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Jake Allen vs. Brian Elliott

View Poll Results: Who stays?
Jake Allen 23 41.07%
Brian Elliott 33 58.93%
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Old
02-18-2013, 02:28 PM
  #26
EastonBlues22
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Agree strongly with the three previous posters. Halak's fresh off a groin injury that has already relapsed once and that has lingered for weeks. There's simply no way you can risk running a tandem of Allen/McKenna out there should he go down again.

I'm also not reading nearly as much into Elliott's play this year as most others seem comfortable doing. He didn't play over the lockout and came in with some rusty mechanics, which has obviously hurt. The play of the team in front of him and Halak's injury certainly didn't help.

That said, his body of work at the NHL level (170+ starts) has been more than solid enough to warrant a little more faith in his abilities than he's generally received here.

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02-18-2013, 03:24 PM
  #27
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Elliott should get a start when it is clear our defense is back to normal. If Elliott fixes his rebound control, which is more than plausible, then he will be just fine.

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02-18-2013, 06:33 PM
  #28
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I think were starting allen against San Jose to give us a reason to send him down. I think we all know that with san jose's recent play there gonna come out hard and pissed off (please no thats what she said jokes ) If he gives up 4 or 5 tomorrow it will give us a reason to send him down, start halak wednesday and give elliott a chance possibly two or three games down the road to redeem himself.

If Allen can somehow survive the barrage that i'm guaranteeing he faces in the 1st period and pulls out a win against a hungry and extremely skilled san jose sharks team then I think he's for real and will stick with the club until he gives us a "legit" reason to send him back down.

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02-18-2013, 06:39 PM
  #29
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I'm just worried how Allen to react to being sent down. The guy seems very mentally cautious...it could be a turn for the worst if we send him down. On the other hand, he has outplayed Elliot.

I say keep Allen. Yea sure, he may benefit from everyday time in the AHL, but I think the risk of him being "hurt" mentally is greater. Plus, he's not even playing well in the AHL, so that might ruin his confidence as well.

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02-18-2013, 06:45 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STLBLUES44 View Post
I think were starting allen against San Jose to give us a reason to send him down. I think we all know that with san jose's recent play there gonna come out hard and pissed off (please no thats what she said jokes ) If he gives up 4 or 5 tomorrow it will give us a reason to send him down, start halak wednesday and give elliott a chance possibly two or three games down the road to redeem himself.

If Allen can somehow survive the barrage that i'm guaranteeing he faces in the 1st period and pulls out a win against a hungry and extremely skilled san jose sharks team then I think he's for real and will stick with the club until he gives us a "legit" reason to send him back down.
I think Allen will start Tuesday to give Halak at least one more day for his groin muscles to rest, to have a better chance of not re-injuring himself. IF Allen plays really well in a Blues' win, Hitch might ride him for one more day (vs. Colorado, then start Halak in the following game (for the very same reason). But, the Colorado game is the very last I see Allen playing before going back down to Peoria.

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02-18-2013, 06:45 PM
  #31
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Halak has a LOT to prove IMO. He's been very meh this year, has never been a full time #1 and has injury issues that manage to come at the worst times. I also wonder if there's any distance between him and the team. The recent stunt he pulled obviously pissed the players off, hence Oshie's quickly-walked-back frustration comments. It's an open question. He has an opportunity to lock down a #1 role just this moment but if he comes back and remains mediocre (which could EASILY happen) then the Blues' net hierarchy will remain unclear.

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02-18-2013, 06:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reavesthemaniac View Post
I'm just worried how Allen to react to being sent down. The guy seems very mentally cautious...it could be a turn for the worst if we send him down. On the other hand, he has outplayed Elliot.

I say keep Allen. Yea sure, he may benefit from everyday time in the AHL, but I think the risk of him being "hurt" mentally is greater. Plus, he's not even playing well in the AHL, so that might ruin his confidence as well.
If the risk of being hurt mentally is so great by being sent down, then he's way too fragile to play int he NHL at this position.

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02-18-2013, 06:50 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reavesthemaniac View Post
I'm just worried how Allen to react to being sent down. The guy seems very mentally cautious...it could be a turn for the worst if we send him down. On the other hand, he has outplayed Elliot.

I say keep Allen. Yea sure, he may benefit from everyday time in the AHL, but I think the risk of him being "hurt" mentally is greater. Plus, he's not even playing well in the AHL, so that might ruin his confidence as well.
If he's that mentally weak, he will never be an NHL starter. Plain and simple. He should understand that he's the odd man out because we can send him down without the potential of losing him. I think he will understand that.

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02-18-2013, 06:53 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
If he's that mentally weak, he will never be an NHL starter. Plain and simple. He should understand that he's the odd man out because we can send him down without the potential of losing him. I think he will understand that.
But he's played better than Elliot. That should keep him up.

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02-18-2013, 06:57 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by reavesthemaniac View Post
But he's played better than Elliot. That should keep him up.
For three games. Elliott played well the entire year last season. A few bad games shouldn't get him off the roster that quick.

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02-18-2013, 07:01 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Halak has a LOT to prove IMO. He's been very meh this year, has never been a full time #1 and has injury issues that manage to come at the worst times. I also wonder if there's any distance between him and the team. The recent stunt he pulled obviously pissed the players off, hence Oshie's quickly-walked-back frustration comments. It's an open question. He has an opportunity to lock down a #1 role just this moment but if he comes back and remains mediocre (which could EASILY happen) then the Blues' net hierarchy will remain unclear.
I've seen this brought up a few times. Where is that quote? What did he say? Does anyone have a link?

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02-18-2013, 08:06 PM
  #37
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Also interested in the Oshie thing...

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:09 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Halak has a LOT to prove IMO. He's been very meh this year, has never been a full time #1 and has injury issues that manage to come at the worst times. I also wonder if there's any distance between him and the team. The recent stunt he pulled obviously pissed the players off, hence Oshie's quickly-walked-back frustration comments. It's an open question. He has an opportunity to lock down a #1 role just this moment but if he comes back and remains mediocre (which could EASILY happen) then the Blues' net hierarchy will remain unclear.
I agree with this and also the second post you made. I have been lukewarm to Halak over the course of his STL career. I almost feel like he's still not over MTL dumping him in favor of Price, like a girlfriend who just becomes a trainwreck after her guy drops her for the younger, hotter version.

I also think people are very quick to pile on Elliott. He played absolutely lights out for us last year, especially when we needed him most, almost exactly in the same way Allen has for us this year. (I don't think Allen has been as lights out, but he's made the timely saves at a time where we DESPERATELY needed them) Elliott started out this year really well (Relief effort in Nashville, game in Chicago that could have been 5-0 in the first 10 minutes with all the odd man rushes) but he just didn't make the kind of timely save we saw from him last year during that horrific homestand (Where I would say 95% of our team played like garbage) Elliott has obviously struggled at times here (Last year in the playoffs, during the last homestand) but for a guy we signed off the scrap heap, and then signed to a -very- reasonable extension, it's hard to be upset with his overall body of work.

Now for the other side of the coin. Halak has all the tools to become a true #1 goaltender. Yet it never seems to happen. The year we acquired him he couldn't catch a puck to save his life, then ended up breaking his hand. Last year he started horribad, then the shutout at MTL and Hitchcock (not to mention Elliott playing really well) seemed to right his ship......yet he still only played in 46 games last year and got hurt in the playoffs. Then this year he's played very meh again, the 2 shutouts look nice on the stat sheet, but Detroit and Nashville were both completely shut down by our team....I think he had to make maybe one tough save in the two games combined. He's already been pulled twice (once was the injury, but he didn't look that great in that game either) and there's no way the time off has helped him hone his already rusty game.

Fact is, his two best years in the NHL statistically came when he played in the mid 40s for games, and his team had a strong second option pushing him (Price in MTL, Elliott here). Other then ONE magical playoff run, his resume is -very- thin on results for THE guy we're expecting to lead us to the Stanley Cup. I'm also on board with P9's conspiracy theory about the relationship Halak has with the team. I have always felt that the team has never really embraced him either. I don't think they dislike him, but I feel like they don't love him either. I have absolutely no proof of this, it's just a feeling I get.

Allen will go back to the AHL unless we decide to carry three goalies. There is no way we risk losing Elliott to waivers. Allen will be better for the time he spent here, and this offseason we have some interesting decisions to make regarding that position. I don't think you can expect much from a trade perspective for a goalie, but a couple of guys have landed for 1st round picks, so you never know.

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02-18-2013, 09:05 PM
  #39
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I don't understand how some people still have hope in Elliot. Sure, he played AMAZING last year, but he has sucked this year. The blues are a playoff team and cannot afford to give Elliot starts just because he was good last year. They need to play whoever is playing the best at the time of the games, and it's not going to be Elliot. Elliot has had his chance this year, and the blues cannot afford to give him starts just for the sake of doing so.

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02-18-2013, 09:19 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reavesthemaniac View Post
I don't understand how some people still have hope in Elliot. Sure, he played AMAZING last year, but he has sucked this year. The blues are a playoff team and cannot afford to give Elliot starts just because he was good last year. They need to play whoever is playing the best at the time of the games, and it's not going to be Elliot. Elliot has had his chance this year, and the blues cannot afford to give him starts just for the sake of doing so.
I can't believe you've lost all hope in him for one bad streak, to be honest.

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02-18-2013, 09:30 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by reavesthemaniac View Post
I don't understand how some people still have hope in Elliot. Sure, he played AMAZING last year, but he has sucked this year. The blues are a playoff team and cannot afford to give Elliot starts just because he was good last year. They need to play whoever is playing the best at the time of the games, and it's not going to be Elliot. Elliot has had his chance this year, and the blues cannot afford to give him starts just for the sake of doing so.
Look I'm not a big Elliott fan (as P9 liked to point out last year lol )but a complete loss of faith because of one back streak of games seems extreme as well.

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02-18-2013, 09:32 PM
  #42
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Ells will get it together. But I just wish we could keep allen up.... #Playoffhockeyteamproblems

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02-18-2013, 09:53 PM
  #43
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I agree with this and also the second post you made. I have been lukewarm to Halak over the course of his STL career. I almost feel like he's still not over MTL dumping him in favor of Price, like a girlfriend who just becomes a trainwreck after her guy drops her for the younger, hotter version.

I also think people are very quick to pile on Elliott. He played absolutely lights out for us last year, especially when we needed him most, almost exactly in the same way Allen has for us this year. (I don't think Allen has been as lights out, but he's made the timely saves at a time where we DESPERATELY needed them) Elliott started out this year really well (Relief effort in Nashville, game in Chicago that could have been 5-0 in the first 10 minutes with all the odd man rushes) but he just didn't make the kind of timely save we saw from him last year during that horrific homestand (Where I would say 95% of our team played like garbage) Elliott has obviously struggled at times here (Last year in the playoffs, during the last homestand) but for a guy we signed off the scrap heap, and then signed to a -very- reasonable extension, it's hard to be upset with his overall body of work.

Now for the other side of the coin. Halak has all the tools to become a true #1 goaltender. Yet it never seems to happen. The year we acquired him he couldn't catch a puck to save his life, then ended up breaking his hand. Last year he started horribad, then the shutout at MTL and Hitchcock (not to mention Elliott playing really well) seemed to right his ship......yet he still only played in 46 games last year and got hurt in the playoffs. Then this year he's played very meh again, the 2 shutouts look nice on the stat sheet, but Detroit and Nashville were both completely shut down by our team....I think he had to make maybe one tough save in the two games combined. He's already been pulled twice (once was the injury, but he didn't look that great in that game either) and there's no way the time off has helped him hone his already rusty game.

Fact is, his two best years in the NHL statistically came when he played in the mid 40s for games, and his team had a strong second option pushing him (Price in MTL, Elliott here). Other then ONE magical playoff run, his resume is -very- thin on results for THE guy we're expecting to lead us to the Stanley Cup. I'm also on board with P9's conspiracy theory about the relationship Halak has with the team. I have always felt that the team has never really embraced him either. I don't think they dislike him, but I feel like they don't love him either. I have absolutely no proof of this, it's just a feeling I get.

Allen will go back to the AHL unless we decide to carry three goalies. There is no way we risk losing Elliott to waivers. Allen will be better for the time he spent here, and this offseason we have some interesting decisions to make regarding that position. I don't think you can expect much from a trade perspective for a goalie, but a couple of guys have landed for 1st round picks, so you never know.
As weird as this may sound, I've always had that feeling too, I keep wondering if Halak is really happy there, like you say, it just seems like the team hasn't really accepted him, or he's just not comfortable playing there.

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02-18-2013, 10:32 PM
  #44
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This thread is based mostly on weird speculation, and bizarre conclusions.

- Jake Allen has played well, not great, but well during his stint. Its very encouraging. I have high hopes for his NHL future.

- Halak has a relatively minor injury. He wasn't very sharp early in the season, but that's true of most of the goalies in the league who didn't play overseas.

- Elliott was not ready for the season to start, and he certainly wasn't ready to take over for Halak. My personal feeling is that his poor play is what snowballed the team's lack of confidence and exacerbated the problems on defense. (Its not all his fault, but I think that's the root of the problem.)

- Jake Allen will go back to Peoria, but maybe we'll see him again this season. We certainly will if Elliott can't get back into form. But I find it bizarre to conclude that he won't pull it together based on that stretch of games. Or...OK, sure there's room for skepticism. Even if I grant extreme pessimism, the idea of releasing him on waivers for no return....its just idiotic asset management. Unless and until Elliott completely falls apart with no hope of return, the Blues will give him the space and coaching to get back into form.

- Its like Blues fans have no memory of the tandem having the best save percentage in the league just last season. I can't believe how quickly this fanbase has become spoiled about goaltending, after so many years of frustration and trying to get excited about journeymen like Mason and Legace.

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02-18-2013, 11:17 PM
  #45
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Is there any speculated ETA on Halak's return?

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02-18-2013, 11:20 PM
  #46
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Is there any speculated ETA on Halak's return?


He's starting Wednesday in Colorado

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02-19-2013, 12:03 AM
  #47
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I agree with this and also the second post you made. I have been lukewarm to Halak over the course of his STL career. I almost feel like he's still not over MTL dumping him in favor of Price, like a girlfriend who just becomes a trainwreck after her guy drops her for the younger, hotter version.

I also think people are very quick to pile on Elliott. He played absolutely lights out for us last year, especially when we needed him most, almost exactly in the same way Allen has for us this year. (I don't think Allen has been as lights out, but he's made the timely saves at a time where we DESPERATELY needed them) Elliott started out this year really well (Relief effort in Nashville, game in Chicago that could have been 5-0 in the first 10 minutes with all the odd man rushes) but he just didn't make the kind of timely save we saw from him last year during that horrific homestand (Where I would say 95% of our team played like garbage) Elliott has obviously struggled at times here (Last year in the playoffs, during the last homestand) but for a guy we signed off the scrap heap, and then signed to a -very- reasonable extension, it's hard to be upset with his overall body of work.

Now for the other side of the coin. Halak has all the tools to become a true #1 goaltender. Yet it never seems to happen. The year we acquired him he couldn't catch a puck to save his life, then ended up breaking his hand. Last year he started horribad, then the shutout at MTL and Hitchcock (not to mention Elliott playing really well) seemed to right his ship......yet he still only played in 46 games last year and got hurt in the playoffs. Then this year he's played very meh again, the 2 shutouts look nice on the stat sheet, but Detroit and Nashville were both completely shut down by our team....I think he had to make maybe one tough save in the two games combined. He's already been pulled twice (once was the injury, but he didn't look that great in that game either) and there's no way the time off has helped him hone his already rusty game.

Fact is, his two best years in the NHL statistically came when he played in the mid 40s for games, and his team had a strong second option pushing him (Price in MTL, Elliott here). Other then ONE magical playoff run, his resume is -very- thin on results for THE guy we're expecting to lead us to the Stanley Cup. I'm also on board with P9's conspiracy theory about the relationship Halak has with the team. I have always felt that the team has never really embraced him either. I don't think they dislike him, but I feel like they don't love him either. I have absolutely no proof of this, it's just a feeling I get.

Allen will go back to the AHL unless we decide to carry three goalies. There is no way we risk losing Elliott to waivers. Allen will be better for the time he spent here, and this offseason we have some interesting decisions to make regarding that position. I don't think you can expect much from a trade perspective for a goalie, but a couple of guys have landed for 1st round picks, so you never know.
I'd rather see Allen developing as the backup next season. I'd have Halak play only a maximum of about 48 games to Allen's 34, as almost a 1a/1b tandem. I don't see Halak as all that much better (possibly just a little more reliable only because Allen has been so inconsistent in The AHL). This will mean that The Blues will need to trade Elliott. I hope he regains decent form so there will be some market for him.

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02-19-2013, 12:27 AM
  #48
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Its like Blues fans have no memory of the tandem having the best save percentage in the league just last season. I can't believe how quickly this fanbase has become spoiled about goaltending, after so many years of frustration and trying to get excited about journeymen like Mason and Legace.
I have no problem about the tandem. I have a problem with Halak being THE #1. He has never been one, nor has he shown the motivation to really want to reach out and take it while playing for our team. Let's all be honest here, there's no way we roll with a tandem in the playoffs. It's going to be one guy. I'm not sure if Halak can really be that guy for us. I'm not sure if Elliott is any better. I mean I -suppose- we could rock with our tandem, but I see that generating more problems then it causes if one of the guys even slightly falters. I wasn't alive in the 60's, even though it's a different era, we had two outstanding goalies.....did we rotate them then? Has any team in the last 50 years -won- a Cup using a tandem in the playoffs? I truly don't know, but I can't think of a team off the top of my head that employed a tandem and won the Cup.

Also, remember that sports is all about what have you done for me lately. For how good our goaltending was last year, they have been for the most part (Until Allen showed the veterans how it's done) pretty atrocious and as you or someone else pointed out, really the root of our problem. A couple of timely saves and that homestand could have been -much- different.

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02-19-2013, 12:36 AM
  #49
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I'd rather see Allen developing as the backup next season. I'd have Halak play only a maximum of about 48 games to Allen's 34, as almost a 1a/1b tandem. I don't see Halak as all that much better (possibly just a little more reliable only because Allen has been so inconsistent in The AHL). This will mean that The Blues will need to trade Elliott. I hope he regains decent form so there will be some market for him.
I'm pretty on board with this idea. In a perfect world Allen will go back to the AHL, dominate, and make it pretty clear he's ready to move into a NHL role. Elliott will come back from this break and play on fire. Halak will play well over the regular season and then turn it up during the playoffs. We then trade one of them for John Tavares or Malkin and win 300 Stanley Cups.

In all seriousness I do think Allen should probably get a few more games in the NHL this year, and unless something catastrophic occurs should be pushing pretty hard for a roster spot next year. It's fun to think of what we could do in the FA market if we let AMac walk and trade Halak, basically swapping his contract for Allen's.....that's a lot of money to go have some fun with! Not saying we -should- do this, but Brian Elliott and Jake Allen with Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry I could live with! #starryeyes

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02-19-2013, 12:37 AM
  #50
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Not only have I also felt the way you guys do about Halak's relationship with the team, but I also had a weird thought about Halak not actually being injured. In this crazy scenario of mine, he wasn't able to handle the pressure the media was putting on his return with Elliott and the team's struggles...I imagined him puking in a trash can and wimping out last second, throwing Elliott right back to the wolves. I know that's not what happened, but Oshie seemed uber pissed.

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