. Why does Disco still coach like we are?

I want more accountability across the board. Including guys who won the Cup here, including 10-year vets, including guys who embody this team's north-south game.

Everybody should be accountable, not just the most recent Pens.
Because that's how it works everywhere in practically every sport. The only exceptions are teams that are at the bottom and are desperately looking for someone to stand out, and there's a reason why they're at the bottom to begin with.

The only reason for being angry at Byslma is for not being a pioneer in that regard. Other than that, it's pretty much par for the course.

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02-18-2013, 05:58 PM
  #134
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Because that's how it works everywhere in practically every sport. The only exceptions are teams that are at the bottom and are desperately looking for someone to stand out, and there's a reason why they're at the bottom to begin with.

The only reason for being angry at Byslma is for not being a pioneer in that regard. Other than that, it's pretty much par for the course.
Come on, Mtl. You're better than that. It is NOT a novel concept for veterans to get scratched for indifferent or bad play. ESPECIALLY this season, we've seen some pretty big names get scratched. The list is quite lengthy.

Why can Tyler Myers get scratched twice but not Tyler Kennedy?

And I hope the argument isn't that we shouldn't break up a winning combination, or we're winning right now, etc. Because we've scratched guys like Tangradi, Jeffrey, Bortuzzo and Despres coming off wins this season.

There really is no excuse for this. Simply coach's preference.

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02-18-2013, 06:04 PM
  #135
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Boychuk continued to get minutes because he looked like he could play on that line. When Tangradi was playing with Neal and Malkin he could not have looked more out of place.

This is a continuing theme with you Jiggy where you confuse the relationship between ice time and what a player has done on the ice. Tangradi hasn't gotten consistent looks because he has done little to nothing to show that he deserves it, or that the team would benefit in the long run if he were given more rope. Boychuk got more of an opportunity because from his very first shift he showed a level of play that far exceeded what we'd seen from Tangradi.
I don't confuse anything. Boychuk was getting those minutes regardless of what he did, unless he hurt the team. It was said from the beginning by Shero he was going to get an extended look. Tangradi didn't go on the ice and constantly turn the puck over and blow assignments left and right like you are trying to insinuate. He still got benched after three shifts in his first game. Even after having his best game playing on the fourth line, he was permanently sent to the box. Same deal with Jeffrey, who was benched after playing better than anyone has on that line.

Boychuk has done nothing better in his stint than Tangradi has done his last three games. The only difference is Tangradi is now getting equal ice time to what Boychuk got.

The only consistent theme here is posters like you who think all prospects have the same development curve and they will all top out their potential or they "suck". There is no in between or patience involved.

Either fulfill the destiny idiot fans create in their minds for you, or you are a bust. No wonder I roll my eyes at so many posts on here.

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The best forwards in the league all play around 20 minutes a game. That doesn't mean that if you give Matt Cooke that kind of ice time he's going to play at that level. It just means that the guys who are given that kind of ice time earned it with their play. The same thing applies here, just on a smaller scale. Tangradi is not going to transform into a different player than what we've seen just on account of getting more ice time. If he's not doing anything of note in 8-10 minutes a game, it's foolish to assume that he'll be a solution for this team's winger problems if he's given a full time gig in the top 9.
This is pretty weak. So any talented prospect will thrive getting sporadic shifts, sat for long stretches in a game, benched for a week or two, put back in the lineup for a game or two with more sporadic shifts, rinse and repeat?

Ya... I disagree.

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The closest examples you can bring up to Tangradi are Kadri and Schenn who are light years more talented than he is and show it every shift they're on the ice. What I want to see are the mediocre prospects who were thrown into top 9 roles despite not producing or looking like competent NHLers that eventually developed into useful players. Maybe just then we'll have something comparable to Tangradi.
I've listed a litany of guys who took a number of years to develop, many who hit the waiver wires before finding their game and a team willing to be patient with them. I'm not doing it again.

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Looks like your definition of earned a spot is different than everybody else's.

Also impossible odds for any rookie to overcome: not being an NHL talent.
He sure looks like a guy who can cut it playing for the Jets. Of course what did people say... He wouldn't play that well in his life ever again like Friday, then he went out and did it again yesterday.

It's crazy how getting real NHL minutes makes a guy look like a real NHL player.

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Thing is, nobody had anything resembling high expectations of Tangradi coming into this season. It was basically, 'hey, it'd be nice if he actually created a scoring chance, hit somebody, or got a threatening shot on goal.' Somehow, he still found a way to disappoint.
The expectations and lack of patience were already in place.

Once again people were warned repeatedly he may only be a third liner, but it's funny how individuals read what they want and skip the rest.

I have zero respect for people who cut on him and root against a kid trying to achieve his dream. He isn't the one who created the idiotic expectations. The only thing he did wrong was not magically become the top six solution off the bat that people desperately wanted.

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02-18-2013, 06:17 PM
  #136
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I don't worry too much about what the collective thinks on here, and I'm sure you don't either so it's a non-issue. As for the Kunitz example, I'm sure there are hundreds of guys that just couldn't cut it for every Kunitz or St. Louis. Either show the coaches something, anything, or I have no sympathy for a guy. Jeffrey certainly has and it's why he's still on the team even though he can't even get in the lineup. I said it somewhere else and I truly don't mean to come off rude, but it's funny how the guys that actually prove they can do a thing or two end up staying on the team.
Every org blows it when evaluating prospects. From Moulson, Letestu, Strait etc.

Just because Shero and DB give up on a guy, it doesn't mean he can't play in this league. But ya, it doesn't mean he can.

However, I've never seen so much ridiculous and ****ed up garbage said about a prospect like Tangradi. I can accept people saying he didn't show enough, etc. However, the cowardly **** people spew about him is so lame and I can't respect those people. You have some pretty sad and ill minds out there.

I'm just hoping it doesn't happen to BB, because he truly is the last hope. If he doesn't catch on quick, the great unwashed will turn on him to and I really don't feel like having a retro Groundhogs Day anytime soon.

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As for the D and the shortened season, you can flip it around and say it's a short season so we can afford to play the older guys more.
If two of the top four weren't just coming back from injuries and it wasn't a condensed schedule, maybe.

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02-18-2013, 07:15 PM
  #137
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Jiggy, you've had a pro Tangradi agenda ever since we acquired him to be the top 6 solution the organization had been looking for. He's had a couple decent games on a new team playing on pure adrenaline. So did Boychuk. We'll see if he can sustain that level of play and not go into a disappearing act for the rest of his time with the Jets.

As I've said countless times, and contrary to your opinion that everybody believes he needs to come up and dominate the league to not be a bust, all we wanted from Tangradi was to make a few plays or win a battle or two. Perhaps not running into his own teammates on more than one occasion. Any of these things would have sufficed. It is apparently inconcievable to you that the reason Tangradi didn't get more of an opportunity was because his play was poor, as opposed to DB having some vendetta against rookies. I don't know if it's because you actually deluded yourself into thinking Tangradi played well enough for DB to pencil him into the top 9 every night or if you think that the team should just hand him a spot in the lineup even if he plays like garbage and doesn't show any promise.

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02-18-2013, 07:51 PM
  #138
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Come on, Mtl. You're better than that. It is NOT a novel concept for veterans to get scratched for indifferent or bad play. ESPECIALLY this season, we've seen some pretty big names get scratched. The list is quite lengthy.

Why can Tyler Myers get scratched twice but not Tyler Kennedy?

And I hope the argument isn't that we shouldn't break up a winning combination, or we're winning right now, etc. Because we've scratched guys like Tangradi, Jeffrey, Bortuzzo and Despres coming off wins this season.

There really is no excuse for this. Simply coach's preference.
Because Myers A) Is hardly a veteran and B) Has been horrible for two seasons now. You can ask the Buffalo fan who started a thread asking if Myers and Leopold make the worst defensive pairing in the League. I can tell you right now he hardly blamed Leopold. Sitting a supposed top pairing defenseman for being a liability and allowing other teams to score goals is a far cry from benching a third line checker who's job isn't really technically to score goals to begin with.

And as Brooks has mentioned before, he's not a Kennedy fan, but the guy has been a useful player for a while now, and a productive if not streaky player for a few years. He's earned the right to play out of his funk and if he doesn't, will probably be the next one who sits.

Regardless, that's not what most are arguing about right now. Most are arguing about sitting established NHL players who've earned their stripes by playing defined roles, and putting the likes of Eric Tangradi in their place.

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02-18-2013, 08:31 PM
  #139
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Every org blows it when evaluating prospects. From Moulson, Letestu, Strait etc.

Just because Shero and DB give up on a guy, it doesn't mean he can't play in this league. But ya, it doesn't mean he can.

However, I've never seen so much ridiculous and ****ed up garbage said about a prospect like Tangradi. I can accept people saying he didn't show enough, etc. However, the cowardly **** people spew about him is so lame and I can't respect those people. You have some pretty sad and ill minds out there.

I'm just hoping it doesn't happen to BB, because he truly is the last hope. If he doesn't catch on quick, the great unwashed will turn on him to and I really don't feel like having a retro Groundhogs Day anytime soon.



If two of the top four weren't just coming back from injuries and it wasn't a condensed schedule, maybe.
Personally, I'd like to know what type of options Despres and Bortuzzo might be in April. Maybe they won't be much in that regard. Thing is, now is the time to find out, to let them work through the kinks and to see where they are as they get more game experience.

I know, for example, what the Pens have in Engo for the playoffs. Might Bortuzzo be a better option. Now? No, he isn't. In two months? At this pace, we'll never know.

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02-18-2013, 08:47 PM
  #140
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Jiggy, you've had a pro Tangradi agenda ever since we acquired him to be the top 6 solution the organization had been looking for.
I've had a pro Vitale agenda.

I've had a pro Johnson agenda.

I've had a pro Letestu agenda.

I've had a pro Strait agenda.

I've had a pro Bortuzzo agenda.

I've had a pro Despres agenda.

I've had a pro Morrow agenda.

It's called seeing a prospect and believing in him. I don't flip flop and give up on guys until I see them fail.

If people weren't so obsessed over Tangradi, I wouldn't have had to spend so much time defending him and explaining how normal prospects develop.

I know it makes you a total Internet bad ass to turn on a prospect and say he sucks because he didn't live up to your expectations, but I don't roll like that.

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He's had a couple decent games on a new team playing on pure adrenaline. So did Boychuk. We'll see if he can sustain that level of play and not go into a disappearing act for the rest of his time with the Jets.
He's not a Pen anymore and according to you he sucks, so why would it matter what he does?

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As I've said countless times, and contrary to your opinion that everybody believes he needs to come up and dominate the league to not be a bust, all we wanted from Tangradi was to make a few plays or win a battle or two.
It's funny since Tangradi didn't develop fast enough for people that now he never hit anyone, made any plays and was such a liability on the ice, but now BB is up and flubs passes and shots, but people see his potential to be "the solution" dun dun dun.

It's the same pattern repeating itself and I'm 100% sure I'll probably be living Groundhogs day with BB if he doesn't catch on quickly enough.

Both BB and Tangradi are currently getting proper ice time and doing what they should be doing: keeping it simple, playing well in their own zone and not doing anything stupid. People expecting more need a reality check.

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Perhaps not running into his own teammates on more than one occasion. Any of these things would have sufficed. It is apparently inconcievable to you that the reason Tangradi didn't get more of an opportunity was because his play was poor, as opposed to DB having some vendetta against rookies. I don't know if it's because you actually deluded yourself into thinking Tangradi played well enough for DB to pencil him into the top 9 every night or if you think that the team should just hand him a spot in the lineup even if he plays like garbage and doesn't show any promise.
I said over and over he played well enough to earn fourth line minutes. Since you have been following my pro Tangradi agenda you should know that, but moving the goal posts makes your argument look better, right?

You are the one who keeps bringing up top 6-9 minutes when I have said for over a year now he needed consistent FOURTH line minutes to adjust to the speed of the game and gain some confidence.

He surely earned those minutes, despite whatever ******** you want to throw out. Go back and read through the threads last year and you'll find even the most ardent Tangradi haters admitting it was weird he wasn't getting regular fourth line minutes with the way he played (the few times he was given a chance).


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02-18-2013, 08:58 PM
  #141
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I've had a pro Vitale agenda.

I've had a pro Johnson agenda.

I've had a pro Letestu agenda.

I've had a pro Strait agenda.

I've had a pro Bortuzzo agenda.

I've had a pro Despres agenda.

I've had a pro Morrow agenda.


It's called seeing a prospect and believing in him. I don't flip flop and give up on guys until I see them fail.

If people weren't so obsessed over Tangradi, I wouldn't have had to spend so much time defending him and explaining how normal prospects develop.

I know it makes you a total Internet bad ass to turn on a prospect and say he sucks because he didn't live up to your expectations, but I don't roll like that.



He's not a Pen anymore and according to you he sucks, so why would it matter what he does?



It's funny since Tangradi didn't develop fast enough for people that now he never hit anyone, made any plays and was such a liability on the ice, but now BB is up and flubs passes and shots, but people see his potential to be "the solution" dun dun dun.

It's the same pattern repeating itself and I'm 100% sure I'll probably be living Groundhogs day with BB if he doesn't catch on quickly enough.

Both BB and Tangradi are currently getting proper ice time and doing what they should be doing: keeping it simple, playing well in their own zone and not doing anything stupid. People expecting more need a reality check.



I said over and over he played well enough to earn fourth line minutes. Since you have been following my pro Tangradi agenda you should know that, but moving the goal posts makes your argument look better, right?

You are the one who keeps bringing up top 6-9 minutes when I have said for over a year now he needed consistent FOURTH line minutes to adjust to the speed of the game and gain some confidence.

He surely earned those minutes, despite whatever ******** you want to throw out. Go back and read through the threads last year and you'll find even the most ardent Tangradi haters admitting it was weird he wasn't getting regular fourth line minutes with the way he played (the few times he was given a chance).
Seems like your agendas might have to do with finding out if a younger player MIGHT bring more to the table when the playoffs come than a vet of limited skill. Seems like you're saying, where you know what you have in a comparable vet, see if the young player with higher upside can show it and grow during the regular season for a potential playoff payoff. Seems like you're suggesting, for example, that a spark plug like Vitale reminds in ways of a spark plug like Talbot, except the 'getting a chance to be more than an exclusive fourth liner' part. If I follow correctly, then it's an interesting thought. Wishful thinking that it could play out that way in terms of how young Penguins players are used during the regular season, but still interesting.

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02-18-2013, 09:43 PM
  #142
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I know it makes you a total Internet bad ass to turn on a prospect and say he sucks because he didn't live up to your expectations, but I don't roll like that.
Yes, my intention was quite clearly to show how badass I am for saying that Tangradi sucked as a Penguin. You nailed it Jiggy, once again. Never mind that I was never high on Tangradi to begin with, and had been skeptical that he'd ever amount to anything since last year.
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He's not a Pen anymore and according to you he sucks, so why would it matter what he does?
For a number of reasons, really. Mostly because I'd like to see if your unwavering faith in him was in good or bad judgment.
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It's funny since Tangradi didn't develop fast enough for people that now he never hit anyone, made any plays and was such a liability on the ice, but now BB is up and flubs passes and shots, but people see his potential to be "the solution" dun dun dun.
BB showed flashes in his first game with a couple of nice setups. He also showed good positioning and an ability to work along the boards that some of us thought he'd struggle with. It was refreshing to see. Sure, some people are going to reach a little bit with their opinions on his play because they want him to be the top 6 solution for the future, but that was the case with Tangradi as well and most were able to deduce that he wasn't actually anything special.

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I said over and over he played well enough to earn fourth line minutes. Since you have been following my pro Tangradi agenda you should know that, but moving the goal posts makes your argument look better, right?
It's hard to keep up with the excuses you've made for why Tangradi didn't succeed here. You said earlier something along the lines of "see what he can do with real NHL minutes", referencing him looking good on Winnipeg's third line.

Thing is, if he were given regular 4th line minutes and continued to look out of place we'd just hear about how he needs an extended look on the first three lines because, after all, who could look good playing alongside Craig Adams? I guarantee that's what we'd hear.

Quote:
You are the one who keeps bringing up top 6-9 minutes when I have said for over a year now he needed consistent FOURTH line minutes to adjust to the speed of the game and gain some confidence.
45 games in Jig and we're still using the 'he needs to adjust to the speed of the game!' argument?

Quote:
He surely earned those minutes, despite whatever ******** you want to throw out. Go back and read through the threads last year and you'll find even the most ardent Tangradi haters admitting it was weird he wasn't getting regular fourth line minutes with the way he played (the few times he was given a chance).
I love when you reference things people allegedly believed and then challenge me to prove otherwise. Remember when you talked about how Schenn was thought of a bust when he was struggling early on in Philly and I found all of the threads on the Flyers forum which painted a completely different picture?

Tangradi did nothing whatsoever to earn a fourth line spot over a guy like Jeffrey or Vitale. People just don't like Craig Adams and can't get over the idea that Tangradi isn't an NHLer and figure what the heck, why not put him on the 4th line? Spare me the notion that Tangradi did anything to earn that spot. If his name wasn't Tangradi and he was a former 7th round pick he'd have already been waived long ago and never thought about again.

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02-18-2013, 11:16 PM
  #143
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I don't confuse anything. Boychuk was getting those minutes regardless of what he did, unless he hurt the team. It was said from the beginning by Shero he was going to get an extended look. Tangradi didn't go on the ice and constantly turn the puck over and blow assignments left and right like you are trying to insinuate. He still got benched after three shifts in his first game. Even after having his best game playing on the fourth line, he was permanently sent to the box. Same deal with Jeffrey, who was benched after playing better than anyone has on that line.

Boychuk has done nothing better in his stint than Tangradi has done his last three games. The only difference is Tangradi is now getting equal ice time to what Boychuk got.

The only consistent theme here is posters like you who think all prospects have the same development curve and they will all top out their potential or they "suck". There is no in between or patience involved.

Either fulfill the destiny idiot fans create in their minds for you, or you are a bust. No wonder I roll my eyes at so many posts on here.



This is pretty weak. So any talented prospect will thrive getting sporadic shifts, sat for long stretches in a game, benched for a week or two, put back in the lineup for a game or two with more sporadic shifts, rinse and repeat?

Ya... I disagree.



I've listed a litany of guys who took a number of years to develop, many who hit the waiver wires before finding their game and a team willing to be patient with them. I'm not doing it again.



He sure looks like a guy who can cut it playing for the Jets. Of course what did people say... He wouldn't play that well in his life ever again like Friday, then he went out and did it again yesterday.

It's crazy how getting real NHL minutes makes a guy look like a real NHL player.



The expectations and lack of patience were already in place.

Once again people were warned repeatedly he may only be a third liner, but it's funny how individuals read what they want and skip the rest.

I have zero respect for people who cut on him and root against a kid trying to achieve his dream. He isn't the one who created the idiotic expectations. The only thing he did wrong was not magically become the top six solution off the bat that people desperately wanted.
One thing that people need to get used to. Rookies and even second year players **** up. A lot. Even ones that eventually become good. Remember Letang and especially Goligoski their first couple of years? I honestly thought that Goligoski thought his job was to cough the puck up to give an odd man break the other way.

It is one problem I see with Shero drafting all these defensemen. They are useless even as trade chips unless you have the spot to go through the growing pains and to develope them.

Boychuck has shown that he has the raw talent. And you all know my thoughts on the standings meaning next to nothing as long as you make the playoffs. Play the hell out of the kids, develope them and see if you have something. In this case I agree totally with the concept of play Boychuck all the rest of the year if need be to see if he can take that next step. What do we have to lose? A couple of spots of playoff seeding? Who cares?

As for the whole Tangradi thing? Boychuk being cut loose seemed to have sealed his fate. Better pedigree and showed a lot more. You can make mistakes when young, but you need to at least show something. Letang and Goligoski did dispite numerous mistakes. Boychuck just flashed a lot more than Tangradi did.

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02-18-2013, 11:31 PM
  #144
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Jiggy, I watched every minute of that Boston game last night, and I'm still not sure what you saw.

It was essentially the same thing we saw here, only for a longer period of time because he played more minutes.

He centered a pass from behind the net in the first period while the goalie was badly out of position, he had a nice chip pass to a teammate to get out of the defensive zone, and he dumped the puck in a few times after "leading" a rush, and made a few simple passes back to the point along the boards.

And he also had a couple of weak ass shots at the net while skating down the wing because he didn't have the foot speed to cut in and take the puck to the net. I also saw him get mop up duty on their first PP with about 15 seconds left in it, but that looked more to be a situation where he was put out on the ice because his line was next.

If he turns out to be a decent third line player, which right now looks to me to be his ceiling, I"m not going to lose any sleep over it.

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02-19-2013, 12:51 AM
  #145
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Yes, my intention was quite clearly to show how badass I am for saying that Tangradi sucked as a Penguin. You nailed it Jiggy, once again. Never mind that I was never high on Tangradi to begin with, and had been skeptical that he'd ever amount to anything since last year.
I never asked if you were high on him or not. I frankly don't care. I also am not concerned what your intentions were either.

My point remains I have little respect for people who say stupid **** like that.

Quote:
For a number of reasons, really. Mostly because I'd like to see if your unwavering faith in him was in good or bad judgment.
Why would you care what I think? I watch tons of prospects like I have since I was a kid and enjoy it. I know others who can't see them like to hear how these guys are doing, so I offer my opinions. If I'm wrong, who cares? I thought Kraft and Lupy were going to be good NHLers and I was one of the first people to call attention to Vitale, Letestu and Johnson.

When you are right no one remembers, when you are wrong people love to attack your opinions. It's not something I lose any sleep over because you have to be a clown to take this place seriously.

Quote:
BB showed flashes in his first game with a couple of nice setups. He also showed good positioning and an ability to work along the boards that some of us thought he'd struggle with. It was refreshing to see. Sure, some people are going to reach a little bit with their opinions on his play because they want him to be the top 6 solution for the future, but that was the case with Tangradi as well and most were able to deduce that he wasn't actually anything special.
BB has been nondescript and not made any big mistakes. If he is still struggling for another month, people will get down on him. Not too much, but the grumbling will start. The longer he struggles, the worse it will get.

Quote:
It's hard to keep up with the excuses you've made for why Tangradi didn't succeed here. You said earlier something along the lines of "see what he can do with real NHL minutes", referencing him looking good on Winnipeg's third line.
So this is basically you saying you were talking out of your ass and making **** up? Real NHL minutes can be had on any line boss. It isn't hard to figure out.

Quote:
Thing is, if he were given regular 4th line minutes and continued to look out of place we'd just hear about how he needs an extended look on the first three lines because, after all, who could look good playing alongside Craig Adams? I guarantee that's what we'd hear.
Tons of NHLers have worked their way up from fourth line duty. Tangradi isn't as uncapable as you would have people believe.

I'm surprised he knows how to hold his stick the right way according to your "description" of his play.

Quote:
45 games in Jig and we're still using the 'he needs to adjust to the speed of the game!' argument?
Once again you still can't grasp the difference between playing legit NHL minutes and having seven shifts a game. As I said, reference MB's breakdown and show me more than five whole games in a row where Tangradi had legit ice time.

Quote:
I love when you reference things people allegedly believed and then challenge me to prove otherwise. Remember when you talked about how Schenn was thought of a bust when he was struggling early on in Philly and I found all of the threads on the Flyers forum which painted a completely different picture?
It literally took five seconds to find:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1095651

Oh look, people even mentioning how Kadri was called a bust to in the thread. Isn't it amazing how well the search feature works when you are actually trying to find something?

This thread was created by a Flyers fan because a number of people were ragging on Schenn in the prospects and rumors forums for months. I was arguing with the morons and rolled my eyes when this thread popped up because I knew it was coming. The thread was also created BEFORE he hit that miserable 20 game streak with only a couple of points, all while getting 14-16 mins a night.

People were ragging on him even more during that stretch.

Quote:
Tangradi did nothing whatsoever to earn a fourth line spot over a guy like Jeffrey or Vitale. People just don't like Craig Adams and can't get over the idea that Tangradi isn't an NHLer and figure what the heck, why not put him on the 4th line? Spare me the notion that Tangradi did anything to earn that spot. If his name wasn't Tangradi and he was a former 7th round pick he'd have already been waived long ago and never thought about again.
Jeffrey was coming off a knee injury last season and played like ****. Try to keep your BS straight bro because you aren't doing a very good job of it tonight.... Making up things I said, not being able to "find" a thread that took me a few seconds to dig up, BSing about Jeffrey.

All of this over a guy you shouldn't even care about anymore.


Last edited by Mr Jiggyfly: 02-19-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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Old
02-19-2013, 02:16 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Because Myers A) Is hardly a veteran and B) Has been horrible for two seasons now. You can ask the Buffalo fan who started a thread asking if Myers and Leopold make the worst defensive pairing in the League. I can tell you right now he hardly blamed Leopold. Sitting a supposed top pairing defenseman for being a liability and allowing other teams to score goals is a far cry from benching a third line checker who's job isn't really technically to score goals to begin with.

And as Brooks has mentioned before, he's not a Kennedy fan, but the guy has been a useful player for a while now, and a productive if not streaky player for a few years. He's earned the right to play out of his funk and if he doesn't, will probably be the next one who sits.

Regardless, that's not what most are arguing about right now. Most are arguing about sitting established NHL players who've earned their stripes by playing defined roles, and putting the likes of Eric Tangradi in their place.
I'm not sure that's what the argument is. And if you don't like the Tyler Myers example, Ryan Whitney and Ryan Smyth are better ones I suppose. Pierre-Marc Bouchard comes to mind, as well.

You say if Kennedy continues to struggle, he'll get benched. That's the rub. I say no way. He's been dog meat all season long. Why would it be any different anytime soon. We have had two extra forwards all season, and yet Kennedy continues to play.

As for defined roles, would it destroy our PK if Adams sat on back-to-back nights? If Glass sat out a game here and there? Vitale and Jeffrey are more than capable of PKing, while Malkin is still underutilized in that area. Nothing wrong with Geno killing penalties.

PK specialists are so overrated on this board it's frightening.


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02-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I'm not sure that's what the argument is. And if you don't like the Tyler Myers example, Ryan Whitney and Ryan Smyth are better ones I suppose. Pierre-Marc Bouchard comes to mind, as well.

You say if Kennedy continues to struggle, he'll get benched. That's the rub. I say no way. He's big dog meat all season long. Why would it be any different anytime soon. We have had two extra forwards all season, and yet Kennedy continues to play.

As for defined roles, would it destroy our PK if Adams sat on back-to-back nights? If Glass sat out a game here and there? Vitale and Jeffrey are more than capable of PKing, while Malkin is still underutilized in that area. Nothing wrong with Geno killing penalties.

PK specialists are so overrated on this board it's frightening.
Don't use Edmonton of all places as an example. If we had about 6 forwards who were picked in the top 5, there would be more than a couple of guys sitting, or not even on the team at all.

And it's not about "PK SPECIALISTS" it's about 4th liners who are better suited for that role than Jeffrey is. Don't 90% of the complaints stem from these guys not getting a fair chance on the top two lines, and now we want them playing on the 4th line?

Again, this is yet another reach where we're dying for our prospects to pan out even though there's nothing that tells you they'll be anything more than middling NHL players.


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02-19-2013, 03:13 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's basically the same **** around here...

Tangradi came up and people gushed over him, even though he looked as ordinary as BB has. It was the same with Caputi as well. After awhile, people grow impatient, then turn on guys. It isn't just Pens fans, as I tried to tell Leafs fans to be patient with Kadri and that Wilson was mishandling him. So many fans overrate prospects, turn on them way too early, etc.

BB is the next great hope around here and I really don't want to see the stupidity that happens when people realize it is going to take months or longer of consistent ice time before he even begins to look comfortable. If DB even lets that happen.

Tangradi is gone, but DB continues to bench rookies and cut their minutes for no reason. With all of the talent heading for the big club over the next several seasons, I'm worried about DB botching the development of these kids.

If I see him develop BB, Bort and Despres, then I will give him his dues and worry less. Until I see it, and he keeps benching/cutting their ice time, I am going to question him.
Turn on them? Not at all.

I think your interpretation of reality is a bit off. A lot of fans definitely WANTED to see Tangradi/Caputi succeed, but lets face it -- not all prospects pan out.

While Tangradi had size, pedigree, and a proven scoring knack.. he was an awful player at the NHL level. The guy did literally nothing and it was impossible to justify his spot in the lineup on a nightly basis.

Fans are smart enough to recognize when a player is a "dime a dozen" like Tangradi -- I call that smart analysis, not some sort of treason like you describe it. We watch enough hockey to recognize when a prospect is truly extraordinary or whether they're just an overhyped disappointment.

Personally, I don't think fans sharing their honest assessments of prospects classifies as "turning on them".

I really can't believe people are still ******** over trading Tangradi. Look - the guy (1) wasn't producing (2) wasn't developing (3) wasn't better than any other player on this roster and (4) looked completely lost throughout his whole tensure.

When you have a player with those characteristics, it makes sense to trade them to another team. It's a normal scenario that regularly plays out in the NHL and I don't understand why people can't seem to grasp this. Not all prospects can live up to the hype and expectations that we bestow on them. This won't be the first time and it won't be the last.

In Tangradi's case, he didn't even come *close* to expectations.

It happens. That's why they say the draft is a crapshoot.


Last edited by cassius: 02-19-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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Old
02-19-2013, 03:31 PM
  #149
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Don't use Edmonton of all places as an example. If we had about 6 forwards who were picked in the top 5, there would be more than a couple of guys sitting, or not even on the team at all.

And it's not about "PK SPECIALISTS" it's about 4th liners who are better suited for that role than Jeffrey is. Don't 90% of the complaints stem from these guys not getting a fair chance on the top two lines, and now we want them playing on the 4th line?

Again, this is yet another reach where we're dying for our prospects to pan out even though there's nothing that tells you they'll be anything more than middling NHL players.
I just want them to play, that's all. Use your roster to motivate/rest your veterans while giving your unestablished players some ice time.

We lose players in this organization even before we know what the hell they even are as players. Why? Because all it says on their resume is "healthy scratch" or "assigned to Wilkes-Barre/Scranton".

And if Myers isn't a good example, and Edmonton isn't a good example, then I guess you just don't want any examples of veteran players being healthy scratches this season. That means I can't use Alex Goligoski, either. Oh I forgot, not exactly a veteran. My bad.


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02-19-2013, 04:46 PM
  #150
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I never asked if you were high on him or not. I frankly don't care. I also am not concerned what your intentions were either.
The point is that I've been consistent with my opinions on Tangradi. This wasn't a reversal in my position by any stretch.
Quote:
Why would you care what I think? I watch tons of prospects like I have since I was a kid and enjoy it. I know others who can't see them like to hear how these guys are doing, so I offer my opinions. If I'm wrong, who cares? I thought Kraft and Lupy were going to be good NHLers and I was one of the first people to call attention to Vitale, Letestu and Johnson.

When you are right no one remembers, when you are wrong people love to attack your opinions. It's not something I lose any sleep over because you have to be a clown to take this place seriously.
To be fair, I'm following Tangradi's journey also because I'd like to see if I'm right, too. If you feel strongly that a player isn't an NHL player and he pans out to be a legitimate top 9 guy, it might cause you to rethink your position on certain prospects. And if Tangradi turns out to be something, then perhaps you were right about a prospect just needing consistent minutes to flourish. I'm just skeptical based on what I've seen that Tangradi has what it takes to be even an average third liner in this league, and if he's anything less, then it wouldn't have been worth the effort to develop him anyways.

Quote:
BB has been nondescript and not made any big mistakes. If he is still struggling for another month, people will get down on him. Not too much, but the grumbling will start. The longer he struggles, the worse it will get.
As long as he continues to show glimpses of what he's capable of people will continue to believe in him, including the coaches. Flubbing shots and mishandling the puck are signs of a prospect playing with nerves. It's nothing to be worried about from your skilled first round winger two games in.

Quote:
So this is basically you saying you were talking out of your ass and making **** up? Real NHL minutes can be had on any line boss. It isn't hard to figure out.
Playing on Winnipeg's third line with third line players doesn't exactly corroborate your theory that he'd break out on our fourth line given he'd already played there for an extended period and showed nothing. He's also only played two games and is hardly out of the woods yet. His best games with us were immediately after his call up. This is him looking to make another good first impression. Talk to me at season's end about how Tangradi developed into something useful instead of proclaiming him to have panned out for the Peg two scoreless games into his stay.

Quote:
Tons of NHLers have worked their way up from fourth line duty. Tangradi isn't as uncapable as you would have people believe.

I'm surprised he knows how to hold his stick the right way according to your "description" of his play.
I'm just envisioning what the Tangradi excuse machine might come up with next. You're telling me that if Tangradi had gotten consistent fourth line minutes with guys like Craig Adams and Tanner Glass you'd be willing to write him off as a bust if he didn't put it together? Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that.

Quote:
Once again you still can't grasp the difference between playing legit NHL minutes and having seven shifts a game. As I said, reference MB's breakdown and show me more than five whole games in a row where Tangradi had legit ice time.
Show me five whole games where Tangradi didn't look like a lost puppy out on the ice and you'll have a point. Ice time is handed out based on two things: what have you done for me and what have you done for me lately? He has done nothing to deserve a spot in the lineup, let alone get consistent minutes on a contending team.

Quote:
It literally took five seconds to find:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1095651

Oh look, people even mentioning how Kadri was called a bust to in the thread. Isn't it amazing how well the search feature works when you are actually trying to find something?
As I had predicted before, if you found such a thread it would be full of people calling OP a moron with Flyer fans chiming in that Schenn has actually looked good despite his slump. The entire point was that the vast majority of Flyer fans and anybody who knew anything about the game did not think Schenn was a bust. You're drawing a false parallel between people talking about Tangradi as a bust and Schenn when there are like, 3 people on HF who said that about Schenn. I hestitate to even consider it a minority opinion because that would at least entail getting 5-10% of people to support it.

Find me even a handful of posts where people are talking about Schenn like he doesn't have what it takes to play in the NHL like we see daily from Tangradi. I'm betting you come up empty handed.
Quote:
This thread was created by a Flyers fan because a number of people were ragging on Schenn in the prospects and rumors forums for months. I was arguing with the morons and rolled my eyes when this thread popped up because I knew it was coming. The thread was also created BEFORE he hit that miserable 20 game streak with only a couple of points, all while getting 14-16 mins a night.

People were ragging on him even more during that stretch.
Dude, stop it. I already showed you both threads in the Flyers forum which covered both time periods you're talking about and there is a ton of positivity towards Schenn's play. You're trying to create a universe where a bunch of people thought Schenn was a bust that doesn't exist and it's extremely lame.

Quote:
Jeffrey was coming off a knee injury last season and played like ****. Try to keep your BS straight bro because you aren't doing a very good job of it tonight.... Making up things I said, not being able to "find" a thread that took me a few seconds to dig up, BSing about Jeffrey.
I'm talking about this year, obviously. What has he done to get a spot over Jeffrey? Vitale? Hell, Craig Adams?

Quote:
All of this over a guy you shouldn't even care about anymore.
It's mostly just entertaining to go back and forth with you. It's like you take the attacks on Tangradi's play and ability level personally.

Last thing, what exactly do you consider legit ice time for a 4th liner? Tangradi's even strength ice time during his time as a Penguin is consistent with guys like Craig Adams and Arron Asham. He's not going to hit 12 minutes unless he plays on special teams or is double shifted throughout the game, at which point you're well past a typical fourth line role. Do elaborate on the kind of ice time Tangradi should have recieved on our fourth line that he didn't already.

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