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Flames - Don't rebuild...reload

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Old
02-18-2013, 07:57 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Detroit is a better team than Calgary currently, and the prospect pools between the two aren't even close. Try again.
Yeah. Detroit has pretty crappy prospects. Must be maddening for you to see the Flames own the dead wings.

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02-18-2013, 08:00 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
One of these names doesn't belong with the others.



Filppula likely doesn't see free agency. If Detroit has any problem signing Howard/Filppula/Brunner they'll use a buyout in a heartbeat.

Not to mention there's this thing called the salary cap, and unless the Flames plan on letting Iginla go, there's no way they can afford almost any one of those guys.
If Iginla re-signs it'll be at a discount. The Flames in addition to Iginla's 7 mil will also have Cervenka's 3.775, and Babchuk's 2.5 coming off the books.

The Flames also, finally have the depth within the organization to fill secondary roles on the cheap. Expect the Flames to be major bidders this off-season.

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02-18-2013, 08:03 PM
  #28
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The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?
Wings have a better prospect pool than Calgary, and have Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall. Pretty sure Detroit is going to be okay.

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:04 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Gary83 View Post
Yeah. Detroit has pretty crappy prospects. Must be maddening for you to see the Flames own the dead wings.
You forgot the sarcasm smiley.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
If Iginla re-signs it'll be at a discount. The Flames in addition to Iginla's 7 mil will also have Cervenka's 3.775, and Babchuk's 2.5 coming off the books.

The Flames also, finally have the depth within the organization to fill secondary roles on the cheap. Expect the Flames to be major bidders this off-season.
If they get Iginla at $5M they'll have less than $10M left for 6 players.

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:13 PM
  #30
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I can't see any of those players returning stuff like that. Maybe Iginla. But not Kipper or Jbo.

Although I guess it depends what you classify an "A" prospect as.

Calgary should start making some deals to acquire picks & young guys, this year is the best year to start the rebuild because the draft is better this year, so maybe the picks will be better.

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
Here is how the Flames can change the makeup of the team without doing a "scorched earth" rebuild. It only involves a few ballsy steps, and even if it doesnt succeed, they would be no worse off than they are now. It must be accepted at the start to stay somewhat competitive, but probably burn the rest of this year and next. If you need to have a "lost" season, this would be ideal. I think thats all that would be needed, but management must be willing to take a step back. Here goes:

Trade Iginla Kiprussoff and Bouwmeester in separate deals. Start the discussions now to get the bidding started. All three of these guys are what I consider "over the top" players. They aren't going to be the future of the team, but in a short playoff run, they could be the last piece a team needs. With the bidding war that would ensue,
I think the minimum we could expect would be:
Iginla - decent player, "A" level prospect (not blue chip), and a 1st.
Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Bouw - decent player, "A" level prospect and a 1st

That gives us 2 roster players, 3 good prospects, and an additional 3 1sts.

Second, you make two lists: keepers and available.

Keep - Brodie, Baertchi, Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Wideman, Taylor, Ramo, Brossoit, Horak, Gaudreau, Reinhart and the 5 players acquired in the trades

You make a second list of essentially everyone else under contract in the organization. You take that and approach the Avalanche about O'Reilly (if he's still available by this point, of course). Tell them to pick any three players on the list OR any two and a draft pick. At the very least, that should get a conversation going. No one is "untouchable", but any inclusion of the players on the Keep list changes the nature of the negotiation.

On draft day, we can either go on a 1st round shopping spree, or trade them for needs of the organization, but not until we know we're not trading away Jones/Mackinnon for example.

Ice the best team you can put on the ice for the rest of this year. Put the C on Giordano, give an A to Cammalleri and Glencross. Give the team a whole 82 game schedule to gel, tinker when neccessary and I think you've constructed a rebuild that will keep you somewhat competitive, while restocking the cupboards.
Lol...so essentially, you hope to get trade talks started by telling the Avs to select from:

Alex Tanguay
Matt Stajan
Lee Stempniak
Blake Comeau
Blair Jones
Tim Jackman
Steve Begin
Paul Byron
Anton Babchuk
Cory Sarich
Chris Butler
Derek Smith

You could offer the Avs 5 of those players and they'd say no. The Avs are not going to ask the moon for O'Reilly, but a roster player and a top prospect is what they will wait for, and drag this out until the summer if they have to wait that long, they won't budge on O'Reilly. There are a lot of teams in this league who could come up with much, MUCH better offers for O'Reilly than the "remaining players under contract"; you're essentially saying for scraps, the Flames can get negotiations started with the Avs. The only player I'd consider trading for is Tanguay, but the Avs are rebuilding, not in search of veteran top 6 forwards although Tanguay is a good one

Lastly, there is not a chance the Avs would even consider trading O'Reilly to a divisional rival like Calgary unless Baertschi is included

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:22 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
You forgot the sarcasm smiley.



If they get Iginla at $5M they'll have less than $10M left for 6 players.

They'll only need to sign 5 players if they re-sign Iginla: 2 forwards, 2 defenceman, and 1 goalie. They'll also have 10.626 mil in cap space if Iginla is re-signed for 5, which is more than 10. TJ Brodie, Backlund, and Butler, are likely to fill out 3 of those roles on the cheap. Also, Iginla will be back for 4 mil, if he does come back.

If the Flames really have a shot at bringing in big names, a player like Stempniak or Stajan can be moved. Freeing up 2.5 to 6 mil more in cap space.

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02-18-2013, 08:33 PM
  #33
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If thats the kind of returns those kinds of players merited everyone would be trading everything they have. Your value is way off.

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:36 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
They'll only need to sign 5 players if they re-sign Iginla: 2 forwards, 2 defenceman, and 1 goalie. They'll also have 10.626 mil in cap space if Iginla is re-signed for 5, which is more than 10. TJ Brodie, Backlund, and Butler, are likely to fill out 3 of those roles on the cheap. Also, Iginla will be back for 4 mil, if he does come back.

If the Flames really have a shot at bringing in big names, a player like Stempniak or Stajan can be moved. Freeing up 2.5 to 6 mil more in cap space.
Via capgeek they'll have $14.9M next year with 16 players on the roster. $14.9M - $5M = $9.9M, which is less than 10.

And ideally you carry 23 players on your roster, which would mean 6 left to sign after Iginla.

And I can't wait to see how Feaster is going to convince Perry/Semin/Getzlaf to leave what looks like two playoffs teams to come play for Calgary...

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02-18-2013, 08:38 PM
  #35
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Bouw for 1st, Forbort

Iginla for 2nd, Brett Ritchie

Kipp for Namestnikov

Assuming a lot here.

Or just Bouw for Stastny.

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:56 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Nova III View Post
Bouw for 1st, Forbort

Iginla for 2nd, Brett Ritchie

Kipp for Namestnikov

Assuming a lot here.

Or just Bouw for Stastny.
Stastny will be a long-term Av with O'Reilly being traded

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:58 PM
  #37
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The Flames have been attempting to "reload" for years with predictable results. Just give it up already. Blow it up.

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02-18-2013, 09:10 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
And trading away Kipper and Iggy will mean a scorched earth rebuild as those two were the only reason the Flames were sniffing the playoffs the past 2 years.
If you look this year, the Flames are where they usually are, juuuusst out of a playoff spot. Thats without Kipper for about half the games played so far and Iggy having his usual, unproductive slow start. This is what leads me to believe the Flames can trade these two and not suffer a major setback. Bouw is another story. The guy plays monster minutes against top competition and is also finding his offensive game again. That one would hurt.

Besides, a scorched earth rebuild is one of the dumbest things a franchise could consciously do.

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Old
02-18-2013, 09:19 PM
  #39
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Actually the dumbest thing you could consciously do is continue to allow your team to rest just on the outside of the bubble year after year and refuse to give up the good players who are slowing phasing out of the system.

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Old
02-18-2013, 09:30 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Step 1: Sign one of Getzlaf, Semin, Clarkson, or Perry
Step 2: Sign one of Clowe, Weiss, or Filpulla
Step 3: Profit


Hate to break it to both Flames fans and haters alike, but the Flames are not going to have a mutli-year rebuild. If the Flames are clearly not a playoff team in 4-6 weeks, we'll see some upcomming UFAs moved, but large parts of the team will stay intact and the Flames will seek to acquire big names via free agency.
The only guys I see seriously considering Calgary/not getting re-signed of the ones you listed are Semin, Clowe, and Weiss. Getzlaf is 99% likely to remain a Duck, ditto for Clarkson and the Devs. Perry may hit the open market but he'd be courted by every team in the league, so I don't see how he has Calgary in his top 10. Detroit has tons of cap room and can't afford to let Filppula go.

Semin doesn't seem like the right fit, Clowe seems like a perfect fit and Weiss will get a lot of suitors based on being one of the best C available. My guess is you guys just end up with Clowe, 5 years 21mil (4.2 hit).

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Old
02-18-2013, 09:42 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
Here is how the Flames can change the makeup of the team without doing a "scorched earth" rebuild. It only involves a few ballsy steps, and even if it doesnt succeed, they would be no worse off than they are now. It must be accepted at the start to stay somewhat competitive, but probably burn the rest of this year and next. If you need to have a "lost" season, this would be ideal. I think thats all that would be needed, but management must be willing to take a step back. Here goes:

Trade Iginla Kiprussoff and Bouwmeester in separate deals. Start the discussions now to get the bidding started. All three of these guys are what I consider "over the top" players. They aren't going to be the future of the team, but in a short playoff run, they could be the last piece a team needs. With the bidding war that would ensue,
I think the minimum we could expect would be:
Iginla - decent player, "A" level prospect (not blue chip), and a 1st.
Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Bouw - decent player, "A" level prospect and a 1st

That gives us 2 roster players, 3 good prospects, and an additional 3 1sts.

Second, you make two lists: keepers and available.

Keep - Brodie, Baertchi, Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Wideman, Taylor, Ramo, Brossoit, Horak, Gaudreau, Reinhart and the 5 players acquired in the trades

You make a second list of essentially everyone else under contract in the organization. You take that and approach the Avalanche about O'Reilly (if he's still available by this point, of course). Tell them to pick any three players on the list OR any two and a draft pick. At the very least, that should get a conversation going. No one is "untouchable", but any inclusion of the players on the Keep list changes the nature of the negotiation.

On draft day, we can either go on a 1st round shopping spree, or trade them for needs of the organization, but not until we know we're not trading away Jones/Mackinnon for example.

Ice the best team you can put on the ice for the rest of this year. Put the C on Giordano, give an A to Cammalleri and Glencross. Give the team a whole 82 game schedule to gel, tinker when neccessary and I think you've constructed a rebuild that will keep you somewhat competitive, while restocking the cupboards.
Decent player: Higgins or Booth
Prospect: Gaunce
1st

?

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02-18-2013, 10:00 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by DuncanKeithsElbow View Post
Decent player: Higgins or Booth
Prospect: Gaunce
1st

?
If its Vancouver its going to have to be a overpayment start with

Tanev, 1st, Raymond/Booth


Last edited by TheHudlinator: 02-18-2013 at 10:11 PM.
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Old
02-18-2013, 10:08 PM
  #43
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If its Vancouver its going to have to be a overpayment

Tanev, 1st, Raymond/Booth
That isn't overpayment.

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02-18-2013, 10:10 PM
  #44
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That isn't overpayment.
I meant that as a starting point

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:29 PM
  #45
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The Flames need to rebuild. I don't think the Flames will get that kind of return for Kiprusoff or Bouwmeester.

I don't think there's a team in contention looking for a starting goalie, and non playoff teams won't be looking to add a 36 year old starting goalie, especially at the cost of a decent roster player, good prospect and a 1st. And if there's a team that's a goalie away from contending, I'm sure Luongo will be a higher priority.

I'm not sure about Bouwmeester, I haven't really seen him play much, but I have a good enough idea that he's not worth a top prospect, decent roster player and a 1st.

I do think Iginla can get you a similar return, maybe not what you want, but I can see him going for a 1st and a top prospect.

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:34 PM
  #46
topchowda
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Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
If you look this year, the Flames are where they usually are, juuuusst out of a playoff spot. Thats without Kipper for about half the games played so far and Iggy having his usual, unproductive slow start. This is what leads me to believe the Flames can trade these two and not suffer a major setback. Bouw is another story. The guy plays monster minutes against top competition and is also finding his offensive game again. That one would hurt.

Besides, a scorched earth rebuild is one of the dumbest things a franchise could consciously do.
If the Flames can do well without Iggy playing as usual and Kipper gone.. maybe they can survive a quick rebuild. But wouldnt the return for those two players reflect their respective drop in performances?

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:38 PM
  #47
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Kipper should get a first but the value of Iggy is going down every game...I mean honestly, 1 goal in 14 games.....that is embarrassing...

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02-18-2013, 10:39 PM
  #48
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Kipper should get a first but the value of Iggy is going down every game...I mean honestly, 1 goal in 14 games.....that is embarrassing...
I know and no other points or solid defensive play, just put him on waivers already.

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02-18-2013, 10:42 PM
  #49
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I know and no other points or solid defensive play, just put him on waivers already.
The point is that he is declining and the Flames should have dealt him last year when his value was much higher......who is going to give up a tonne for a 35 year old player that is soon to be a free agent...

Horrible horrible asset management by the Flames and you guys are going to be irrelevant for years.....remember the young guns? Well you guys are the old guns .....ouch!!

Wonder when you guys will make the playoffs again?

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:45 PM
  #50
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Wonder when you guys will make the playoffs again?
A decade, right?

hurhurhurhrhur

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