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Old
02-19-2013, 12:16 AM
  #76
damacles1156
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
No, sorry, but you are the one who just doesn't get it. As TS stated, we are built from the goalie out...which means the broken link in all of this is the defense...which moves the puck up to...repeat with me now...our forwards! Yes, that's it!

Hockey 101 is now in session to those who...who just don't get it.
Not to mention that the Forwards are having to come real deep into the D zone to break the puck out.

That slows the entire team down. Just watch how deep guys like Gagne and Williams are playing.

Sometimes Gagne ends up in front or behind Quick....That's a Winger folks.


It happens cause the D is very young and inexperienced.

With Mitchell, Greene , A-Mart. In the lineup that doesn't have to happen.

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02-19-2013, 12:17 AM
  #77
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No, sorry, but you are the one who just doesn't get it. As TS stated, we are built from the goalie out...which means the broken link in all of this is the defense...which moves the puck up to...repeat with me now...our forwards! Yes, that's it!

Hockey 101 is now in session to those who...who just don't get it.
Lol so basically you are saying its the "Defense". So you are this calm and collect when we basically have 2 men who can be out of for the season. You are contradicting yourself.

Its not the Defense only, its not the link, we can be in high scoring games and lose, but we aren't we are barely scoring, so let me ask you since you think its the "defense" then how the hell will we ever bounce back with 2 guys who are not even close to playing. Maybe you should think before you talk man. For someone whos holding the balls of the defense with your fist claiming its all them, you sure seem pretty chill about the fact we have no one that can replace them.

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02-19-2013, 12:19 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
Lol so basically you are saying its the "Defense". So you are this calm and collect when we basically have 2 men who can be out of for the season. You are contradicting yourself.

Its not the Defense only, its not the link, we can be in high scoring games and lose, but we aren't we are barely scoring, so let me ask you since you think its the "defense" then how the hell will we ever bounce back with 2 guys who are not even close to playing. Maybe you should think before you talk man. For someone whos holding the balls of the defense with your fist claiming its all them, you sure seem pretty chill about the fact we have no one that can replace them.
I'm pretty chill because I've been through this season after season as a fan, and one just has to have patience to get our guys back, that's all.

It will happen soon enough.

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02-19-2013, 12:20 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Not to mention that the Forwards are having to come real deep into the D zone to break the puck out.

That slows the entire team down. Just watch how deep guys like Gagne and Williams are playing.

Sometimes Gagne ends up in front or behind Quick....That's a Winger folks.


It happens cause the D is very young and inexperienced.

With Mitchell, Greene , A-Mart. In the lineup that doesn't have to happen.
Good points, this is lesson 102 to the guy above you who just doesn't get it.

Hope he passes 101 first, tho.

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02-19-2013, 12:22 AM
  #80
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I'm pretty chill because I've been through this season after season as a fan, and one just has to have patience to get our guys back, that's all.

It will happen soon enough.
Greene will be lucky to be back before playoffs and Mitchell isn't even skating. Even if they are the saviors, what is soon to you?

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02-19-2013, 12:28 AM
  #81
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Greene will be lucky to be back before playoffs and Mitchell isn't even skating. Even if they are the saviors, what is soon to you?

People have to accept the fact that , The Kings may not make the playoff's with the amount of injuries this year.

It happens, Chicago looked awful last year toward the end of the season+ playoff's. Why was that, Injuries....

Beat up back end, Toews was not 100% Kieth was a shell ETC..

Now Chicago looks unbeatable again. Well they are 100% healthy in the correct areas.

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02-19-2013, 12:29 AM
  #82
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Whatever dude you are clueless. Losing our defensive guys will lead to breakdowns in the defensive zone and stop a few breakouts but please to sit there like you know it all cause you don't.

Even with Mitchell and Greene this team did not score on the rush much as they get very few odd man rushes.

Thanks for The hockey 101 lesson, the class was as good as Lewis' goals this year.
I am sorry winger but if that is what you think our D does and can't see that our entire system is predicated by the defencive play of our entire team then you are missing the mechanics of how the Kings play and how we have played to win the cup. You are also missing the wrinkles to the system that DS put in place.

Our D owes its prowess in its own end to the checking system (low D rotation cycle of our forwards allows for our D to join in a 4-1-G or 3-2-G rotation below the dots which not only allows for us to always have a player ready to break out of our zone but also allows coverage and separation in front of the net).

That said, our D's job in its own end in so far as moving the puck up the ice or clearing the zone in a manner that either allows time for our forwards to establish a clear exit from our zone and into the neutral then O zone is only part of their importance to our overall offence.

Our system relies largely on the ability to slow our opponents while picking key gaps for our players to find speed into open pockets. Without going all into X's and O's DS uses a system that a coach that I used to play for developed years ago and was perfected by a few coaches along the way (see NJ and Det's successes for examples).

So I guess what I am saying is that our D is a system and missing the players that we are missing isn't as simple as just plugging in another similar player and moving on. I mean, these are individual players with individual talents and each having to learn a specific system (which takes time and practice to learn, two things that our newest players haven't received) that is difficult to do.

If it were a matter of just putting in a stay at home D where we are missing a stay at home D then everyone would be perfectly equal every year. That just isn't the case.

Ron is right here, there is allot more going on then you seem to think winger. I apologize if I am making assumptions about your position here but I can only base my response on what you have said. I look forward to learning where I am missing out on your position.

That said, Ron and I don't always agree but the guy knows his hockey (though we do agree on many things) cold. I am not saying you don't, just that Ron does and I think he is very right here.

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02-19-2013, 12:29 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
I'm pretty chill because I've been through this season after season as a fan, and one just has to have patience to get our guys back, that's all.

It will happen soon enough.
You must be more "delusional" than me to think our guys would be anywhere near ready to make an impact on our team if we keep this same crap up. mitchell and greene are probably out for the rest of the season. if not most of it, which isn't good enough.

It's pretty scary when your defense makes your star studded top 6 completely inept.

Kind of scary to think that this system makes our players so dependent on the defense.
One would think many of these good players would know how to start a rush themselves.

Suggest we should adjust our play and make our offense more responsible for creating plays because our defense for now and most likely the rest of the season wont be the same. Time to make adjustments and put more responsibility on the forwards.

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02-19-2013, 12:31 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am sorry winger but if that is what you think our D does and can't see that our entire system is predicated by the defencive play of our entire team then you are missing the mechanics of how the Kings play and how we have played to win the cup. You are also missing the wrinkles to the system that DS put in place.

Our D owes its prowess in its own end to the checking system (low D rotation cycle of our forwards allows for our D to join in a 4-1-G or 3-2-G rotation below the dots which not only allows for us to always have a player ready to break out of our zone but also allows coverage and separation in front of the net).

That said, our D's job in its own end in so far as moving the puck up the ice or clearing the zone in a manner that either allows time for our forwards to establish a clear exit from our zone and into the neutral then O zone is only part of their importance to our overall offence.

Our system relies largely on the ability to slow our opponents while picking key gaps for our players to find speed into open pockets. Without going all into X's and O's DS uses a system that a coach that I used to play for developed years ago and was perfected by a few coaches along the way (see NJ and Det's successes for examples).

So I guess what I am saying is that our D is a system and missing the players that we are missing isn't as simple as just plugging in another similar player and moving on. I mean, these are individual players with individual talents and each having to learn a specific system (which takes time and practice to learn, two things that our newest players haven't received) that is difficult to do.

If it were a matter of just putting in a stay at home D where we are missing a stay at home D then everyone would be perfectly equal every year. That just isn't the case.

Ron is right here, there is allot more going on then you seem to think winger. I apologize if I am making assumptions about your position here but I can only base my response on what you have said. I look forward to learning where I am missing out on your position.

That said, Ron and I don't always agree but the guy knows his hockey (though we do agree on many things) cold. I am not saying you don't, just that Ron does and I think he is very right here.
Bingo.


Green and Mitchell combined have over 1000 NHL games under their
belt.

No AHL call up or Plug(waiver fodder) is going to replace that. It's not going to happen.

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02-19-2013, 12:33 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
People have to accept the fact that , The Kings may not make the playoff's with the amount of injuries this year.

It happens, Chicago looked awful last year toward the end of the season+ playoff's. Why was that, Injuries....

Beat up back end, Toews was not 100% Kieth was a shell ETC..

Now Chicago looks unbeatable again. Well they are 100% healthy in the correct areas.
I agree with what you are saying. I think that it isn't as much of a lock that we will make it again this year as I would like it to be and our injuries are certainly holding us back so far.

That said I still believe that we will find a way to win and to get back to the playoffs and that isn't only do to faith, it is because of what I am seeing on the ice as well.

You may be right in the end but if it ends up with injuries keeping us out then if that happens I know that it will only happen after every possible thing that could be done has been done to see us back competing for the cup and that it will only be because we couldn't find the right fix(es) to get us there.

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02-19-2013, 12:33 AM
  #86
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You must be more "delusional" than me to think our guys would be anywhere near ready to make an impact on our team if we keep this same crap up. mitchell and greene are probably out for the rest of the season. if not most of it, which isn't good enough.

It's pretty scary when your defense makes your star studded top 6 completely inept.

Kind of scary to think that this system makes our players so dependent on the defense.
One would think many of these good players would know how to start a rush themselves.

Suggest we should adjust our play and make our offense more responsible for creating plays because our defense for now and most likely the rest of the season wont be the same. Time to make adjustments and put more responsibility on the forwards.
That is a process that has already started, look how deep the Wingers play now.

It doesn't happen over night. But expect the Kings to be a slower team because of it.

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02-19-2013, 12:36 AM
  #87
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I agree with what you are saying. I think that it isn't as much of a lock that we will make it again this year as I would like it to be and our injuries are certainly holding us back so far.

That said I still believe that we will find a way to win and to get back to the playoffs and that isn't only do to faith, it is because of what I am seeing on the ice as well.

You may be right in the end but if it ends up with injuries keeping us out then if that happens I know that it will only happen after every possible thing that could be done has been done to see us back competing for the cup and that it will only be because we couldn't find the right fix(es) to get us there.
There is nothing wrong with it ether, it happens.

Very few teams over come injuries to Key players.

No matter how much people try to marginalize Mitchell , Green ETC.

This Kings team is built for the Goal out....

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02-19-2013, 12:36 AM
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That is a process that has already started, look how deep the Wingers play now.

It doesn't happen over night. But expect the Kings to be a slower team because of it.
Yep^.

If I could only figure out how to say as much as you do with as few words I think everyone including myself would be allot happier around here.

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02-19-2013, 12:37 AM
  #89
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That is a process that has already started, look how deep the Wingers play now.

It doesn't happen over night. But expect the Kings to be a slower team because of it.
Now tell me, do you see any of our forwards even giving effort?

Are they skating around for the puck, are they buzzing. Why is no one shooting if they are deeper?

There's a difference between effort and having nothing to show for it from the offense
And no Effort and having nothing to show for it.

We are the second. We aren't doing anything at all. No one is shooting.


Lastly, we can argue all we want but my perspective won't change and neither will yours. I just think the same team in the regular season offensively with mitchell and greene still couldn't score.

And this is the same team im seeing again, just without the 2 players. We have streaky inconsistent players, Forwards to be exact.

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02-19-2013, 12:41 AM
  #90
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Now tell me, do you see any of our forwards even giving effort?

Are they skating around for the puck, are they buzzing. Why is no one shooting if they are deeper?

Exactly. Its the offense.
I am talking about the D zone. When your wingers have to play so deep, that they are basically Defenseman.

Your overall team speed suffers, also you are slow to get the puck out of your zone. It's all connected, the puck moves faster than players do.

The Kings Offense is not existent, cause Four of your player on the Ice are basically Defenders.

That happens cause the Kings D is very young, and very inexperienced.

The offense woes of last year were due to confidence issues. Also the Kings were just too robotic last year, way too predictable.

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02-19-2013, 12:42 AM
  #91
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Good points, this is lesson 102 to the guy above you who just doesn't get it.

Hope he passes 101 first, tho.
Wow you are something else.....

Nothing that can be said will help you understand your viewpoint isn't the only one. Can't compete with someone who is use to sucking for 50 years, with the viewpoint of "just be patient".

Yes, the forwards are coming back deeper. This would be a huge factor if they were not getting the rushes up the ice they usually could score on. The Kings very rarely ever get odd man rushes, even last year. The Kings lead or are near the top of the league in puck possession. They are use to having 5 defenders in front of them even with Mitchell and Greene.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that there are several players playing below what they are capable of. Instead you would rather sit here and defend them saying oh, they will be better once Mitchell and Greene come back.

Speaking of suggesting passing hockey 101, perhaps you would want to give the same class to Sutter himself since you obviously know more than he does:

"I think what is more significant, is being at the quarter pole is the fact that we have guys with zero goals at the quarter pole. I dont even think Id be in the lineup if I had zero goals at the quarter pole."

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02-19-2013, 12:42 AM
  #92
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I am talking about the D zone. When your wingers have to play so deep, that they are basically Defenseman.

Your overall team speed suffers, also you are slow to get the puck out of your zone. It's all connected, the puck moves faster than players do.

The Kings Offense is not existent, cause Four of your player on the Ice are basically Defenders.
Then instead of playing deep in our zone and still getting scored on, why dont we try to score more than them. Our Defense isn't gonna get any better.

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02-19-2013, 12:45 AM
  #93
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Then instead of playing deep in our zone and still getting scored on, why dont we try to score more than them. Our Defense isn't gonna get any better.
Coaches lose Jobs for what you are suggesting...

And GM's get fired.

What Coach has been employed the Longest....Barry Trots, for his boring simple hockey(take care of your own end first).

NSH will make the playoff's again this year, with a subpar talented team, and the most boring hockey on earth.

The Kings are also not built to play some foot race game.

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02-19-2013, 12:48 AM
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I am talking about the D zone. When your wingers have to play so deep, that they are basically Defenseman.

Your overall team speed suffers, also you are slow to get the puck out of your zone. It's all connected, the puck moves faster than players do.

The Kings Offense is not existent, cause Four of your player on the Ice are basically Defenders.
There was no more notable example of that than against Chicago. Against Columbus and St. Louis this never had to happen because their team speed and top forward play isn't so great. There's just a few things that need to be looked at to understand why we're struggling. It isn't line combos, it isn't lack of talent up front. It's because the distance between defense and attack is minimal. Forwards are not supposed to have to go to the faceoff circles or below to go get the puck.

What are our forwards supposed to do? Expecting three guys to skate from the faceoff dots in our zone into the oppositions defensive zone and put on pressure to score goals, I'm sorry but that isn't going to happen. There hasn't been a single breakout offensive performer this season for a reason. Everyone is below PPG pace for a reason. The only line we've had that looked good was one with two guys comfortable carrying the puck the whole way up the ice (Clifford-Carter-Williams).


We are the best breakout passing team in the league at full strength. We're not at full strength. We will probably lose more games as a result of turnovers in the neutral or defensive zone. That's just life, nobody is going to change it. **** happens. What we really need is better passing from our defensemen because lots of these rushes forward are being turned into cycling sessions when they should be turning into attacks with speed.

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02-19-2013, 12:51 AM
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There was no more notable example of that than against Chicago. Against Columbus and St. Louis this never had to happen because their team speed and top forward play isn't so great. There's just a few things that need to be looked at to understand why we're struggling. It isn't line combos, it isn't lack of talent up front. It's because the distance between defense and attack is minimal. Forwards are not supposed to have to go to the faceoff circles or below to go get the puck.

What are our forwards supposed to do? Expecting three guys to skate from the faceoff dots in our zone into the oppositions defensive zone and put on pressure to score goals, I'm sorry but that isn't going to happen. There hasn't been a single breakout offensive performer this season for a reason. Everyone is below PPG pace for a reason. The only line we've had that looked good was one with two guys comfortable carrying the puck the whole way up the ice (Clifford-Carter-Williams).


We are the best breakout passing team in the league at full strength. We're not at full strength. We will probably lose more games as a result of turnovers in the neutral or defensive zone. That's just life, nobody is going to change it. **** happens.
Jesus at least someone else see's exactly what I am seeing.

I am sure Sutter and Lombardi are seeing the same thing.

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02-19-2013, 12:52 AM
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Also (might as well not edit the post now), when the team loses as many faceoffs to the top line guy as they did on Sunday, it would be a miracle to win. That whole first period was faceoff win for Chicago, repeat, then our defensemen getting trapped in our DZ because they couldn't pass their way out and Chicago was getting tons of scoring chances.

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02-19-2013, 12:55 AM
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Also (might as well not edit the post now), when the team loses as many faceoffs to the top line guy as they did on Sunday, it would be a miracle to win. That whole first period was faceoff win for Chicago, repeat, then our defensemen getting trapped in our DZ because they couldn't pass their way out and Chicago was getting tons of scoring chances.
Toews was 13 of 14 through two periods. Bolland and Toews have made everyone they play ....their bit%%ch


You win a lot of Hockey games when your Centers are playing like that.

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02-19-2013, 01:01 AM
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Also (might as well not edit the post now), when the team loses as many faceoffs to the top line guy as they did on Sunday, it would be a miracle to win. That whole first period was faceoff win for Chicago, repeat, then our defensemen getting trapped in our DZ because they couldn't pass their way out and Chicago was getting tons of scoring chances.
It's not just the Chicago game that I'm personally harping on. It's not even the losses. It's the lack of production by over HALF of the forwards dressed each night. Even if the Kings get shutout, at least create SOMETHING on offense. There has been literally 0 offense from 7-8 of our forwards most of the season. That, at least for me, is what has me frustrated with this team. It seems if Carter isn't scoring, neither are the Kings.

Just to put it into perspective, we have guys getting 16+ minutes of ice time a game that would project into less than 20 points in a full year. That is just dismal.

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02-19-2013, 01:01 AM
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Did not read all 4 pages but I think I saw the common opinion, why King and Clifford?

I'm going against the stream here. Clifford was is an energyplayer creating things and Kopi seemed to play a little better when Clifford joined(last period), Kopi needs that kind of catalyst player. Actually Clifford is doing what Brown was supposed to do when talking physical play .

King always seems to create turnovers and he is much better on holding the puck then Penner and he is more mobile aswell, so I like the idea of him gather the puck feed it to Carter, Carter scores. So I want to give this comb. a try.

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02-19-2013, 01:08 AM
  #100
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It's not just the Chicago game that I'm personally harping on. It's not even the losses. It's the lack of production by over HALF of the forwards dressed each night. Even if the Kings get shutout, at least create SOMETHING on offense. There has been literally 0 offense from 7-8 of our forwards most of the season. That, at least for me, is what has me frustrated with this team. It seems if Carter isn't scoring, neither are the Kings.

Just to put it into perspective, we have guys getting 16+ minutes of ice time a game that would project into less than 20 points in a full year. That is just dismal.
Trevor Lewis is great in the playoff's right ?

Anyone wanna know why ?

The vast majority of Trevor Lewis time on the ice, is spent in the others team D zone.

The Kings over the last three years, have some wicked puck possession time in opposing teams zones(come playoff time).

Want to know why Lewis sucks in the Regular season ?

He is a winger that is basically playing Defender number three.

Lewis is one and done in the regular season on offense, cause his primary role is keep pucks out of his own zone.

No one is having good offense numbers yet cause, They are being asked to play so deep; to help out the young Defenders.

That makes your team Slow, and it gives the other team time and space to stuff you at the Blueline. Or keep your speed/shots to the outside.

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