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Old
02-18-2013, 06:47 PM
  #51
eXile59
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Both Cooke & Dupuis are getting up there in age, nearing the end of their deals, & we got no one to replace them. Maybe Vitale but I don't know if he can kill penalties or put 35+ points a season. I hope we find a way to replace them because they are important to winning games.

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02-18-2013, 07:00 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HuskerTornado View Post
He'll take a discount to stay in Pittsburgh again. He could have gotten much more on the open market last time around, but signed for just $100K more than his previous contract (1.4M to 1.5M). Around $2.25M is my guess for 2-3 years.
Prior to him signing that deal, he hadn't done anything for us. His last two seasons were 18g/20a and 17g/20a. There was little reason to think he'd do any differently on his new deal. The last 2 years proved differently, and he's due for a raise. And he could almost certainly get 28-3.3m on the market - potentially as much as 3.5m+ if he's lucky.

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02-18-2013, 07:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
If we give him a raise, we'd be making a mistake. At 34, do we really expect him to get better from hereon in?

I don't like paying UFA dollars for past performance, and that's pretty much what we'd be doing if we gave Dupuis a raise (and in his case, past performance would be last season and this season).

We need to be VERY careful here. The last thing I want management to be thinking is that Pascal Dupuis is the scoring winger we've been looking for all along. That would be really terrible thinking.
Dupuis is an alright 3rd wheel who can play defensively. And both deserves and will get a raise. The question is how much. I wouldn't mind him at 2-2.3m over 3-4 years (maybe 2.5m max - but I'd be uncomfortable with that). The less dollars he signs for, the more comfortable I'd be signing him to a longer term. Worse case is Dupuis slides down to the 3rd line and is still an effective player for us. This isn't like Sullivan who's only effective when playing in the top 6.

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02-18-2013, 08:06 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
3 Million a year!!!

We have the leverage here. He doesn't score 20 on any other team & he knows that. I even think he hinted at how good he has it on 24/7
The thing is, it might not be about what Dupuis himself thinks he's worth. Realistically speaking there are a few teams in this league that are WILLING to offer him that much, and why wouldn't they? Experienced, two-way player with a cup ring and is playing the best hockey of his career over the course of the last 2 seasons. Combine that with the fact that he's a consumate professional and a well respected guy and it's hard to think that some teams wouldn't be willing to dig a bit deeper into their pockets to sign him for 2-3 years.

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02-18-2013, 08:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Dupuis is an alright 3rd wheel who can play defensively. And both deserves and will get a raise. The question is how much. I wouldn't mind him at 2-2.3m over 3-4 years (maybe 2.5m max - but I'd be uncomfortable with that). The less dollars he signs for, the more comfortable I'd be signing him to a longer term. Worse case is Dupuis slides down to the 3rd line and is still an effective player for us. This isn't like Sullivan who's only effective when playing in the top 6.
I wouldn't offer more than 2.5 million per season for him either. I love having him on our team, and even in the days where people were constantly throwing him under the bus I was defending him tooth and nail. That being said however, considering the fact that we have to offer guys like Geno, Letang, and Kuni new deals soon as well, you need to be a little cautious with how much money you're willing to drop on the older vets.

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02-18-2013, 08:12 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
If we give him a raise, we'd be making a mistake. At 34, do we really expect him to get better from hereon in?

I don't like paying UFA dollars for past performance, and that's pretty much what we'd be doing if we gave Dupuis a raise (and in his case, past performance would be last season and this season).

We need to be VERY careful here. The last thing I want management to be thinking is that Pascal Dupuis is the scoring winger we've been looking for all along. That would be really terrible thinking.
He hasn't shown any signs of slowing down though. Quite the contrary however. He's still got excellent wheels and a motor that never quits. He also rarely gets injured. Who's to say that he isn't still playing with the same energy at 36-37 if he maintains his conditioning?

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02-18-2013, 08:36 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
If we give him a raise, we'd be making a mistake. At 34, do we really expect him to get better from hereon in?

I don't like paying UFA dollars for past performance, and that's pretty much what we'd be doing if we gave Dupuis a raise (and in his case, past performance would be last season and this season).

We need to be VERY careful here. The last thing I want management to be thinking is that Pascal Dupuis is the scoring winger we've been looking for all along. That would be really terrible thinking.
Don't they already think he's a playoff caliber scoring line winger? Isn't that where the coaches play him? Didn't Sid say he likes playing with Dupuis?

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02-18-2013, 08:48 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
If we give him a raise, we'd be making a mistake. At 34, do we really expect him to get better from hereon in?

I don't like paying UFA dollars for past performance, and that's pretty much what we'd be doing if we gave Dupuis a raise (and in his case, past performance would be last season and this season).

We need to be VERY careful here. The last thing I want management to be thinking is that Pascal Dupuis is the scoring winger we've been looking for all along. That would be really terrible thinking.
Here is your answer.

He doesn't need to get any better. He can play at any position, role on this team. Is that not worth 2.5 to this team if he's even reduced to 3rd line duty? It has absolutely nothing to do about putting a better winger beside, Sid. That winger to be better than Dupuis, right now... would cost a lot more than what we're talking about. The Stewart's, Kulemin's. Neither of these players are better than Dupuis and are maybe equal to him, but are we not trying to better the position and not making lateral moves, right? Meaning, if we get one of those guys it's to put him with, Geno?

Common, that would still be a bargain for what he does. He could easily ask for more elsewhere, but if he wants to stay here that would have to be 2.5 give or take. He would be worth every penny. Doesn't need to move, learn a new system, mesh with the new team, ect... Things are pretty comfortable here for him, he just needs paid his worth.

I'll certainly be fine if he's with Cooke, Sutter, or if he's up with, Sid, Kunitz. You can't complain about 2.5 for his services if that's what it would take. I'd lose Cooke and Kennedy before I'd let Dupuis go.

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02-18-2013, 08:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Here is your answer.

He doesn't need to get any better. He can play at any position, role on this team. Is that not worth 2.5 to this team if he's even reduced to 3rd line duty? It has absolutely nothing to do about putting a better winger beside, Sid. That winger to be better than Dupuis, right now... would cost a lot more than what we're talking about. The Stewart's, Kulemin's. Neither of these players are better than Dupuis and are maybe equal to him, but are we not trying to better the position and not making lateral moves, right? Meaning, if we get one of those guys it's to put him with, Geno?

Common, that would still be a bargain for what he does. He could easily ask for more elsewhere, but if he wants to stay here that would have to be 2.5 give or take. He would be worth every penny. Doesn't need to move, learn a new system, mesh with the new team, ect... Things are pretty comfortable here for him, he just needs paid his worth.

I'll certainly be fine if he's with Cooke, Sutter, or if he's up with, Sid, Kunitz. You can't complain about 2.5 for his services if that's what it would take. I'd lose Cooke and Kennedy before I'd let Dupuis go.
Stewart is better than Dupuis. Kulemin would be better than Dupuis in the 3rd wheel for Geno and Neal role.

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02-18-2013, 09:11 PM
  #60
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Im not sold on Pascal being a guy that shouldnt be replaced ASAP. His lifetime shooting percentage is under 10%. the greatest goal scorers score around 19%, great ones are around 15%. 12 is probably the cut off for wwhere youd be thrilled with. 10% isnt fantasic, especially playing with a great set up guy. This year he is at 20%, but thats clearly a fluke. he has never been anywhere close to that over a full season. He has played for well over a decade and cracked 50 pts once... if you get a chance for a gunner on sids line, you move Dupris to a third line role his play dictates he would be perfect for.

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02-18-2013, 09:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Stewart is better than Dupuis. Kulemin would be better than Dupuis in the 3rd wheel for Geno and Neal role.
Do you know this to be a fact? Have they played for this team that I'm not aware of?

One of those three are proven here, on the actual Penguins team. Until they are here and on this team given the chance to prove that right now, they're not.

If Stewart was better, he'd be playing in the top six over a rookie. His dedication is very suspect. Kulemin's is not, but he can't be consistent enough on the score sheet. Dupuis would probably be a good third wheel for, Malkin, too. That is his natural position.

Right now, in this moment, you'd be hard pressed to prove to me they're clear cut better than him. I'm not even talking age, for this team right now.

You can't be sure because, there's nothing to base it off of. It's all a gamble. All I'm saying is it's not a slam dunk, it's over, or that they couldn't. That would come with time here on the team. A slam dunk to me is Iginla, or someone who's not fighting for the top positions.

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02-18-2013, 09:46 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Do you know this to be a fact? Have they played for this team that I'm not aware of?

One of those three are proven here, on the actual Penguins team. Until they are here and on this team given the chance to prove that right now, they're not.

If Stewart was better, he'd be playing in the top six over a rookie. His dedication is very suspect. Kulemin's is not, but he can't be consistent enough on the score sheet. Dupuis would probably be a good third wheel for, Malkin, too. That is his natural position.

Right now, in this moment, you'd be hard pressed to prove to me they're clear cut better than him. I'm not even talking age, for this team right now.

You can't be sure because, there's nothing to base it off of. It's all a gamble. All I'm saying is it's not a slam dunk, it's over, or that they couldn't. That would come with time here on the team. A slam dunk to me is Iginla, or someone who's not fighting for the top positions.
they might not score more points, but they'd help us win more hockey games. They bring the exact attributes our top 6 is missing.

I wouldn't bring in Kulemin to replace Dupuis on Sid's line. But he'd be a better fit on Geno's line than Dupuis would be. Kulemin does everything we need in a 3rd wheel for Geno and Neal. He is hard to play against, plays great defense and could do the work in the corners freeing them to do what they do to score just like Kunitz did. That way Geno and Neal don't have to do as much of that work. Would his production be higher (even as high) as Dupuis? Probably not. But he'd help us win more playoff series.

Stewart also brings the size that would really make us harder to play against in the playoffs. He's a guy that can punish the other team which is huge over a 7 game series. He's a good right shot which would help the powerplay. He can use his size and strength to maintain possession of the puck. He's simply more talented offensively. Would his production be much higher than Dupuis' was last year? Maybe not. But he'd help us win more playoff series.

My ideal pickup would be someone like Iginla. He is just plain better than all of these guys at hockey and it isn't even close.

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02-18-2013, 09:50 PM
  #63
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02-20-2013, 07:46 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
no he's not. Unless by right now you literally just mean yesterday.
How is Kunitz better right now?

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02-20-2013, 09:05 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
they might not score more points, but they'd help us win more hockey games. They bring the exact attributes our top 6 is missing.

I wouldn't bring in Kulemin to replace Dupuis on Sid's line. But he'd be a better fit on Geno's line than Dupuis would be. Kulemin does everything we need in a 3rd wheel for Geno and Neal. He is hard to play against, plays great defense and could do the work in the corners freeing them to do what they do to score just like Kunitz did. That way Geno and Neal don't have to do as much of that work. Would his production be higher (even as high) as Dupuis? Probably not. But he'd help us win more playoff series.

Stewart also brings the size that would really make us harder to play against in the playoffs. He's a guy that can punish the other team which is huge over a 7 game series. He's a good right shot which would help the powerplay. He can use his size and strength to maintain possession of the puck. He's simply more talented offensively. Would his production be much higher than Dupuis' was last year? Maybe not. But he'd help us win more playoff series.

My ideal pickup would be someone like Iginla. He is just plain better than all of these guys at hockey and it isn't even close.
That's what it boils down to for me.

I like Dupuis. But, in the playoffs, on this team, his ideal role is L3 RW. Maybe, if you got a Perry or even an Iginla, then you could slot him on Sid's other wing. Short of that, you're lessening the probability that you advance further in the playoffs.

Note: I think people sometimes confuse what could happen and what will happen when others talk about guys like Iginla, Stewart, Kulemin, etc. Guys like that don't guarantee anything. Not even Perry guarantees anything. With so many variables (matchups, injuries, how the refs call the games, etc), the playoffs always are a crap shoot.

In 2008, with two stacked lines, the Pens marched through the Eastern Conference. Rookie jitters in the cup finals and an injured Geno meant a Detroit win.

In 2009, with less talent if you think about it, the Pens got the best possible matchups (no Boston or New Jersey in the east), everyone way healthy, and Datsyuk was injured. The Pens won the cup.

So, like 2008 with Hossa, acquisitions this year would guarantee nothing beyond the enhanced probability that the Pens advance further in the playoffs.

Ray Shero just needs to decide what that's worth. In 2008, it was worth trading away all of his chips. Last year, no deal was worth it.

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02-20-2013, 09:22 AM
  #66
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we do realize that Dupuis is huge for us on the PK right?
That's on top of the 20G he might get in a 48 games.

The biggest pre-requisite to be on Sid's line is to be able to skate like the wind, Dupuis brings that.

There is no way we can bring someone in to give us what Dupuis gives us for 2M a year, we would easily spend 3M a year or more unless it was an reclamation project that worked out.

That said, it is fairly likely that Pascal's next contract is his last. If someone throws a significant number of millions extra at him it will be hard to turn that down. He has family in Pitt, but this is his last contract to help setup his nest egg to support that family for the rest of his life.

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02-20-2013, 09:26 AM
  #67
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we do realize that Dupuis is huge for us on the PK right?
That's on top of the 20G he might get in a 48 games.

The biggest pre-requisite to be on Sid's line is to be able to skate like the wind, Dupuis brings that.

There is no way we can bring someone in to give us what Dupuis gives us for 2M a year, we would easily spend 3M a year or more unless it was an reclamation project that worked out.

That said, it is fairly likely that Pascal's next contract is his last. If someone throws a significant number of millions extra at him it will be hard to turn that down. He has family in Pitt, but this is his last contract to help setup his nest egg to support that family for the rest of his life.
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the Pens can get for 2M anyone who will do what Dupuis does or even about whether the Pens should keep him if he wants to stay at a number like that. But, I do think there's an argument as to what type of top six impact he gives you in the playoffs. In 2008, with an elite winger on the other side, he was a first liner. In 2009, in spite of the limitations on the second line, he was a fourth liner. Since then, he's been top six on a team that's won one playoff round in three years (for reasons that go well beyond where Dupuis plays, of course).

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02-20-2013, 09:27 AM
  #68
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How is Kunitz better right now?
19 points in 16 games (2nd on the Pens) and a plus 11 rating.

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02-20-2013, 09:34 AM
  #69
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19 points in 16 games (2nd on the Pens) and a plus 11 rating.
7 of those points have come on the PP, where Dupuis barely, if ever, plays.

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02-20-2013, 09:37 AM
  #70
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7 of those points have come on the PP, where Dupuis barely, if ever, plays.
The +11 though, no + on the powerplay.

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02-20-2013, 09:47 AM
  #71
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The +11 though, no + on the powerplay.
You mean a +11 versus +7 comparison that can be explained by all the extra shifts Kunitz gets with Sid and Geno on a stacked line.

Kunitz has better stats. The numbers show that they are the result of his getting PP time and extra shifts with Sid and Geno. Ergo, there's nothing in the numbers to substantiate that Kunitz is better than Dupuis.

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02-20-2013, 10:18 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You mean a +11 versus +7 comparison that can be explained by all the extra shifts Kunitz gets with Sid and Geno on a stacked line.

Kunitz has better stats. The numbers show that they are the result of his getting PP time and extra shifts with Sid and Geno. Ergo, there's nothing in the numbers to substantiate that Kunitz is better than Dupuis.
Other than the reason he is on the PP over Duper in the first place.

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02-20-2013, 10:36 AM
  #73
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Other than the reason he is on the PP over Duper in the first place.
So many people do...or atleast should wonder WHY Kunitz is on the first PP unit to start with...but as stated since he is his stats are better. Dupper wins in speed, shot, D, hustle, heart, contract, and eyebrows

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02-20-2013, 11:48 AM
  #74
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If Shero, right now, offered him 3 years at the same hit, I wonder if he wouldn't jump on it. I'd definitely be cool with that.

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02-20-2013, 12:03 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by BrookswasHere44 View Post
So many people do...or atleast should wonder WHY Kunitz is on the first PP unit to start with...but as stated since he is his stats are better. Dupper wins in speed, shot, D, hustle, heart, contract, and eyebrows
Eyebrows aside, I disagree. Kunitz is a flat out better offensive hockey player.

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