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Old
02-18-2013, 11:38 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Gudbranson has been underwhelming.
I'm sorry, but how the F can you defend clemmensen and a couple other guys (Kuli?) and say Guds has been underwhelming? I don't get it.

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02-18-2013, 11:45 PM
  #52
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I'm sorry, but how the F can you defend clemmensen and a couple other guys (Kuli?) and say Guds has been underwhelming? I don't get it.
I didn't say Clemmer was good, just that the goals he was letting in were not always his fault. And I have repeatedly said Kuli shows signs of being great but makes at least one major stupid decision a game.

What has Guds really done? Any big hits that changed the momentum? Great defensive plays? Notable offensive plays? I barely notice him out there. His game has been okay but I expect to see more out of him. Something. Hence, his play has been underwhelming.

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02-19-2013, 12:02 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
This sounds so promising. Unfortunately, it is a formula we've dreamt over and over. I too really enjoy seeing Shore, and especially Huberdeau and Gudbranson, do well, but even if Markström becomes the best goalie ever, we need more. This team is so much better than teams we've had in prior years, but there are huge holes, the major one being goaltending, the other being the lack of a solid star on offense to lead the attack.
I have no comment on the past Panthers regimes. But if you look at the DT rebuild of the hawks and the Lombardi rebuild of the kings, it holds true that there were a few years of mediocrity in the beginning. This is followed by a few years of failed playoff runs, which was followed by a cup. Its the process were in, so its not surprising to me that the team is gawd awful right now. If it didn't take so long, and wasn't so hard, everone would have a cup. Many teams try this type of a rebuild and fail. Other teams get stuck in mediocrity. I just hope we do our rebuild right, and really, we just have to trust that we got the right guy, DT, and that he will do it the right way. Assuming that happens, then we just need to not get unlucky.

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02-19-2013, 12:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
I didn't say Clemmer was good, just that the goals he was letting in were not always his fault. And I have repeatedly said Kuli shows signs of being great but makes at least one major stupid decision a game.

What has Guds really done? Any big hits that changed the momentum? Great defensive plays? Notable offensive plays? I barely notice him out there. His game has been okay but I expect to see more out of him. Something. Hence, his play has been underwhelming.
Im not worried about Guds. He's coming off injury. Im sure he will be knocking skulls in another couple of weeks. Plus, don't forget that he is only a second year player. He is still early in his development. As long as he learns from his mistakes and continues to acclimatize to the NHL, its all good.

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02-19-2013, 12:11 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
Im not worried about Guds. He's coming off injury. Im sure he will be knocking skulls in another couple of weeks. Plus, don't forget that he is only a second year player. He is still early in his development. As long as he learns from his mistakes and continues to acclimatize to the NHL, its all good.
Yeah, I'm not worried. Like you said, injury, young player, the team blows etc. He'll be good, just want to see some more out of him because he's the type of guy who can change the momentum with a huge hit or even a fight(I don't really want him fighting.)

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02-19-2013, 12:13 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
I have no comment on the past Panthers regimes. But if you look at the DT rebuild of the hawks and the Lombardi rebuild of the kings, it holds true that there were a few years of mediocrity in the beginning. This is followed by a few years of failed playoff runs, which was followed by a cup. Its the process were in, so its not surprising to me that the team is gawd awful right now. If it didn't take so long, and wasn't so hard, everone would have a cup. Many teams try this type of a rebuild and fail. Other teams get stuck in mediocrity. I just hope we do our rebuild right, and really, we just have to trust that we got the right guy, DT, and that he will do it the right way. Assuming that happens, then we just need to not get unlucky.
Thanks for this post, finally a voice of reason. We need more posters like you.

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02-19-2013, 12:15 AM
  #57
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The budget argument only goes so far. When you spend that much money twice on a mediocre defenseman--which is an exaggeration in Jovo's case--you show a lack of ability when dealing with defense. And to contradict one's own argument: defense must be considered! Yes, and what great results such consideration has achieved! It makes no sense to argue for the losing side from the get-go. Obviously different actions by the GM would have--and still can--have a better result.

By the way, if the budget argument is correct, is the reason behind our incomplete team, then doesn't that mean we'll always have an incomplete (or, really, incompetent) team? Of course, that is, unless the team some day has owners more willing to spend (a few extra million). Perhaps there won't be so many empty seats in the arena then. I'm not informed on how the finances of an NHL franchise work, so if you happen to be in the know, do share. Is a losing team more profitable than a winning team for which you pay a bit more?

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02-19-2013, 12:15 AM
  #58
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Long term, it's better to get another blue chip prospect anyway. The worst thing we can do is be mediocre. That's how you never improve, especially for small budget teams.

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02-19-2013, 12:17 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
The budget argument only goes so far. When you spend that much money twice on a mediocre defenseman--which is an exaggeration in Jovo's case--you show a lack of ability when dealing with defense. And to contradict one's own argument: defense must be considered! Yes, and what great results such consideration has achieved! It makes no sense to argue for the losing side from the get-go. Obviously different actions by the GM would have--and still can--have a better result.

By the way, if the budget argument is correct, is the reason behind our incomplete team, then doesn't that mean we'll always have an incomplete (or, really, incompetent) team? Of course, that is, unless the team some day has owners more willing to spend (a few extra million). Perhaps there won't be so many empty seats in the arena then. I'm not informed on how the finances of an NHL franchise work, so if you happen to be in the know, do share. Is a losing team more profitable than a winning team for which you pay a bit more?
You make a huge assumption that we can sign star players or top line forwards. Kuba and Jovo signings are bad, get over it. Tallon has built one of the best prospect pools in the league. We're going to get more quality assets at the deadline and we'll probably have another big draft. Rome wasn't built in a day.

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02-19-2013, 12:21 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
I have no comment on the past Panthers regimes. But if you look at the DT rebuild of the hawks and the Lombardi rebuild of the kings, it holds true that there were a few years of mediocrity in the beginning. This is followed by a few years of failed playoff runs, which was followed by a cup. Its the process were in, so its not surprising to me that the team is gawd awful right now. If it didn't take so long, and wasn't so hard, everone would have a cup. Many teams try this type of a rebuild and fail. Other teams get stuck in mediocrity. I just hope we do our rebuild right, and really, we just have to trust that we got the right guy, DT, and that he will do it the right way. Assuming that happens, then we just need to not get unlucky.
I agree. Although I don't understand why Tallon doesn't do something to help us advance--we are going backwards. And there is no end to the awful things I could say about the Panthers of the past. Although I enjoyed the years when the Panthers were penalty kings.

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02-19-2013, 12:24 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
The budget argument only goes so far. When you spend that much money twice on a mediocre defenseman--which is an exaggeration in Jovo's case--you show a lack of ability when dealing with defense. And to contradict one's own argument: defense must be considered! Yes, and what great results such consideration has achieved! It makes no sense to argue for the losing side from the get-go. Obviously different actions by the GM would have--and still can--have a better result.
You said yourself in the GDT that Tallon made some good signings and trades. So ok, he made a couple bad signings with Jovo and Kuba. So now he is terrible and "is doing nothing to move this team forward?" Ok, he's not a perfect human being, that's been established. You need to see the gray area. Not everything is spectacular or terrible. If Tallon had more money to work with, he could have made the mistakes he's made and also covered over them with a big forward signing in free agency, like other teams' GMs do.

Quote:
By the way, if the budget argument is correct, is the reason behind our incomplete team, then doesn't that mean we'll always have an incomplete (or, really, incompetent) team? Of course, that is, unless the team some day has owners more willing to spend (a few extra million). Perhaps there won't be so many empty seats in the arena then. I'm not informed on how the finances of an NHL franchise work, so if you happen to be in the know, do share. Is a losing team more profitable than a winning team for which you pay a bit more?
A)Build a quality team through the draft that starts to make the playoffs consistently

B)With more playoff appearances and a winning team, more money will come in

C)When ownership feels the time is right, go out and trade for/sign a star forward in free agency

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02-19-2013, 12:26 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Long term, it's better to get another blue chip prospect anyway. The worst thing we can do is be mediocre. That's how you never improve, especially for small budget teams.
Precisely why I've been adamant for weeks about tanking.

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02-19-2013, 12:39 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
You make a huge assumption that we can sign star players or top line forwards. Kuba and Jovo signings are bad, get over it. Tallon has built one of the best prospect pools in the league. We're going to get more quality assets at the deadline and we'll probably have another big draft. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Are you going to make me a believer? I really don't understand the star player logic; if stars go to Carolina, why not Florida? Is our state really so unattractive? (Oh yes, they have better players: is that the reasoning behind the argument?)

That is a non sequitur: "Get over it!" It's a valid argument to which you have no valid response. Two bad defensive signings.

Let's hope the building of a competent team doesn't take as long to build as the Roman Empire. And you make a huge assumption when you count on winning a star through the draft--and then keeping him. Perhaps I see the same sort of logic being repeated year upon year--and failing. How many years is this supposed to take? The last few times it didn't work.

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02-19-2013, 12:58 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
Are you going to make me a believer? I really don't understand the star player logic; if stars go to Carolina, why not Florida? Is our state really so unattractive? (Oh yes, they have better players: is that the reasoning behind the argument?)

That is a non sequitur: "Get over it!" It's a valid argument to which you have no valid response. Two bad defensive signings.

Let's hope the building of a competent team doesn't take as long to build as the Roman Empire. And you make a huge assumption when you count on winning a star through the draft--and then keeping him. Perhaps I see the same sort of logic being repeated year upon year--and failing. How many years is this supposed to take? The last few times it didn't work.

Every organization makes bad signings. That's the response. Which is why you need to get over it. Kuba is signed for next season and that's it. Jovo may be bought out or retire. So yeah, get over it.

Tallon is doing something completely different. He's stockpiling talent and not rushing them. Guds went back to Juniors, Hubs went back to Juniors, Shore played a few years in college then last year in the AHL and started off this year in the AHL. Markstrom is still in the AHL. We've never done that before. We used to rush prospects into our lineup which is detrimental to most. If this was an old regime, all would have been playing at 18.

Most teams do draft their star players. And almost all keep them.

It will take at least two more seasons until we see if Tallon's plan has worked.

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02-19-2013, 01:04 AM
  #65
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There hasn't been any stars readily available at any time in the last year or so. Tallon can't just pick them up off trees.

DT is no perfect GM. He actually makes his fair share of mistakes. But he does do well too.

Right now this whole team seems to be out to lunch. I really think we need to trade Weiss ASAP. He's nothing to this team. Send him and some stuff to Colorado and get us O'Reilly. He's no answer to our #1 center spot but he plays a solid 2-way game and is basically a Weiss copy with more size but 8 years younger. If Weiss is hurt, then sit out. He sucks so much right now that he was dropped to the 4th lin (I'm almost sure) in his Panthers' career.

I trust Tallon. This franchise lacked stability for so long. No fan is happy with every single move their GM makes, but I trust him. Unfortunately we don't have the Toews/Kane/Sharp talent that he had in Chicago, so things don't seem to be going so well right now.

However, I do not want him to sit on this team. Make some moves and bring in some guys that will be part of the future. Ice a bunch of rookie I really don't care. Teams don't make the playoffs after starts like this, especially not ones that are so ****ing inconsistent it hurts.

It's painful right now though. After last season, things were looking great. As corny as it sounds, my heart is broken right now with this team. I had decent hopes for this season (not anything crazy, but similar season to last...contending for a playoff spot/division title) but we are nowhere near that level right now. I'm tired of analyzing this team and am slowly coming to terms with the fact that we are what we are this season.

All we can do is (once again as Panther fans) continue to look to the future and hope all these prospects pan out.

If Bjugstad, Grimaldi and co. all flop I don't know what I'll do.

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02-19-2013, 01:04 AM
  #66
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You got me there, Markstrom Rules. I do admit that Tallon made some very good moves last year. And he overpaid for a few guys too. But I find the signing of Kuba so repulsive that I can never forgive Dale Tallon. The day he did it, I knew something wasn't right.

And I wish your plan could work. If it did though, for Florida that is, I would be shocked. How many times have I heard of this building strategy? Then suddenly, where did Horton go? Bouwmeester? Oh, we suck anyway! Okay, start over! Next draft.

Again, I'm rooting for the draft theory, but I just can't believe. Didn't Toews and Kane start the same year? Yes, and that year we were only 3 points short of Chicago; we were one point short of the prior year. Then the next year we improved, after eliminating Jokinen. Then the year after that we got much worse, after eliminating Bouwmeester. So where did we go wrong? Oh yeah, wishful thinking. Then I must presume that the difference is Dale Tallon; he's going to get it right, unlike the others.

So, to summarize, based on the logic of team development, it's good that we suck?

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02-19-2013, 01:40 AM
  #67
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Okay, I know I'm carrying on with far too many arguments; but you all pretty much agree. So, I want to turn the argument to specifics. If you could, name the players whom Florida brought to the NHL too soon, as to prove your theory. Or, at least that theory. The "give it time" argument will of course take a lot of time.

I can't think of any player that Florida tried to push too soon. For instance, Anthony Stewart: would he have become a better player if he had spent more years in the minors or juniors or wherever? Bouwmeester was obviously not harmed; Luongo was not harmed; Horton was not harmed; . . . . You can offer up examples of players the Panthers messed up. Novo? He could never get around that last defenseman and get the shot off. Wasn't he supposed to be the next Pavel Bure?

Wait. Maybe Dadonov? But he's kicking ass in Russia now, strangely enough, playing on a line with Vaclav Nedorost--remember him? One of Dudley's boys, I think. Another Panthers alumni on Donbass HC is Clay Wilson. (Remember, the defenseman who scored 3 goals 2 assists in 15 games.)

Please son't think that I don't understand what you are talking about. I get how Chicago, Carolina, Pittsburgh, and so forth worked out, starting with drafted stars.

One guy who ruins all theories is Steve Yzerman. Starting the year he was drafted, Detroit made the playoffs every year but two, including after he left the team.

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02-19-2013, 07:27 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
You got me there, Markstrom Rules. I do admit that Tallon made some very good moves last year. And he overpaid for a few guys too. But I find the signing of Kuba so repulsive that I can never forgive Dale Tallon. The day he did it, I knew something wasn't right.

And I wish your plan could work. If it did though, for Florida that is, I would be shocked. How many times have I heard of this building strategy? Then suddenly, where did Horton go? Bouwmeester? Oh, we suck anyway! Okay, start over! Next draft.

Again, I'm rooting for the draft theory, but I just can't believe. Didn't Toews and Kane start the same year? Yes, and that year we were only 3 points short of Chicago; we were one point short of the prior year. Then the next year we improved, after eliminating Jokinen. Then the year after that we got much worse, after eliminating Bouwmeester. So where did we go wrong? Oh yeah, wishful thinking. Then I must presume that the difference is Dale Tallon; he's going to get it right, unlike the others.

So, to summarize, based on the logic of team development, it's good that we suck?
This team has NEVER had a GM like Tallon. Our minor league affiliate was a mess, our scouting department was a mess, and our top prospects would have a tough time cracking our current top 10 prospects. What did Tallon do? He came in and immediately improved our scouting department, and built one of the top prospect pools in the game. He got rid of anyone who did not want to be here (Horton) and built a team that was able to bring us our first division title in team history, plus break our decade long playoff drought. But all that goes to waste because he brought in Kuba?

This team is going to be built mostly through the draft, that is just how it is. You wont see any top free agents come in here any time soon. This team is better off staying the course that Tallon has set, rather than go with a quick fix, like the Thrashers did. Tallon did it before it Chicago, and is in the process of doing it again here in Florida. The pieces are coming along, and the way its going, adding a Mac/Drouin/Jones etc. to this team will put them over the top. The difference is Dale Tallon, which is quite evident.

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02-19-2013, 07:43 AM
  #69
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This team has NEVER had a GM like Tallon. Our minor league affiliate was a mess, our scouting department was a mess, and our top prospects would have a tough time cracking our current top 10 prospects. What did Tallon do? He came in and immediately improved our scouting department, and built one of the top prospect pools in the game. He got rid of anyone who did not want to be here (Horton) and built a team that was able to bring us our first division title in team history, plus break our decade long playoff drought. But all that goes to waste because he brought in Kuba?

This team is going to be built mostly through the draft, that is just how it is. You wont see any top free agents come in here any time soon. This team is better off staying the course that Tallon has set, rather than go with a quick fix, like the Thrashers did. Tallon did it before it Chicago, and is in the process of doing it again here in Florida. The pieces are coming along, and the way its going, adding a Mac/Drouin/Jones etc. to this team will put them over the top. The difference is Dale Tallon, which is quite evident.
Yep, well said, both you and MR.

You won't forgive him cause he brought in Kuba? That's an incredibly ridiculous statement, and the one problem with last season. Now everyone wants to veer from the plan to keep us a contender for the playoffs...but Tallon is building a Cup contender! He's not goin to veer from that. Thankfully.

The other issue, the biggest issue, was Cohen. A self imposed cap when it was unnecessary, constant impatience with GMs and coaches..and players. Getting in the way of trades, and leaving a bad taste in the mouths of guys who left. We now have an owner who's patient and understands the process. I'm a fan, we missed for over a decade, we're starving for more success, but try to be patient, too. It'll come, and it'll come consistently.

We can use a couple quick fixes, but nothing that'll hurt the future.

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02-19-2013, 07:53 AM
  #70
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Okay, I know I'm carrying on with far too many arguments; but you all pretty much agree. So, I want to turn the argument to specifics. If you could, name the players whom Florida brought to the NHL too soon, as to prove your theory. Or, at least that theory. The "give it time" argument will of course take a lot of time.

I can't think of any player that Florida tried to push too soon. For instance, Anthony Stewart: would he have become a better player if he had spent more years in the minors or juniors or wherever? Bouwmeester was obviously not harmed; Luongo was not harmed; Horton was not harmed; . . . . You can offer up examples of players the Panthers messed up. Novo? He could never get around that last defenseman and get the shot off. Wasn't he supposed to be the next Pavel Bure?

Wait. Maybe Dadonov? But he's kicking ass in Russia now, strangely enough, playing on a line with Vaclav Nedorost--remember him? One of Dudley's boys, I think. Another Panthers alumni on Donbass HC is Clay Wilson. (Remember, the defenseman who scored 3 goals 2 assists in 15 games.)

Please son't think that I don't understand what you are talking about. I get how Chicago, Carolina, Pittsburgh, and so forth worked out, starting with drafted stars.

One guy who ruins all theories is Steve Yzerman. Starting the year he was drafted, Detroit made the playoffs every year but two, including after he left the team.
Horton was ridiculously lazy, maye earning his time would've given him drive. Bouw lacked in the same areas he does now, he just has horse-like stamina, perhaps he could've produced more had he had time to hone his skills. Lou was already playing for the Isles.

I can't count or remember all the players that have been in and out of here, not gonna try.

Players in Euro leagues don't impress me. Great they're doing well there, doesn't mean it'll translate. Good for them, and how would they have done learning the game in the AHL? No crystal ball to say.

And sorry, but the Wings have been juggernauts, as just because some guys can step in and be superstars doesn't mean they all can. I realize that's redundant, but it apparently need to be said.

Trust Tallon, what else can you do? Especially with what he's done in a short time.

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02-19-2013, 08:48 AM
  #71
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I agree with the previous posters, if you are going to solely judge Tallon's body of work from a small segment of moves, Kuba signing and a few others, you are ignoring the fact that for the first time EVER we've got depth in the minors, juniors, hell even on our current roster.

The fact remains, the roster Tallon inherited and the talent as prospects was horrendous beyond belief. I can't take the argument either that because he had so many draft picks in high positions it was easy, because we've seen us have multiple high draft picks and Keenan and Dudley both make mistakes.


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02-19-2013, 09:15 AM
  #72
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I didn't say Clemmer was good, just that the goals he was letting in were not always his fault. And I have repeatedly said Kuli shows signs of being great but makes at least one major stupid decision a game.

What has Guds really done? Any big hits that changed the momentum? Great defensive plays? Notable offensive plays? I barely notice him out there. His game has been okay but I expect to see more out of him. Something. Hence, his play has been underwhelming.
What? IMO it's good that YOU barely notice him, but I watch him often. He DOESN'T do noticeably poor things like Kuli often does. Kuli has made poor turnovers in front of the net, Guds hasn't. They both tend to get caught out of position, but I don't see it as much with Gudbranson. How often does any player make game changing hits? Stevens did, he's rare. Erik has laid guys out consistently and seperated them from the puck, and I'm sure made them think twice when he's out there. Kuli has laid big hits in one game. I'll take Kuli's speed, of course, but that's about it.

Erik raised his level of play as the season progressed and it continued into the playoffs, Kuli regressed. Guds underwhelming? Sorry, no.

I compared the two because I simply don't see signs of greatness, I see a guy who is what he is. An many of the smartest posters here (not saying youre not one) see the same.

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02-19-2013, 09:52 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
Okay, I know I'm carrying on with far too many arguments; but you all pretty much agree. So, I want to turn the argument to specifics. If you could, name the players whom Florida brought to the NHL too soon, as to prove your theory. Or, at least that theory. The "give it time" argument will of course take a lot of time.

I can't think of any player that Florida tried to push too soon. For instance, Anthony Stewart: would he have become a better player if he had spent more years in the minors or juniors or wherever? Bouwmeester was obviously not harmed; Luongo was not harmed; Horton was not harmed; . . . . You can offer up examples of players the Panthers messed up. Novo? He could never get around that last defenseman and get the shot off. Wasn't he supposed to be the next Pavel Bure?

Wait. Maybe Dadonov? But he's kicking ass in Russia now, strangely enough, playing on a line with Vaclav Nedorost--remember him? One of Dudley's boys, I think. Another Panthers alumni on Donbass HC is Clay Wilson. (Remember, the defenseman who scored 3 goals 2 assists in 15 games.)

Please son't think that I don't understand what you are talking about. I get how Chicago, Carolina, Pittsburgh, and so forth worked out, starting with drafted stars.

One guy who ruins all theories is Steve Yzerman. Starting the year he was drafted, Detroit made the playoffs every year but two, including after he left the team.

First, We didn't draft Luongo. We traded for Luongo and Jokinen. We should have never drafted Bo and Horton! We should've drafted Staal and Nash, but in any event, we brought them in way to early as our "future star" players and I think it stunted their growth. Rumors had swirled that Bo wasn't happy about being drafted here in Fla, so maybe that's why he didn't develop into the next Lidstrom. They should've stayed down in the minors much like Huberdeau and Gudbranson did and let them gain experience instead of throwing them to the wolves. Dadanov was playing very well here, IMO, but s**t happens I guess and he didn't last.

I am as disappointed in this season as every other Panther fan, but I trust in Tallon 100%. He really has changed this teams outlook 10 fold, from top to bottom (although I wish we were able to get rid of Yormark) I don't think the Kuba signing was bad either, I just think Kuba isn't playing up to his abilities. When he was signed,he had similar stats to Garrison except that he had done them more than once. I am willing to give Tallon a pass because I get to watch the Huberdeau-Shore-Mueller line and I love it! When I look at Gudbranson,Huberdeau,Shore, and Mueller, that reminds me of what Tallon has done here and it does make me happy knowing these guys are here and are our future. Imagine what Huberdeau is going to look like in a few years, with some extra muscle and experience under his belt! Same with Gudbranson.. We'll have Markstrom in net, Bjugstad in the lineup. Petrovic on D... Hopefully these players turn out to be as big as we hope they will and I am sure Tallon would've brought in some good free agent talent as well.

I think as hard as it's going to be, we need to be patient with this team this year and not expect anything good. I think the fun stuff and good stuff will come next season. We'll get another great prospect (unless Tallon trades that high draft pick for a superstar) and we'll get more prospects in our system. Our youth will have a year of experience under their belts. Some dead weight will be shed. We'll be 100% Healthy (cross fingers) Markstrom will be up. We just have to be patient.

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02-19-2013, 09:52 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Lessthan900 View Post
Okay, I know I'm carrying on with far too many arguments; but you all pretty much agree. So, I want to turn the argument to specifics. If you could, name the players whom Florida brought to the NHL too soon, as to prove your theory. Or, at least that theory. The "give it time" argument will of course take a lot of time.

I can't think of any player that Florida tried to push too soon. For instance, Anthony Stewart: would he have become a better player if he had spent more years in the minors or juniors or wherever? Bouwmeester was obviously not harmed; Luongo was not harmed; Horton was not harmed; . . . . You can offer up examples of players the Panthers messed up. Novo? He could never get around that last defenseman and get the shot off. Wasn't he supposed to be the next Pavel Bure?

Wait. Maybe Dadonov? But he's kicking ass in Russia now, strangely enough, playing on a line with Vaclav Nedorost--remember him? One of Dudley's boys, I think. Another Panthers alumni on Donbass HC is Clay Wilson. (Remember, the defenseman who scored 3 goals 2 assists in 15 games.)

Please son't think that I don't understand what you are talking about. I get how Chicago, Carolina, Pittsburgh, and so forth worked out, starting with drafted stars.

One guy who ruins all theories is Steve Yzerman. Starting the year he was drafted, Detroit made the playoffs every year but two, including after he left the team.
I said MOST, not all. There will be some guys who at 18 are ready for the NHL. Most are not. Using a hall of fame player(outlier) is great way to not ruin any theory.

Weiss, definitely. Horton, very likely, his game was incomplete, still is. Kulikov could have used another year to work on his offensive game. Olesz to work on confidence in their offensive game. Those are off the top of my head. Other guys are not good or were never going to be good.

What does show that being patient works can be seen with Hubs who has 6 goals already, Shore who has been fantastic-AHL all star, and Gudbranson who although to me has been unremarkable this year is trending in the right direction. You can also take a look at a guy like Bjugstad who has shown YOY improvement and will be a big piece going forward. An old regime would have had Howden in the lineup because he definitely has NHL abilities(size and skating) but he's not an NHL ready player yet. You would also have seen Petrovic in the lineup this year, imo, but we're letting Petrovic work on his positioning and developing an offensive game.

The whole point of being patient with guys is fine tuning their skill set, work on certain aspects of their game that are more easily fixed playing against lesser competition, which they will eventually get down, and gain that ever so important confidence in their game.

Going forward, I believe we have a first pairing d-man in Kulikov in a couple of years(possibly #1), a potential first pairing guy in Guds, a #1 goalie in Markstrom, a first line winger in Hubs next year, a first line winger in Flash, a second line center in Shore, and second line winger in Mueller as significant pieces for the future that I'm very confident in. Biggest hole is a legit #1 center and a pure goal scorer. Hopefully the upcoming draft will fill that.

Looking down the road... We're getting another good piece for the top 6 in the draft. We have Bjugstad who has #1 center potential but is probably more of a #2 guy. Then we have guys like Knight, a guy who has shown YOY improvement and a soon to be Hobey Baker finalist who will slot in as a third line center in a year or two. Howden will also fill a top 9 role.

We have quality pieces. We need to patient. Tallon can hopefully supplement with free agency and since we'll have so many young guys, we might have some cap space to try to get a 6 million dollar forward, who knows.

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02-19-2013, 10:07 AM
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What? IMO it's good that YOU barely notice him, but I watch him often. He DOESN'T do noticeably poor things like Kuli often does. Kuli has made poor turnovers in front of the net, Guds hasn't. They both tend to get caught out of position, but I don't see it as much with Gudbranson. How often does any player make game changing hits? Stevens did, he's rare. Erik has laid guys out consistently and seperated them from the puck, and I'm sure made them think twice when he's out there. Kuli has laid big hits in one game. I'll take Kuli's speed, of course, but that's about it.

Erik raised his level of play as the season progressed and it continued into the playoffs, Kuli regressed. Guds underwhelming? Sorry, no.

I compared the two because I simply don't see signs of greatness, I see a guy who is what he is. An many of the smartest posters here (not saying youre not one) see the same.
I often listen to the opposing team's broadcasters and they're almost always impressed with Kulikov because most of the game he is impressive. He plays really well 95% of the game and then 5% makes a stupid mistake bad play. That's the type of thing that with proper coaching can be fixed. He's all over the ice, he's been very physical, and his d for the most part has been very good.

Kulikov had a bad playoffs last year but this year he's been one of our best d-man. He's somehow a +1 despite our terrible goal differential playing over 20 minutes a night, most nights. Kulikov is very good.

Look, I like Guds, I think he has first pairing potential in a few years. I simply think he's been nothing special so far this year. It's only been a handful of games for him and he's not even getting much ice time.

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