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Flames - Don't rebuild...reload

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:47 PM
  #51
TheHudlinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devonator View Post
The point is that he is declining and the Flames should have dealt him last year when his value was much higher......who is going to give up a tonne for a 35 year old player that is soon to be a free agent...

Horrible horrible asset management by the Flames and you guys are going to be irrelevant for years.....remember the young guns? Well you guys are the old guns .....ouch!!

Wonder when you guys will make the playoffs again?
Yep no one has ever given up alot for a 35 year old player, certainly not a defenseman named Pronger

I don't disagree the Flames should move Iginla, but your constant shots at the team and its fans are uncalled for, it makes you appear immature.

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:47 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
The Flames need to rebuild. I don't think the Flames will get that kind of return for Kiprusoff or Bouwmeester.

I don't think there's a team in contention looking for a starting goalie, and non playoff teams won't be looking to add a 36 year old starting goalie, especially at the cost of a decent roster player, good prospect and a 1st. And if there's a team that's a goalie away from contending, I'm sure Luongo will be a higher priority.

I'm not sure about Bouwmeester, I haven't really seen him play much, but I have a good enough idea that he's not worth a top prospect, decent roster player and a 1st.

I do think Iginla can get you a similar return, maybe not what you want, but I can see him going for a 1st and a top prospect.
There might be two teams in play-off contention that could be looking. Not that they are good fits for Kipper, but Toronto and Edmonton. I can't see Calgary trading him to Edmonton in the first place. I know they have an experienced guy in Khabibulin, but Kipper is better. Kipper could be a short term answer for Toronto, if it wants to go that route and remains in contention.

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:50 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Yep no one has ever given up alot for a 35 year old player, certainly not a defenseman named Pronger

I don't disagree the Flames should move Iginla, but your constant shots at the team and its fans are uncalled for, it makes you appear immature.
Your post makes no sense......Pronger was still elite when the Flyers traded for him...are you honestly trying to say Iggy is still elite???

I doubt it....yes he is better then he is playing right now...but he is clearly not the star he once was.....you should get a first for him and a mid prospect....that would be fair!

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02-18-2013, 10:54 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devonator View Post
Your post makes no sense......Pronger was still elite when the Flyers traded for him...are you honestly trying to say Iggy is still elite???

I doubt it....yes he is better then he is playing right now...but he is clearly not the star he once was.....you should get a first for him and a mid prospect....that would be fair!
Depends on your definition of elite, he is still a top 10 RW and a top 30 forward. I think he could very easily get a first and a good prospect maybe more depending on if there is a bidding war.

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02-18-2013, 10:57 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jray42 View Post
The Flames are in the worst spot of any team in the NHL right now, and have been for some time. You guys really don't have anything in terms of a prospect pool outside of Baertschi/Jankowski, and no great young talent on the NHL roster.
With all due respect, most people from the East don't really know crap about the Flames. They think that Glencross is worth a 2nd round pick, that Bouwmeester is terrible, and that Backlund and Brodie aren't good players. If you don't mention those two guys when talking about Calgary's young talent then you're proving that you don't know what you're talking about.

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02-18-2013, 11:03 PM
  #56
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Kipper would fetch a similar return to Roli in '06. Oilers sent a 1st and 3rd to Minny for a 36 year old goaltender, at the time the Oil were battling for a playoff spot. Seems like fair value for Kipperl

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02-18-2013, 11:06 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by jgoods14 View Post
Kipper would fetch a similar return to Roli in '06. Oilers sent a 1st and 3rd to Minny for a 36 year old goaltender, at the time the Oil were battling for a playoff spot. Seems like fair value for Kipperl
I think this is a very valid point. But in regards to bouw, unless Calgary agrees to eat some cap room, I don't believe the return will be nearly as much as the op thinks it will be.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Wow, if this is what Flames fans think Kipper is worth, I look forward to their valuations of Luongo, who is better, younger, and signed to a cap-friendly contract.

If the OP is right, the Canucks are going to get a ton.

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02-18-2013, 11:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
The Flames need to rebuild. I don't think the Flames will get that kind of return for Kiprusoff or Bouwmeester.

I don't think there's a team in contention looking for a starting goalie, and non playoff teams won't be looking to add a 36 year old starting goalie, especially at the cost of a decent roster player, good prospect and a 1st. And if there's a team that's a goalie away from contending, I'm sure Luongo will be a higher priority.

I'm not sure about Bouwmeester, I haven't really seen him play much, but I have a good enough idea that he's not worth a top prospect, decent roster player and a 1st.

I do think Iginla can get you a similar return, maybe not what you want, but I can see him going for a 1st and a top prospect.
If you consider Tampa a team in contention then you could make the case that they'd take on an old goalie and slowly phase Lindback in.

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02-18-2013, 11:19 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
Wow, if this is what Flames fans think Kipper is worth, I look forward to their valuations of Luongo, who is better, younger, and signed to a cap-friendly contract.

If the OP is right, the Canucks are going to get a ton.
No Flame fan truly believes that and Luo's contract is not any better than Kippers

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:25 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by jgoods14 View Post
Kipper would fetch a similar return to Roli in '06. Oilers sent a 1st and 3rd to Minny for a 36 year old goaltender, at the time the Oil were battling for a playoff spot. Seems like fair value for Kipperl
Roloson's cap hit wasn't nearly as big as Kipper's is (Even with a cap nearly double now) and the salary cap wasn't already slated to go down by $6M at that time.

Plus Roloson was playing much better then than Kipper is now.

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02-18-2013, 11:26 PM
  #62
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I don't think you will ever see a full-blown rebuild in Calgary.

They are 'quietly' rebuilding. Their UFA's have all been players that can be productive for the next 5 years. They have stopped trying to 'win-now' by trading away youth for proven players. They have gotten MUCH younger.

Remember when the Flames' 'core' consisted of a lot of old guys? Well, that has been going down.

Slowly (but surely) the Flames are bringing in guys like Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi and to a lesser extent - Horak. Gio, Wideman, Bouwmeester and Brodie are the 'core' for defencemen now.

The prospect pool is MUCH improved, but still needs MUCH more improvement, yes. Drafting has improved. Development has improved. Flames have been rebuilding their hockey ops department for years now (starting under Darryl Sutter as GM). They are only starting to see return on investment there, but it is coming slowly.

What will the Flames do between now and the trade deadline?
You will NOT see them trade away picks/prospects for older vets to 'win now' if they are in a playoff spot, or close.

If the Flames are out of a playoff spot, you will see Iginla moved (he is not re-signed for a reason). You might see additional pieces like Stempniak, or one of either Giordano or Bouwmeester. Kipper is a 'maybe', but I personally don't think so unless someone makes a great offer - only a season ending injury to a goalie to a team that is solidly labeled a 'contender' would only really make sense. He just isn't worth much to a non-playoff team, and every other team probably has a good goalie that is either better than Kipper, or at the very least, it isn't enough of a weakness to warrant addressing.

These are the only Flames that might be dealt if they are definitely out of a playoff spot (that have at least 'decent' value):

Iginla
Tanguay
Cammalleri
Kipper
Stempniak

Glencross has a NTC - he left a lot of money on the table to stay in Calgary (has a ranch, always participates in the Stampede, etc). He doesn't want to move - so if he does, he will ask. Flames would not even ask him.

What I personally see happening is the Flames coming up short this year, and trading a few of their vets (including Iginla) before the trading deadline. What you will NOT see is a full-blown 'traditional' rebuild, and what you will definitely not see is the Flames making 'win-now' moves that contenders do trading away futures for 'now players'.

Flames may indeed end up finishing amongst the worst, but I don't think you will see them stay there too long. They are a relatively deep team, but just not enough game-breakers to be successful consistently enough - therefore they are a bubble team.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:31 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Roloson's cap hit wasn't nearly as big as Kipper's is (Even with a cap nearly double now) and the salary cap wasn't already slated to go down by $6M at that time.

Plus Roloson was playing much better then than Kipper is now.
Roloson was 5.12% of his teams cap, Kippers is 9% and everyone knows Kipper starts slow, and Roloson had average numbers when traded Kipper was a top 10 goalie last year the value is about the same.

Not to mention Rolson put up average numbers in Edmonton and was given a 3 year deal worth 8% of his teams cap hit.

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02-18-2013, 11:34 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Roloson was 5.12% of his teams cap, Kippers is 9% and everyone knows Kipper starts slow, and Roloson had average numbers when traded Kipper was a top 10 goalie last year the value is about the same.

Not to mention Rolson put up average numbers in Edmonton and was given a 3 year deal worth 8% of his teams cap hit.
Makes up roughly a $2.6M difference under next year's $64.3M cap.

Not a small amount.

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02-18-2013, 11:36 PM
  #65
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I mean, isn't this what the Flames have been doing for the past several years? (retooling and not rebuilding).

How has that worked out to this point?

I think that the Flames have some solid pieces to start the rebuild from but that they should definitely rebuild.

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02-18-2013, 11:38 PM
  #66
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Which teams are going to give up their first rounder and a good/great prospect for a forward with one goal and a goalie with an .870 SV%? These guys were clearly elite players at one time but now? older and declining.

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02-18-2013, 11:43 PM
  #67
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This is serious over value of your players.

You arent going to get 3 1st for these players.

Kip... you can get a young player/decent prospect and/or a pick no higher than 2nd ...but lower based on the prospect quality.


Bow...because of his high salary left you are going to get seriously penalized in trade value so you arent going to get anywhere near that much without absorbing a significant amount of his salary.

Igin....he would return a conditional possible #1 pick in 2014 if he were to resign with the club that acquires him. For him as a rental...it would be for a younger player but that is about it.

Had Calgary traded Iginila and Kip about 3-4 years ago when the problems have happened with the club. He could have returned alot more than he could now.

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02-18-2013, 11:44 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Makes up roughly a $2.6M difference under next year's $64.3M cap.

Not a small amount.
Like I said with very average numbers he was given a contract at 8% so it can't be that big of deal.

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02-18-2013, 11:52 PM
  #69
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With all due respect, most people from the East don't really know crap about the Flames. They think that Glencross is worth a 2nd round pick, that Bouwmeester is terrible, and that Backlund and Brodie aren't good players. If you don't mention those two guys when talking about Calgary's young talent then you're proving that you don't know what you're talking about.
Here is the problem with the Flames rebuild going forward with their current prospect pool and young player depth. With the exception of Sven, there isn't any other top tier talent. Reinhart will be a solid NHLer, but I see him as more of a 2nd/3rd line tweener. He could be an important player, but not a top line player. Gaudreau is an offensive talent playing with kids, but a 5'6" player has a real high bust potential. Schroeder is the all time leading scorer for the USA in WJC, but it's taken him 5 years to make the NHL and he has size on Gaudreau -it's not impossible but I don't see much of an NHL career for him. Jankowski is a definite boom/bust prospect, but by the time anyone knows which, Iggy and Kipper will be long gone. Horak has potential, but he's in that not-quite-there-yet category and he's got to prove he can be a full time NHLer. Ferland is intriguing, great junior scorer, slow start in pro hockey but he's still young. Arnold I like a lot, but I see him as a 3rd line C nothing more. Sieloff could be a player but he's a stay-at-home dman who's 3 years away from cracking the NHL and will probably be a bottom pairing/PK type player. Brossoit has a lot of skill but goalies are tough to predict and he's a Kipper replacement, who won't be as good as Kipper for quite a few years. Ramage - stay at home guy if he makes it, Wotherspoon - big, some mobility issues, but a few years away from the NHL if he makes it. Granlund - 2nd line potential, but could bust just as easily.

So basically yes - the Flames have some young guys who could step in but the high end talent isn't there. If you remove Iggy and Kipper, there isn't the sure-fire prospects there to step in and fill the 1st line/ top pairing role that the Flames need. A bunch of 4,5,6 dmen and bottom 6 forwards aren't going to make the flames a legit contender. The Flames need more talent in there prospect pool.

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02-18-2013, 11:53 PM
  #70
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I don't think you will ever see a full-blown rebuild in Calgary.

They are 'quietly' rebuilding. Their UFA's have all been players that can be productive for the next 5 years. They have stopped trying to 'win-now' by trading away youth for proven players. They have gotten MUCH younger.

Remember when the Flames' 'core' consisted of a lot of old guys? Well, that has been going down.

Slowly (but surely) the Flames are bringing in guys like Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi and to a lesser extent - Horak. Gio, Wideman, Bouwmeester and Brodie are the 'core' for defencemen now.

The prospect pool is MUCH improved, but still needs MUCH more improvement, yes. Drafting has improved. Development has improved. Flames have been rebuilding their hockey ops department for years now (starting under Darryl Sutter as GM). They are only starting to see return on investment there, but it is coming slowly.

What will the Flames do between now and the trade deadline?
You will NOT see them trade away picks/prospects for older vets to 'win now' if they are in a playoff spot, or close.

If the Flames are out of a playoff spot, you will see Iginla moved (he is not re-signed for a reason). You might see additional pieces like Stempniak, or one of either Giordano or Bouwmeester. Kipper is a 'maybe', but I personally don't think so unless someone makes a great offer - only a season ending injury to a goalie to a team that is solidly labeled a 'contender' would only really make sense. He just isn't worth much to a non-playoff team, and every other team probably has a good goalie that is either better than Kipper, or at the very least, it isn't enough of a weakness to warrant addressing.

These are the only Flames that might be dealt if they are definitely out of a playoff spot (that have at least 'decent' value):

Iginla
Tanguay
Cammalleri
Kipper
Stempniak

Glencross has a NTC - he left a lot of money on the table to stay in Calgary (has a ranch, always participates in the Stampede, etc). He doesn't want to move - so if he does, he will ask. Flames would not even ask him.

What I personally see happening is the Flames coming up short this year, and trading a few of their vets (including Iginla) before the trading deadline. What you will NOT see is a full-blown 'traditional' rebuild, and what you will definitely not see is the Flames making 'win-now' moves that contenders do trading away futures for 'now players'.

Flames may indeed end up finishing amongst the worst, but I don't think you will see them stay there too long. They are a relatively deep team, but just not enough game-breakers to be successful consistently enough - therefore they are a bubble team.
Doing that would constitute a full out rebuild. Plus, there's not near enough talent in the system or on the team that will prevent the Flames from finishing in the lottery for a good three or four years after Iginla and Kipper move on. Trading Cammalleri and Tanguay will only accelerate that.

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02-18-2013, 11:55 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Like I said with very average numbers he was given a contract at 8% so it can't be that big of deal.
Considering this has nothing to do with the contracts when they were signed and everything to do with the contracts at the point they were (or proposed to be in Kipper's case) traded, your 8% point is irrelevant.

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02-18-2013, 11:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Considering this has nothing to do with the contracts when they were signed and everything to do with the contracts at the point they were (or proposed to be in Kipper's case) traded, your 8% point is irrelevant.
About as relevant as saying 5 games decreases Kippers value significantly

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02-18-2013, 11:58 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
About as relevant as saying 5 games decreases Kippers value significantly
Until he starts playing better it does.

Or maybe teams stop looking at the fact that a guy is 36 years old with his play appearing to decline and just consider it an anomaly.

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02-18-2013, 11:59 PM
  #74
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what would flames fans want from anaheim for iginla if they were to move him? he'd be great w/getzlaf and perry

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02-19-2013, 12:01 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Until he starts playing better it does.

Or maybe teams stop looking at the fact that a guy is 36 years old with his play appearing to decline and just consider it an anomaly.
Declining now, after his season last year, seems like one of the biggest drop offs ever.

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