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Tank or no Tank!

View Poll Results: What should the Caps do?
Tank and trade UFA's 36 43.90%
Tank and re-tool 36 43.90%
Trade futures to right the ship 2 2.44%
Stand pat, hoping they pull it together. 8 9.76%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:04 AM
  #51
fedfed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
I voted to stay with the status quo. Tanking is to much of a gamble. Sure it worked out prior to OV, but that **** doesn't always work out.

Hang tough in a **** division and wait for players like Hammer, Shultz, Poti, etc... to get off the books and see how prospects like Foresburg, Wilson, Kuznetsov help the big club.

Speaking of Wilson, it was said he almost made the big club this year, would bringing him back up help at all this year? Dose of youth to spark the boys? It seems he has a mean streak. This team could use it right now.
Tanking (if you don't talk about the core rebuild) isn't much of a risk for the Caps because they already have Forsberg, Wilson, Kuznetsov, etc.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:20 AM
  #52
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Tanking is a gamble as opposed to... what exactly?

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:24 AM
  #53
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Hope they get "unlucky" for the rest of the year, have good underlying numbers so they can say the system is working but they're still losing. Trade the UFAs... try to sign Ribeiro early, if you can't, trade him if you can get a good return.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:28 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Tanking (if you don't talk about the core rebuild) isn't much of a risk for the Caps because they already have Forsberg, Wilson, Kuznetsov, etc.
I suppose it depends on your definition of tanking. For me tanking is selling off players in the hopes of rebuilding because there is no hope of competing at a playoff level with the current players on the roster. I don't think the Caps are at that point.

The Caps are struggling in a strike shortened season that saw them have no time prior to the season starting to get used to a new HC"s system. So ride this season out with what is on the team, and maybe (hopefully) trade players like Hammer, Poti, Schultz, etc... to teams making playoff runs for anything, or let them walk in the offseason, so long as they come off the Caps books.

A retool is in order for this team. Not a rebuild or a straight up tank job. This team needs an infusion of seasoned veterans from outside the organization. Some guys that can change the mindset of the core guys on the Caps (OV, Nicky, Green, etc...). Can instill the work ethic needed on an everyday basis to make deep playoff runs. And that can also bring some grit to this team.

Players that will show the current core that it isn't ok to skate back to the bench when their goalie gets run, or a fellow linemate gets lit up by a questionable hit.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:35 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
I suppose it depends on your definition of tanking. For me tanking is selling off players in the hopes of rebuilding because there is no hope of competing at a playoff level with the current players on the roster. I don't think the Caps are at that point.

The Caps are struggling in a strike shortened season that saw them have no time prior to the season starting to get used to a new HC"s system. So ride this season out with what is on the team, and maybe (hopefully) trade players like Hammer, Poti, Schultz, etc... to teams making playoff runs for anything, or let them walk in the offseason, so long as they come off the Caps books.

A retool is in order for this team. Not a rebuild or a straight up tank job. This team needs an infusion of seasoned veterans from outside the organization. Some guys that can change the mindset of the core guys on the Caps (OV, Nicky, Green, etc...). Can instill the work ethic needed on an everyday basis to make deep playoff runs. And that can also bring some grit to this team.

Players that will show the current core that it isn't ok to skate back to the bench when their goalie gets run, or a fellow linemate gets lit up by a questionable hit.
No one seems to get this one point: A "retool" by the current GM will lead to the same crappy results. I think many on here do NOT see that.

So the only way to get Ted off his fat ass and make a change is to be so bad that he has too. Making the playoffs as the SE Loser (errr, winner) or the #8 seed wont make that happen. We need to continue to be bad...like we are now....to even have a chance at a leadership change.

This TEAM has good PARTS. But the PARTS do not make a good TEAM. That is ALL on the GM......as he fiddles around looking for an identity of the month, or another rookie coach to lead everyone.

FIRE GEORGE.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:36 AM
  #56
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I am ready to trade Ovetshkin. Just for sake of his career, and it would help our future immensely.
But if we trade him then we should trade Green, Ribeiro too..

Ovetshkin = Young upcoming talent + picks
Ribeiro = If he keeps this pace up we will get 1st+
Green = Possibly O'Reilly if they are interested

But we should do it this year if we are ever going to do it.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:36 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Tanking is a gamble as opposed to... what exactly?
Tanking is giving up, losing, IMO. And unless tanking involves trading away players like OV, Nicky and Green I am not interested in seeing a losing mindset instilled in players like OV, Nicky and Green who's confidence level right now is not at an all time high.

And thats what I mean by tanking being a gamble. Tank/sell off with a core group of young players that understand why its being done, and have the confidence to live through a handful of years of not competing, I can see happening. But tank/sell off with the current group of core players, players like OV, Nicky and Green that cannot be traded and who's confidence is low at the moment, the damage done could be something that no GM could fix for a decade.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:39 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
No one seems to get this one point: A "retool" by the current GM will lead to the same crappy results. I think many on here do NOT see that.

So the only way to get Ted off his fat ass and make a change is to be so bad that he has too. Making the playoffs as the SE Loser (errr, winner) or the #8 seed wont make that happen. We need to continue to be bad...like we are now....to even have a chance at a leadership change.

This TEAM has good PARTS. But the PARTS do not make a good TEAM. That is ALL on the GM......as he fiddles around looking for an identity of the month, or another rookie coach to lead everyone.

FIRE GEORGE.
I understand your point, and agree, but considering the fact GMGM is going no where I didn't bother addressing the need to retool with a new GM. But, at this point, I would still rather see a retool than a tank/rebuild.

If Ernie Grunfeld can't get fired with the crap he's pulled over the last 5-6 years with the Wiz, GMGM aint going anywhere.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:41 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
I understand your point, and agree, but considering the fact GMGM is going no where I didn't bother addressing the need to retool with a new GM. But, at this point, I would still rather see a retool than a tank/rebuild.

If Ernie Grunfeld can't get fired with the crap he's pulled over the last 5-6 years with the Wiz, GMGM aint going anywhere.
I know...you are right. It drives me insane!


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Old
02-19-2013, 09:45 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
I am ready to trade Ovetshkin. Just for sake of his career, and it would help our future immensely.
But if we trade him then we should trade Green, Ribeiro too..

Ovetshkin = Young upcoming talent + picks
Ribeiro = If he keeps this pace up we will get 1st+
Green = Possibly O'Reilly if they are interested

But we should do it this year if we are ever going to do it.
I would find a way to remove the C from OV"s chest that allows OV to save face before trading him. He needs some pressure removed from his shoulders. Removing the C will do that. Free him up to be himself more on and off the ice.

Trading him will have the same affect, so why not try reducing some of OV's responsibilities with the Caps before out right trading him away?

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:46 AM
  #61
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A. I'm not a fan of this because it almost supports what appears to be a "loser" attitude that somewhat exists now.

B. See above.

C. Nope. Don't want to trade futures.

D. Yep. Definitely ride it out. I have to say the thing that is not fair to the players are the coaching changes the last two years. They could still make the playoffs and gel at the right time. It doesn't rule out making deadline trades though. If I'd be a Chicago Black Hawk fan I'd be nervous the team has already peaked for instance. And the Caps know too well about the 2009 - 2010 Habs. They didn't win a Cup but the Hurricanes did not long ago - after the lockout.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:49 AM
  #62
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A combination of the first three.

Trade Hendricks, Ribeiro, Erskine if they won't extend. Trade the rest of the UFAs.

Re-tool by trading a key player to give the team better balance.

Use futures acquired from tanking and trading to fill other holes on the team.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:56 AM
  #63
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Green's not skating so I am changing my answer to full tank mode.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:56 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
Tanking is giving up, losing, IMO. And unless tanking involves trading away players like OV, Nicky and Green I am not interested in seeing a losing mindset instilled in players like OV, Nicky and Green who's confidence level right now is not at an all time high.

And thats what I mean by tanking being a gamble. Tank/sell off with a core group of young players that understand why its being done, and have the confidence to live through a handful of years of not competing, I can see happening. But tank/sell off with the current group of core players, players like OV, Nicky and Green that cannot be traded and who's confidence is low at the moment, the damage done could be something that no GM could fix for a decade.
It's not gonna instill any more of a loser mindset than they have now. That's a sport cliche not supported by much in reality. The Flyers absolutely bombed out in 2007 and then came back the next year and were a competitive winning-attitude team from that point on. Ducks were trash last year and look at them now. Toronto under Burke kept trying a win at all costs mentality (to the point where claiming Gerber screwed them out of a top 3 pick) and look where that got them.

If anything throwing the season away and coming into next season with a clean slate and weaknesses filled out will get them to play great, hungry hockey.

You really think young players will "understand" it but older players won't? What, do players get dumber as they age?

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:57 AM
  #65
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And yeah, we should trade OV since god forbid we have skill anywhere.

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:10 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
It's not gonna instill any more of a loser mindset than they have now. That's a sport cliche not supported by much in reality. The Flyers absolutely bombed out in 2007 and then came back the next year and were a competitive winning-attitude team from that point on. Ducks were trash last year and look at them now. Toronto under Burke kept trying a win at all costs mentality (to the point where claiming Gerber screwed them out of a top 3 pick) and look where that got them.

If anything throwing the season away and coming into next season with a clean slate and weaknesses filled out will get them to play great, hungry hockey.

You really think young players will "understand" it but older players won't? What, do players get dumber as they age?
Don't think I suggested in my previous post that young players understand better than older players. That players get dumber with age. I thought I centered my argument around young players with confidence and young players that lack confidence.

You can call what I suggested a cliche all you want, but I feel strongly about team leadership. Every team I played on, and coached for, the team was only as good as the player leaders on the team. Talent level is a big factor, but leadership wins out every time. I feel the same holds true for all levels of sports from pee-wee to professionals.

I am not familiar with who the leaders were for the 2007 Flyers, but something tells me the leadership on that Flyers team was a lot stronger than the leadership on the current Caps team. Same goes for the Ducks last year.

Ultimately, IMO, the Caps leadership, led by OV, is not strong enough to understand and survive a complete tank/rebuild quit job on this season. So if tank/rebuild is the way to go then OV, Nicky, and/or Green needs to go. If this team is going to rebuilt it needs to be rebuild from the ground up. If not, any rebuild will fail.

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:21 AM
  #67
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The only thing that needs to be done immediately is start negotiating an extension with Ribeiro. At least figure out how interested he really is and what his price tag is going to be to determine if he fits into future plans.

Otherwise, we have time. See how the next few weeks play out, and time will make the decision for you. If the team puts it together, then you can make some minor moves to cut the fat and shore up some areas of need. The more likely scenario is they fall back or tread water, and find themselves even futher out of the playoff picture. Then you can sell in a competitive trade deadline market, and hopefully get quality returns. Start selling too early, and you may not get the return you were looking for.

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:49 AM
  #68
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winning

Before it's to late they should replace the coach. The players seem to be confused and do not have any respect for him. He is messing with their minds and is trying to change them into something they are not, at this stage in their lives you are not going to make third and fourth liners into instant first line players and goal scorers. All these players got here because they do something well so let them do that.

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:54 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
Don't think I suggested in my previous post that young players understand better than older players. That players get dumber with age. I thought I centered my argument around young players with confidence and young players that lack confidence.

You can call what I suggested a cliche all you want, but I feel strongly about team leadership. Every team I played on, and coached for, the team was only as good as the player leaders on the team. Talent level is a big factor, but leadership wins out every time. I feel the same holds true for all levels of sports from pee-wee to professionals.

I am not familiar with who the leaders were for the 2007 Flyers, but something tells me the leadership on that Flyers team was a lot stronger than the leadership on the current Caps team. Same goes for the Ducks last year.

Ultimately, IMO, the Caps leadership, led by OV, is not strong enough to understand and survive a complete tank/rebuild quit job on this season. So if tank/rebuild is the way to go then OV, Nicky, and/or Green needs to go. If this team is going to rebuilt it needs to be rebuild from the ground up. If not, any rebuild will fail.
So this leadership being stronger thing is based on... what exactly? Those teams TANKED. We're TANKING. Where does this magical leadership difference come in? Does Getzlaf being Canadian (err... leadery) somehow make his coasting during tank seasons more acceptable? Hurricanes have been crap for 3 years, largely thanks to Staal being MIA the first half of those season, but I'm guessing Staal is still a "better" "leader" than Ovechkin in your opinion. Flyers thought so highly of Richards' leadership they booted his drunk ass out as soon as they got the chance.

And you're right, the team is as good as the players on the team. Last I checked there's 20 on the ice any given night. And most of those we have barely deserve an NHL uniform. But yeah, it's Ovechkin's fault that he can't inspire Wolski or Schultz to be all that they can be.

I'd really like some more concrete evidence that we can't come back roaring after a 2 month tank other than this group not being leadery enough based on really nothing.

IRL, Leadership takes you only as far as your surrounding, unless you're the Coyotes where laws of hockey don't apply. That was the common factor for all these "leaders" during their tank season and that's the common factor for us now. We suck, and our players would whiff on shots layups and get spun around on tap in goals even if Ovechkin was Gilmour himself

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:54 AM
  #70
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*your surrounding talent

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02-19-2013, 10:55 AM
  #71
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Got to try and make a run at the division crown and see what happens in the play-offs. If they do this whole realignment thing and we're in a division with NJD, Pit, Phil, NYR, Boston... don't see us making the play-offs for a few seasons.

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02-19-2013, 10:55 AM
  #72
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Also Stamkos, Lecavalier and St. Louis must not be leadery after Tampa's last season.

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02-19-2013, 10:57 AM
  #73
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You think OV is a good leader, I do not. Nothing else needs to be discussed.

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02-19-2013, 11:02 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
You think OV is a good leader, I do not. Nothing else needs to be discussed.
Actually you seem to think if OV was a good leader our players would somehow have a better skillset and better chemistry. That somehow all you need is a "good" leader and everything else falls into place. And if it doesn't, like it didn't for the 4 teams with "good" leadership groups I just pointed out (Tampa, Carolina, Anaheim, Philadelphia during their off years), then... that's also fine and doesn't apply, since they have good leaders.

Ovechkin may not be as good a leader as Dion Phaneuf or whatever on paper but his leadership is absolutely not the problem. Team being unable to follow it and raise their game every spring the way he raises his is, as is the team being generally poorly put together. Leaders for the most part are only as good as their surrounding talent. Don't believe me? Ask Jarome Iginla.

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:14 AM
  #75
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I think AO is a good leader. But good teams are loaded with leaders, they shoulder each other when something goes wrong, while the Caps don't have this option. I honestly believe is the team isn't semi-AHL as Halpysback is saying, but a definition of underachievement, and lack of leading players is why it happened IMO. This is GM's fail, not the roster itself.

IMO what we need is to push for the playoffs (anything can happen there). If we can't - sell the dead weight for however much, take a deep breath and re-evaluate the situation. With all the injuries, coaching changes and bad luck - why are we even saying so much drama quarterway in the shortened season? "They scored a goal - bid deal!".

Re-sign Ribeiro, stop adding the futures (we have an inexperienced group and 2 more young forwards scheduled to come. Enough) and find secondary leadership (and scoring). Reality is that we're not going to suddenly draft players better than our core. Rebuild is needed when a team has no potential to go anywhere, Caps are not a team like that yet.

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