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Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns

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Old
02-18-2013, 02:48 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
I think if they were averaging 15,000 fans at anything close to NHL prices you would see more buyers interested and at the very least get close to the $170 million price.
I seriously doubt that would even cause a buyer to flinch. I'm sure they look at just about everything else before the potential buyers look at attendance.

I think buyers look at potential when the asset is like the Coyotes. Room for improvement, etc. It wouldn't make sense to use attendance to leverage an investment since it isn't really a selling point in the first place.

A little effort goes a long way to getting people to go to games. That would be low hanging fruit for people who are serious about owning the Coyotes. It has to be sustainable too.

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02-18-2013, 02:54 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
I seriously doubt that would even cause a buyer to flinch. I'm sure they look at just about everything else before the potential buyers look at attendance.

I think buyers look at potential when the asset is like the Coyotes. Room for improvement, etc.
It wouldn't make sense to use attendance to leverage an investment since it isn't really a selling point in the first place.

A little effort goes a long way to getting people to go to games. That would be low hanging fruit for people who are serious about owning the Coyotes. It has to be sustainable too.

Well, the Yotes DO have a wealth of "room for improvement".

If that's a selling point, the Yotes are laughing.

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02-18-2013, 02:54 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
I seriously doubt that would even cause a buyer to flinch. I'm sure they look at just about everything else before the potential buyers look at attendance.
Attendance would not be the last item in the pecking order of due diligence.

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02-18-2013, 03:28 PM
  #229
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This is the worst part IMO. Let's assume the team has already been sold or is about to be sold to an out-of-towner and will be moving as soon as the season is over. I fully understand the NHL reluctance to make the annoucement now in that their thinking is they will lose more money because attendance will drop, but let's look at that.

So far this year the team has pulled in the following approx. ticket revenue:

9 games X 12,690 avg. attendance X $38 avg ticket price = $4,339,980

After Monday they will have 14 games left:

14 games X 12,690 avg. attendance X $38 avg ticket price = $6,751,080

I'm not trying to show a specific value here, but just to back up my point, and that is even if the NHL came out right after the Calgary game and announced the team was moving ( so the fans could say a proper goodbye ) it's not like they are going to lose a ton of money in the grand scheme of things. There will still will be people going to the games and buying food etc, so its not like attendance is going to drop to zero. And even if it did, so what...

I'm just saying, even if it costs a couple of million, stop screwing the fans of the team over. If its moving.... say so.
Well since the Coyotes are in the playoff hunt, they don't want to wreck any late season attendance bump or have an empty house should they make the playoffs.

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02-18-2013, 03:56 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Attendance would not be the last item in the pecking order of due diligence.
You can't really infer anything meaningful from the Coyotes attendance record. It will show that they draw well during competitive years. Price sensitivity is all over the map. No owner cut the weekday games from 12-14k to 8k. I'm honestly surprised we are seeing the numbers we are given that the Coyotes are almost assuredly moving. People aren't stupid. It's not inconceivable that the improved product, in combination with solid, engaged ownership would make the team viable. But as long as they are asking twice what it's worth, those types are going to stay far away.

I'm actually curious to see what happens when the cap goes above $70 million again. There's a danger there of pricing the smaller markets out of the game. It also becomes much harder to expand in new markets due to higher prices.

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02-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Well since the Coyotes are in the playoff hunt, they don't want to wreck any late season attendance bump or have an empty house should they make the playoffs.
I dn't understand this, wouldn't people want to see them before htye go

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02-18-2013, 04:34 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
You can't really infer anything meaningful from the Coyotes attendance record.
I wasn't specifically targeting the Coyotes

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02-18-2013, 06:28 PM
  #233
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I don't believe I ever recall seeing these videos referenced in any of the post bankruptcy threads but I just happened to stumble across these on YT. Absolutely fascinating stuff. If you're interested, I recommend setting aside about an hour as it's in 3 segments.

It's a panel discussion regarding professional sports team and Bankruptcy. On this panel, held by ASU's Sports & Entertainment Law Students Association and the Sports and Entertainment Law Journal, the panel includes:

Judge Baum, Moyes Attorney Tom Salerno (Squire, Sanders & Dempsey), and Susan Freeman (one of Balsillies attorney's - Lewis and Roca LLP), for those that are unfamiliar.

Heavy on the bankruptcy case, even in some instances indicting and pretty damning. Also goes into the Stars, Texas Rangers, and LA Dodgers.

IMO, absolutely worth the hour investment of time.

1 of 3

2 of 3

3 of 3

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02-18-2013, 08:36 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
You can't really infer anything meaningful from the Coyotes attendance record. It will show that they draw well during competitive years. Price sensitivity is all over the map. No owner cut the weekday games from 12-14k to 8k. I'm honestly surprised we are seeing the numbers we are given that the Coyotes are almost assuredly moving. People aren't stupid. It's not inconceivable that the improved product, in combination with solid, engaged ownership would make the team viable. But as long as they are asking twice what it's worth, those types are going to stay far away.

I'm actually curious to see what happens when the cap goes above $70 million again. There's a danger there of pricing the smaller markets out of the game. It also becomes much harder to expand in new markets due to higher prices.
"they draw well during competitive years"? I hope you are not serious, look at their most competitive year ever, last year! WCF`s and they still only averaged a little over 12,000 fans, one of the worst in the league! Yet you call that drawing well? This is the issue with the delusionals, somehow they seem to think that 15,000 is a good number, it stinks, and might I remind you that those numbers were achieved with the lowest ticket prices in the league. Ownership would have little if no impact whatsoever on attendance, really!!!!

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02-18-2013, 11:01 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
I don't believe I ever recall seeing these videos referenced in any of the post bankruptcy threads but I just happened to stumble across these on YT. Absolutely fascinating stuff. If you're interested, I recommend setting aside about an hour as it's in 3 segments.

It's a panel discussion regarding professional sports team and Bankruptcy. On this panel, held by ASU's Sports & Entertainment Law Students Association and the Sports and Entertainment Law Journal, the panel includes:

Judge Baum, Moyes Attorney Tom Salerno (Squire, Sanders & Dempsey), and Susan Freeman (one of Balsillies attorney's - Lewis and Roca LLP), for those that are unfamiliar.

Heavy on the bankruptcy case, even in some instances indicting and pretty damning. Also goes into the Stars, Texas Rangers, and LA Dodgers.

IMO, absolutely worth the hour investment of time.

1 of 3

2 of 3

3 of 3
Fantastic find. Thank you for posting this, M4B.


Should generate some new -- and relevant -- discussion.

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02-18-2013, 11:09 PM
  #236
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I have the perfect and logical way for the Yotes to stay in AZ.
I can't say it though; it'll cause a war

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02-18-2013, 11:21 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Fantastic find. Thank you for posting this, M4B.


Should generate some new -- and relevant -- discussion.
Very optimistic, Fugu. Enlightenment is a very rare commodity on this thread.

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02-18-2013, 11:31 PM
  #238
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Very optimistic, Fugu. Enlightenment is a very rare commodity on this thread.

I just expended my last picogram of optimism on keeping this thread bordering on topical.....

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:07 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post

Heavy on the bankruptcy case, even in some instances indicting and pretty damning.
I'll be sure to watch it, though I don't think I can stomach that lineup. Anyone have any cliffnotes on what would be considered 'indicting' and 'damning' ?

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02-19-2013, 06:16 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Fantastic find. Thank you for posting this, M4B.


Should generate some new -- and relevant -- discussion.
It's because there's no news.

When they start talking attendance in PHX, I stop reading.

There will be nothing new until may IMHO.

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02-19-2013, 06:29 AM
  #241
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There is really nothing to discuss anymore. Unless some kind of super-duper-god-himself-gets-involved-miracle happens, the vet is gonna confirm this coyote death in the coming weeks/months. Then, lots of interesting and relevant discussion will happen.

When 100% of people agrees on something, there really ain't much to debate...

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02-19-2013, 08:11 AM
  #242
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I certainly don't agree that the speculated $170M asking price is asinine. The BoG is now likely as much as $230M into their BofA LoC after having purchased the team and financed both its operations/losses and its various legal wranglings these past 4 years - even after a few palettes of cash from the city. Even if the TNSE $60M relo fee were to be applied to Phoenix (which isn't a safe assumption, I think) an asking price of $170M would still be in order. Bottom line, we dont know what the asking price is to keep the team in town or to move it to another city.

And let's also not fool ourselves into thinking that the 29 leather seats around the BoG table are of one mind, either in their opinion for the situation in Phoenix or in their level of support for the commissioner himself.

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02-19-2013, 08:28 AM
  #243
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The NHL can either keep a team in Phoenix by lowering the price or recoup lost money by moving the team. What is asinine is that they think they can both keep the team in Phoenix and recoup the money in a sale.

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02-19-2013, 08:56 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by PSGJ View Post
The NHL can either keep a team in Phoenix by lowering the price or recoup lost money by moving the team. What is asinine is that they think they can both keep the team in Phoenix and recoup the money in a sale.
who says they actually think that?


Last edited by GuelphStormer: 02-19-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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02-19-2013, 09:28 AM
  #245
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I dn't understand this, wouldn't people want to see them before htye go
There would be some of that but it would be more than offset by the people who stay away out of anger/disgust/indifference. Look at any team where moves were announced before the end of the season. Sure you may get a pop in the very last game (like the Expos in Montreal) but overall attendance will take a beating

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02-19-2013, 10:39 AM
  #246
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From what I've seen of the video, it looks like nobody ends up smelling of roses.

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02-19-2013, 10:45 AM
  #247
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I'll be sure to watch it, though I don't think I can stomach that lineup. Anyone have any cliffnotes on what would be considered 'indicting' and 'damning' ?
You shouldn't seek the Cliffs Notes on this, XX, nor others on this board even the lurkers from the market. I find it an educational excercise that should be digested... in it's entirety IMO. It may not answer all the old burning questions in their entirety, but definately insightful acknowledgements nonetheless.

But to entice you (or anyone else) to commit to viewing them I will say that no one, not the League, CoG, Tindall, Bettman, nor Ellman were spared some sort of chide or handspanking. Even from Baum (CoG, League's Gretzky treatment, Tindall).

CF's Magical Flight Cross-Country To Save the Day at Zero Hour scenario is referenced, EBITDA losses, numbers, and the Forced sale/Contract enforcement via Bankruptcy strategy, Leaf Veto, severing the Lease, etc. Although, I will say I didn't like Salerno's general glossing over of the WPG situation (Jets).

It's truly unique in that it summarizes the beginning, how we got there (Bankruptcy), how we got here (now), and foresight into what's to come. Regardless of outcome. Even if it's coming from the Moyes/Balsillie side.

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02-19-2013, 10:59 AM
  #248
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fwiw Gary Lawless talked briefly on the Coyotes chances of relocation and expansion during the Jets game on Sunday. Said he's hearing its increasingly likely that if they relocate it would be to Seattle.

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02-19-2013, 11:13 AM
  #249
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fwiw Gary Lawless talked briefly on the Coyotes chances of relocation and expansion during the Jets game on Sunday. Said he's hearing its increasingly likely that if they relocate it would be to Seattle.
If that is the case I see both Hartford and Quebec city being expansion cities in the next 5 years, capping the league off at 32 teams. It only makes sense at this point.

Seattle is a brand new market... Hartford and Quebec are not only proven, but in 5 years they could be good options (new arenas, major renovations, etc)

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02-19-2013, 11:16 AM
  #250
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fwiw Gary Lawless talked briefly on the Coyotes chances of relocation and expansion during the Jets game on Sunday. Said he's hearing its increasingly likely that if they relocate it would be to Seattle.
sorry, i know seattle is becoming the favourite, but count me among those who consider seattle long on potential and short on practicality. the unproven market and ownership unknowns easily place seattle 3rd on a list of immediate relocation sites, behind qc, hamilton and possibly even behind gta2 playing out of the acc until the motoroladome gets built.

if this team moves to seattle it will only be because PKP has refused to take them this year and someone at the BoG table still resents hamilton. it would be a risky decision to put this team in seattle this year ... but hey, you know what they say about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

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