HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Do you fire Laviolette? (Philadelphia Daily News article dated March 12, 2013)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-18-2013, 09:31 AM
  #626
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
There seems to be this prevailing theory that Gagne "only" wanted to go to Tampa Bay. That didn't really manifest itself leaving after just one year, and as soon as he got there, he was saying in interviews he was only staying one year.

That's the deal Holmgren got (and I think he thought Walker was a good player), and Gagne could either waive his no-trade to go there, or be waived and get claimed by Edmonton. You tell me which you'd rather do.
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...htning/1109899

Quote:
"I'm not stupid," Gagne said. "When I was wondering where I might go, I was looking around to see what kind of players I could play with. I need a big year. With the Lightning, I see a team that is willing to make some moves to get back into the playoffs. I like the way Steve Yzerman is thinking. They're a young team with Vinny, with Marty, with Steven Stamkos. That helped me make the decision to waive my no-trade contract."
Him wanting to leave after a year seems irrelevant. Sounds like he wanted to have a big year before he hit UFA and Tampa had the talent to pump up his numbers.

I don't know if there were other teams he was willing to waive his no trade clause for and maybe Holmgren thought Walker was a good player. There really is no way to prove either point. I think he wanted to go to Tampa and Holmgren made it happen. The Flyers have always tried to do right by its players, well the ones they like anyway, even if it doesn't benefit the club, just like when they traded Roenick for nothing to L.A. because he wanted to go to the west coast. Since it was just a salary dump, like with Roenick, I think the organization tried to do its best for a long standing player.

Psuhockey is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 01:56 PM
  #627
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,174
vCash: 50
Gagne only has 62 points since we traded him. We saved $5m a year on him. Much as I love Gags, it was a solid move.

1865 is online now  
Old
02-18-2013, 03:41 PM
  #628
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,888
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...htning/1109899



Him wanting to leave after a year seems irrelevant. Sounds like he wanted to have a big year before he hit UFA and Tampa had the talent to pump up his numbers.

I don't know if there were other teams he was willing to waive his no trade clause for and maybe Holmgren thought Walker was a good player. There really is no way to prove either point. I think he wanted to go to Tampa and Holmgren made it happen. The Flyers have always tried to do right by its players, well the ones they like anyway, even if it doesn't benefit the club, just like when they traded Roenick for nothing to L.A. because he wanted to go to the west coast. Since it was just a salary dump, like with Roenick, I think the organization tried to do its best for a long standing player.
And then there was the interview he did with Tampa Bay website where he kept emphasizing he was only staying one year. There was a giant thread about it here. You only need to waive your no-trade for one team when you know what team you're being traded to

GKJ is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 04:14 PM
  #629
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,073
vCash: 500
Peter Laviolette on the phone to his wife after today's game: "Good news, honey. Looks like we'll be able to pay the heating AND cable bill this month!"

BernieParent is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 04:19 PM
  #630
MountainHawk
Registered User
 
MountainHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salem, MA
Country: Vanuatu
Posts: 12,771
vCash: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby
*2012-Jun-12 Traded James VanRiemsdyk from Philadelphia Flyers to Toronto Maple Leafs for Luke Schenn
Another move that nobody could complain about. As much success JVR might be having in Toronto, the defense in Philadelphia would be in a whole lot of trouble without Schenn. He's been a rock back there.
Worst trade of the bunch. Instead of going after all the huge names, Homer could have signed a decent defenseman or two to fill the hole and not been forced to trade someone with the potential to be the next great American power forward ala LeClair.

This was a horrible, horrible trade stemming from Holmgren's inability to just make the basic smart signings instead of making a splash.

MountainHawk is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 04:46 PM
  #631
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,105
vCash: 500
I thought about this a lot on a weekend trip and here's what I think.

Lavi has a major flaw as a "systems" coach. We saw it in the playoffs last year against NJD when his left wing lock system was utterly defeated at every turn, and we saw it against PIT while Neal was suspended, Bylsma changed his lines, and Lavi could not get the matchups he wanted on home OR road ice.

So, in life, I think Lavi has issues. THAT SAID, this year he had no offseason and no training camp in which to set up any of his systems, so of course the team is struggling.

Given that he is a systems coach and is especially handicapped this season, I would fire him ONLY IF an upgrade is available. My assumption being that next season, he's still be an inflexible systems coach, but at least he'll have his systems set up.

In life I'd like a more creative coach, but I don't want to make a move just for the sake of making a move, and end up with a worse coach. Not this season, at any rate.

Unstable is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 04:57 PM
  #632
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Worst trade of the bunch. Instead of going after all the huge names, Homer could have signed a decent defenseman or two to fill the hole and not been forced to trade someone with the potential to be the next great American power forward ala LeClair.

This was a horrible, horrible trade stemming from Holmgren's inability to just make the basic smart signings instead of making a splash.
Oh please. JVR was NEVER going to achieve that here. Get over it. Schenn has been fantastic, so I don't know why you're continuing to whine over this move. It was a good hockey trade for both clubs.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #633
SuchySays
Registered User
 
SuchySays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Poconos
Country: United States
Posts: 2,201
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Oh please. JVR was NEVER going to achieve that here. Get over it. Schenn has been fantastic, so I don't know why you're continuing to whine over this move. It was a good hockey trade for both clubs.
agreed 100%

SuchySays is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 05:19 PM
  #634
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Oh please. JVR was NEVER going to achieve that here. Get over it. Schenn has been fantastic, so I don't know why you're continuing to whine over this move. It was a good hockey trade for both clubs.
Just curious but why was JVR never going to achieve that here? Don't get me wrong I like this trade I think Schenn will be a stud back there for us for a long time along with his brother up front. But I'm just curious as to your reasoning. He's only averaging 18 min a game in Toronto, it's not like he couldn't get that here and I would argue that we have much better centers for him to play with. I think he's playing with bozak mostly. I could see him doing well on Schenn's wing

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 05:40 PM
  #635
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Just curious but why was JVR never going to achieve that here? Don't get me wrong I like this trade I think Schenn will be a stud back there for us for a long time along with his brother up front. But I'm just curious as to your reasoning. He's only averaging 18 min a game in Toronto, it's not like he couldn't get that here and I would argue that we have much better centers for him to play with. I think he's playing with bozak mostly. I could see him doing well on Schenn's wing
Here, he had to be as good as Patrick Kane.

There, he only needs to be better than Luke Schenn at the end of his time in Toronto.

It's not fair, but it's true.

Unstable is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 06:37 PM
  #636
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,364
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Worst trade of the bunch. Instead of going after all the huge names, Homer could have signed a decent defenseman or two to fill the hole and not been forced to trade someone with the potential to be the next great American power forward ala LeClair.

This was a horrible, horrible trade stemming from Holmgren's inability to just make the basic smart signings instead of making a splash.
Dude, the trade is less than 20 games in and you are calling this the worst trade? JvR didn't even score a point in his last two games! How can you say he will be the next John LeClair?!?!?! 10 points in 15 games is pretty Earth-shattering, I agree. But I think you have to give this trade AT LEAST a full 82 game season to even begin to make a call on how this trade looks. Right now, if anything, it looks pretty even. Flyers got a solid defender, Leafs got a solid winger.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 06:47 PM
  #637
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,888
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Worst trade of the bunch. Instead of going after all the huge names, Homer could have signed a decent defenseman or two to fill the hole and not been forced to trade someone with the potential to be the next great American power forward ala LeClair.

This was a horrible, horrible trade stemming from Holmgren's inability to just make the basic smart signings instead of making a splash.
I don't think they felt they were forced to trade JVR. I think they wanted to. That trade was made at the draft, not after free agency.

GKJ is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 07:01 PM
  #638
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
Country: England
Posts: 12,041
vCash: 500
i dont miss JVR one bit..

totaly happy with the trade.. totaly.

Flyerfan4life is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 07:09 PM
  #639
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Just curious but why was JVR never going to achieve that here? Don't get me wrong I like this trade I think Schenn will be a stud back there for us for a long time along with his brother up front. But I'm just curious as to your reasoning. He's only averaging 18 min a game in Toronto, it's not like he couldn't get that here and I would argue that we have much better centers for him to play with. I think he's playing with bozak mostly. I could see him doing well on Schenn's wing
Here's the thing - JVR played with Giroux and he couldn't get the job done with one of the most talented centermen in the game. JVR needed the trade to light a fire under his backside and get him going. He never would have got it going here. I'm glad he's doing well in Toronto, but let's not kid our selves into believing he was ever going to put it together here. He needed that trade to wake him up or he would have been a case of "what could have been."

Schenn's issue was never a case of if he could put it together. His was a case of Ron Wilson was a complete d-bag who had a serious hatred for him. Schenn needed to get out of Toronto. I'l say this right now - Schenn will be the Brad McCrimmon of this team for a long, long time. Great trade anyway you look at it.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 07:10 PM
  #640
MountainHawk
Registered User
 
MountainHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salem, MA
Country: Vanuatu
Posts: 12,771
vCash: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Here's the thing - JVR played with Giroux and he couldn't get the job done with one of the most talented centermen in the game. JVR needed the trade to light a fire under his backside and get him going. He never would have got it going here. I'm glad he's doing well in Toronto, but let's not kid our selves into believing he was ever going to put it together here. He needed that trade to wake him up or he would have been a case of "what could have been."

Schenn's issue was never a case of if he could put it together. His was a case of Ron Wilson was a complete d-bag who had a serious hatred for him. Schenn needed to get out of Toronto. I'l say this right now - Schenn will be the Brad McCrimmon of this team for a long, long time. Great trade anyway you look at it.
Schenn will be gone in 3 years along with most of the rest of this team as long as we keep the idiot as GM.

And it is foolish to say JvR wouldn't have done it here. Power forwards TAKE TIME to grow into their game. JvR has put up virtually identical numbers to LeClair early his career. He would have grown into it, and scored 400 goals for the Flyers in the next 12 seasons, but he wasn't a 'Flyers type of player' so Clarke and Holmgren got rid of him.

MountainHawk is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 07:28 PM
  #641
Alchemy
Philadelphia Flyers
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 12,469
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Schenn will be gone in 3 years along with most of the rest of this team as long as we keep the idiot as GM.

And it is foolish to say JvR wouldn't have done it here. Power forwards TAKE TIME to grow into their game. JvR has put up virtually identical numbers to LeClair early his career. He would have grown into it, and scored 400 goals for the Flyers in the next 12 seasons, but he wasn't a 'Flyers type of player' so Clarke and Holmgren got rid of him.
JVR isn't even close to LeClair. Two different players with different skillsets. JVR will never have the shot and physically dominating strength Johnny had. Guys bounced off LeClair when they hit him. JVR will be the better skater while having more natural skill. JVR at this point of his career is still a perimeter player while he does go in front of the net on the PP. He's not even close to being the player LeClair is down low.

Alchemy is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 08:26 PM
  #642
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 37,253
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Here's the thing - JVR played with Giroux and he couldn't get the job done with one of the most talented centermen in the game. JVR needed the trade to light a fire under his backside and get him going. He never would have got it going here. I'm glad he's doing well in Toronto, but let's not kid our selves into believing he was ever going to put it together here. He needed that trade to wake him up or he would have been a case of "what could have been."

Schenn's issue was never a case of if he could put it together. His was a case of Ron Wilson was a complete d-bag who had a serious hatred for him. Schenn needed to get out of Toronto. I'l say this right now - Schenn will be the Brad McCrimmon of this team for a long, long time. Great trade anyway you look at it.
This I agree with. When there were reports about him waffling over whether he was going to get surgery for his injury, that was pretty much the last straw for me.

I still think he probably has the higher upside, but I suspect he was getting complacent here.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 09:46 PM
  #643
DumpyD
Registered User
 
DumpyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
So, in life, I think Lavi has issues. THAT SAID, this year he had no offseason and no training camp in which to set up any of his systems, so of course the team is struggling.
If 29 other teams are in the same situation, I don't think you can use that as an excuse.

As for the JvR conversation, let's see how the rest of the season plays out before we start analyzing the trade that closely. JvR will continue disappearing for huge stretches at a time and schenn, Coburn, and grossman will all be fun to watch when the playoff intensity picks up (if we make it). Now if only we had a gm that could find them puck-moving counter-parts for the next few years...

DumpyD is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 09:55 PM
  #644
BleedOrange
BuildThroughTheDraft
 
BleedOrange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Oshawa Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Worst trade of the bunch. Instead of going after all the huge names, Homer could have signed a decent defenseman or two to fill the hole and not been forced to trade someone with the potential to be the next great American power forward ala LeClair.

This was a horrible, horrible trade stemming from Holmgren's inability to just make the basic smart signings instead of making a splash.


L Schenn has been great for us since the trade no he doesnt put up big numbers on the offence but blocked shots and hits ill take it.So JVR has what 7 goals big deal if you like him which go cheer for the Laffs.

BleedOrange is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 10:01 PM
  #645
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,073
vCash: 500
If this season will be a whole lot of inconsistent mediocrity, the best hope is that the young players get all sorts of opportunities to establish their roles moving forward. I'm thinking particularly of Gustafsson, who is (for better or worse) the team's best hope for a puck-moving defenseman behind Timonen. Ride him for the rest of the season and see if he can sink or swim logging big ES and PP minutes

BernieParent is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 10:05 PM
  #646
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
If 29 other teams are in the same situation, I don't think you can use that as an excuse.
The other 29 coaches aren't all system coaches.

I don't have a lot of knowledge about all of them, I'm sure that some systems coaches are doing fine. I'm just saying the lack of time to set up systems is playing a part in the team's struggles.

Unstable is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 11:12 PM
  #647
Crescent Street
Saturday Nite Hockey
 
Crescent Street's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Long Island
Posts: 2,463
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
If this season will be a whole lot of inconsistent mediocrity, the best hope is that the young players get all sorts of opportunities to establish their roles moving forward. I'm thinking particularly of Gustafsson, who is (for better or worse) the team's best hope for a puck-moving defenseman behind Timonen. Ride him for the rest of the season and see if he can sink or swim logging big ES and PP minutes
Watched this kid all game and was probably quickest of all our defensemen in getting the puck out of the zone whether it be by passing or skating.

Crescent Street is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 11:43 PM
  #648
Snipsnap12
Registered User
 
Snipsnap12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent Street View Post
Watched this kid all game and was probably quickest of all our defensemen in getting the puck out of the zone whether it be by passing or skating.

Gustaffson reminds me of a kimmo lite, likely will never have the hockey sense and overall defensive play of kimmo, but he is quick, has good offensive awareness and breaks the zone pretty well.

Snipsnap12 is offline  
Old
02-18-2013, 11:52 PM
  #649
Mgkibbles
Registered User
 
Mgkibbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Gilbertsville, Pa
Posts: 2,021
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Gustaffson reminds me of a kimmo lite, likely will never have the hockey sense and overall defensive play of kimmo, but he is quick, has good offensive awareness and breaks the zone pretty well.
How dare you. Gus is Swedish.

Mgkibbles is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 01:20 AM
  #650
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,232
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Oh please. JVR was NEVER going to achieve that here. Get over it. Schenn has been fantastic, so I don't know why you're continuing to whine over this move. It was a good hockey trade for both clubs.

Respectfully, I'm not sure I buy that. And I am sure that no one can't say it definitively. JVR has certainly shown stretches of play here on the level of what he's doing in Toronto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Here's the thing - JVR played with Giroux and he couldn't get the job done with one of the most talented centermen in the game.
Not buying this either. When he started the year with Jagr and Giroux, he picked right up where he left off in the playoffs last year. He had something like 19 points in his first 21 games before getting injured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
JVR needed the trade to light a fire under his backside and get him going. He never would have got it going here. I'm glad he's doing well in Toronto, but let's not kid our selves into believing he was ever going to put it together here. He needed that trade to wake him up or he would have been a case of "what could have been."

Schenn's issue was never a case of if he could put it together. His was a case of Ron Wilson was a complete d-bag who had a serious hatred for him. Schenn needed to get out of Toronto. I'l say this right now - Schenn will be the Brad McCrimmon of this team for a long, long time. Great trade anyway you look at it.
Again, you can't definitively say that he wouldn't "get it going here". He already had "gotten it going" for prolonged stretches. And when he wasn't producing he was still a pretty decent two-way player for a young guy. I'm not sure why Ron Wilson's hatred seems like a more acceptable excuse for Luke's struggles than documented medical injuries do for JVR. I have never heard of a coach sabatoging a player who's strengths so closely aligned with exactly what his team needed more of. But injuries derail guys' seasons all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
This I agree with. When there were reports about him waffling over whether he was going to get surgery for his injury, that was pretty much the last straw for me.

I still think he probably has the higher upside, but I suspect he was getting complacent here.
I am not sure what implications that dilemma has on him as a player though. There's a good chance that the choice wasn't between his preference or the good of the team. I think the nature of hip injuries is often such that it's not even worth it to open the hip up unless there's something really bad going on in there, as it never heals to be good as new anyway (this was told to me by a surgeon after diagnosing me with a torn labrum). I can think of two people just among the goalies I know who opted to have their hips cleaned out of debris (loose bits of cartilage etc.), as opposed to actually having them opened up and repaired. Of course I'm not a medical professional and I wasn't JVR's doctor, but this sort of medical dilemma is not uncommon.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.