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Trade Rumor Thread III: "Trade 40 goal scorer for picks= Cup contenders" edition

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:05 AM
  #851
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Why are people mentioning EJ? You seriously think COL will move him with the state of their D? Not happening.

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02-19-2013, 11:06 AM
  #852
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DZ is up for a new deal in 16 months. He will command $4M going to salary arbitration. Cam Fowler is a -50 something and he got $4M per in a 5 year extension which covered non-arb,3 arb years and 1 group III year. Can the Rangers afford 4 big ticket D? DZ and McD won't be on entry level deals anymore starting next season. DZ is out of entry level. Mac will be next season. Sather and Gorton have a board in their offices with projected cap numbers and how the pieces fit. McIlrath gives them two years of entry level. The 14-15 cap could remain $64.3M. It can't drop below $64.3M. 15-16 cap will include the new Canadian TV dollars. CBC contract expires after 13-14. First year of new $ is 14-15 which is factored into 15-16 cap number. The cap went from $64.3M to $70.2M with Atlanta moving to Winnipeg and NBC contract.

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02-19-2013, 11:13 AM
  #853
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Skjei would be off the table, IMO. Skjei is going to be VERY VERY good. No way Sather and Gorton move him.
the value of skjei and mcilrath becomes even more for us given the big paydays our big 4 will be getting over the next few years...its not unrealistic to think that we won't be able to keep all 4 and if we have to make a decision on one of them, i'd feel alot better having skjei and mcilrath in the wings ready to fill those voids.

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02-19-2013, 11:16 AM
  #854
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Skjei, McIlrath, Lindberg, Fast, Nieves

Those are the guys i believe will be good NHL players. Can't see any of them being moved by Gorton and Sather. These are the kind of players Gorton is really high on.
Can you tell me more about him? I've heard he's highly regarded but really don't know all that much other than his name is Boo.

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DZ is up for a new deal in 16 months. He will command $4M going to salary arbitration. Cam Fowler is a -50 something and he got $4M per in a 5 year extension which covered non-arb,3 arb years and 1 group III year. Can the Rangers afford 4 big ticket D? DZ and McD won't be on entry level deals anymore starting next season. DZ is out of entry level. Mac will be next season. Sather and Gorton have a board in their offices with projected cap numbers and how the pieces fit. McIlrath gives them two years of entry level. The 14-15 cap could remain $64.3M. It can't drop below $64.3M. 15-16 cap will include the new Canadian TV dollars. CBC contract expires after 13-14. First year of new $ is 14-15 which is factored into 15-16 cap number. The cap went from $64.3M to $70.2M with Atlanta moving to Winnipeg and NBC contract.
I can't justify giving him 4+ without knowing what the cap would look like, especially with McD, Staal, and Girardi all due for raises (and deservedly so). Moving him for ROR might make sense, especially because I don't believe O'Reilly truly wants what he's asking for from Colorado; he just wants out of there.

With McIlrath and Sjkei in wings, the sting of losing MDZ is reduced. I know neither of them is a true PMD, but perhaps we can acquire one elsewhere. It's not easy, but not impossible.

Also look at our center depth. Outside of Lindberg, the cupboard's bare. A spine of Stepan-O'Reilly-Miller-Lindberg/Boyle is extremely solid and young.

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02-19-2013, 11:17 AM
  #855
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
What does everyone think of MDZ and Miller for ROR and Barrie? Two solid roster players and 2 young guys with potential. Also both are losing a center and a defenseman.
Don't like it.

Prefer to keep MDZ and Miller

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02-19-2013, 11:19 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by NY Lito View Post
Agree. I think he's going to be a stud. See him becoming McDonagh-lite at the worst.

Despite the number of guys that have come up, our cupboard still looks nice. McIlrath, Skjei, Fasth, and Lindberg will all be productive NHLers IMO. I don't want to trade any of these guys.
Those are high expectations to set IMO. McDonagh is an established #1 shutdown defenseman, you expect Skjei to be much better?

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02-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #857
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Skjei, McIlrath, Lindberg, Fast, Nieves

Those are the guys i believe will be good NHL players. Can't see any of them being moved by Gorton and Sather. These are the kind of players Gorton is really high on.
We were high on Tim Erixon too, called him a top 4 d-man RIGHT NOW at the time we traded for him at the draft last year. Fast forward one year, and he isn't even NYR property.

Guys will be moved for sure.

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02-19-2013, 11:21 AM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I've gotten the impression that's pretty much exactly what the last discussion between the teams involved. Miller a non-starter for the Rangers it seems.
thank god someone in the Org. is showing some common sense.

Discussing a MDZ for ROR swap in the first place would tell me different about the common sense aspect, but refusing to discuss Miller restores some of my faith

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02-19-2013, 11:23 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Those are high expectations to set IMO. McDonagh is an established #1 shutdown defenseman, you expect Skjei to be much better?
No, that's why I said McDonagh-lite. A poor man's McD, if you will.

Very similar styles of play. He can also skate with the best of them, and when Skjei starts to use his size more in his own zone, watch out. Loved this pick.

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02-19-2013, 11:24 AM
  #860
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going to vote no on a O'Reilley deal around DZ but if they do I say something like

DZ, Boyle, Thomas for O'Reilley, Elliot, O'Byre, Kobasew

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02-19-2013, 11:26 AM
  #861
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Skjei, McIlrath, Lindberg, Fast, Nieves

Those are the guys i believe will be good NHL players. Can't see any of them being moved by Gorton and Sather. These are the kind of players Gorton is really high on.
I would trade any TWO of those names LOOOOOONG before I moved MDZ.

For all the potential they have, not one has done a dammmed thing that would have me choose to keep them over MDZ.

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02-19-2013, 11:28 AM
  #862
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DZ is up for a new deal in 16 months. He will command $4M going to salary arbitration. Cam Fowler is a -50 something and he got $4M per in a 5 year extension which covered non-arb,3 arb years and 1 group III year. Can the Rangers afford 4 big ticket D? DZ and McD won't be on entry level deals anymore starting next season. DZ is out of entry level. Mac will be next season. Sather and Gorton have a board in their offices with projected cap numbers and how the pieces fit. McIlrath gives them two years of entry level. The 14-15 cap could remain $64.3M. It can't drop below $64.3M. 15-16 cap will include the new Canadian TV dollars. CBC contract expires after 13-14. First year of new $ is 14-15 which is factored into 15-16 cap number. The cap went from $64.3M to $70.2M with Atlanta moving to Winnipeg and NBC contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
the value of skjei and mcilrath becomes even more for us given the big paydays our big 4 will be getting over the next few years...its not unrealistic to think that we won't be able to keep all 4 and if we have to make a decision on one of them, i'd feel alot better having skjei and mcilrath in the wings ready to fill those voids.
I agree, and what you guys say here is also my reasoning.

Del Zotto is going to get paid big on his next deal. McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi are more important, IMO, to the future and success of this club on the ice.

Get Tyson Barrie back in the deal, Barrie has a ton of potential to fit our needs. Improve our transition attack. Future PP QB.

While I don't want to, but if you move Boyle, O'Reilly replaces what Boyle provides, and more, longer-term.

It's a deal that makes sense for both clubs.

Getting O'Reilly and Barrie would be maximizing Del Zotto's value, while the opportunity is there. If we wait, and need to move him later to fit McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi, that lessens Del Zotto's value.

We lose a 3rd-4th line center. And an inconsistent defenseman that can put up points. We gain a #1-2 center, and a real offensive defenseman with high upside.

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02-19-2013, 11:29 AM
  #863
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I would trade any TWO of those names LOOOOOONG before I moved MDZ.

For all the potential they have, not one has done a dammmed thing that would have me choose to keep them over MDZ.
For one thing, none of them will cost 4+ million in the next 4-5 years.

I understand why people don't want to move MDZ. But it's a salary cap world we live in. Can we really be paying our our 4th-best d-man 4+ million, when the 3 above him will all be making that or more? Not so sure.

I'm not saying we should be looking to give away MDZ, but if the right move comes along, you have to explore it. MDZ is not untouchable.

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02-19-2013, 11:33 AM
  #864
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Few points:
1 - The definition of PMD. Why is that even relevant to the discussion? The bottom line is MDZ is a consistent 40 point Dman at age 22. Those do not grow on trees.
2 - We can trade for a PMD. Do you have names, what would it take to get them?
3 - I find it fascinating that we now have expert scouts on this board who can see a player at 22 and determine what his upside is limited. We also read that he is worth less than what his stats show.
4 - The same "experts" tell us that if you see RoR play he is worth more than his stats show.
5- I said this before, RoR is a luxury on this team, MDZ is a need. As it is if one of the top 4 is injured, Bickel or Eminger will have to fill in. If that ain't scary, don't know what is.
Last season the top 3 Dmen were logging 25+ minutes/game. If you trade MDZ, do you think Torts will trust Barrie or Elliott in the playoffs? Girard, McD and Staal will be logging 30+ minutes a game. Then when they run out of gas, you will be looking for scapegoats.

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02-19-2013, 11:34 AM
  #865
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I agree, and what you guys say here is also my reasoning.

Del Zotto is going to get paid big on his next deal. McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi are more important, IMO, to the future and success of this club on the ice.

Get Tyson Barrie back in the deal, Barrie has a ton of potential to fit our needs. Improve our transition attack. Future PP QB.

While I don't want to, but if you move Boyle, O'Reilly replaces what Boyle provides, and more, longer-term.

It's a deal that makes sense for both clubs.

Getting O'Reilly and Barrie would be maximizing Del Zotto's value, while the opportunity is there. If we wait, and need to move him later to fit McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi, that lessens Del Zotto's value.

We lose a 3rd-4th line center. And an inconsistent defenseman that can put up points. We gain a #1-2 center, and a real offensive defenseman with high upside.
MDZ+Boyle for O'Reilly+Barrie would be an excellent trade. I might even throw in a pick or a Christian Thomas.

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02-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #866
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I agree, and what you guys say here is also my reasoning.

Del Zotto is going to get paid big on his next deal. McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi are more important, IMO, to the future and success of this club on the ice.

Get Tyson Barrie back in the deal, Barrie has a ton of potential to fit our needs. Improve our transition attack. Future PP QB.

While I don't want to, but if you move Boyle, O'Reilly replaces what Boyle provides, and more, longer-term.

It's a deal that makes sense for both clubs.

Getting O'Reilly and Barrie would be maximizing Del Zotto's value, while the opportunity is there. If we wait, and need to move him later to fit McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi, that lessens Del Zotto's value.

We lose a 3rd-4th line center. And an inconsistent defenseman that can put up points. We gain a #1-2 center, and a real offensive defenseman with high upside.
That's why the trade you describe won't happen. Colorado values Del Zotto because they have a lot of slow big D, and need transition help. Barrie sounds great, but I think it's insane to think Del Z can net you O'Reilly & Barrie w/out giving up a top prospect (or two) w/ a pick.

Del Zotto is getting seriously overrated right now. He's got a weak shot, and cannot stop top offensive players. If Rangers can get a rugged D back from COL they can rent an offensive D who probably has a better point shot than Del Z. I think O'Reilly is the best return they'll generate for Del Zotto.

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02-19-2013, 11:40 AM
  #867
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I would trade any TWO of those names LOOOOOONG before I moved MDZ.

For all the potential they have, not one has done a dammmed thing that would have me choose to keep them over MDZ.
You have your opinion.

Skjei is a FAR more intelligent player than Del Zotto. It's not even close.

Fasth and Lindberg are two of the top young players in the SEL.

Nieves is Michigan's top forward.

McIlrath is progressing very nicely.

Del Zotto, while talented, has a lot of potential, but he's wildly inconsistent, and he's going to get paid.

This is what happens in a capped league. Sacrifices need to be made. And when you can maximize value, you do it, and move forward with players continuing to be promoted and taking spots.

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02-19-2013, 11:41 AM
  #868
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thank god someone in the Org. is showing some common sense.

Discussing a MDZ for ROR swap in the first place would tell me different about the common sense aspect, but refusing to discuss Miller restores some of my faith
Rangers can't afford 4 high-priced defensemen. Common sense would indicate that you keep the best of the bunch, and that group has Staal, Girardi and McDonagh ahead of MDZ.

I know people will say, "MDZ is our only PMD! We can't trade him!" However, that's a disingenuous statement at best. Staal and McDonagh are both very good puck rushers, and all members of our top-4 can make a solid outlet pass. In fact, while MDZ clearly has the best outlet pass of all of them, he's not as good as leading a rush as Staal, McDonagh, or even Stralman, IMO.

I think the thing that I was hoping for out of Del Zotto over the last year or so is that he would start showing more creativity with the puck. He's a phenomenal passer, but he lacks the creativity that separates the elite puck movers from the good ones. While he has more size and physical presence than Barrie does, I think Barrie is a better puck rusher and has more creativity. His shot isn't as hard as Del Zotto's, but it's far more accurate. Del Zotto can be a #2 in a pinch and is an excellent #3. I think Barrie is an excellent #4, but probably not much more.

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02-19-2013, 11:45 AM
  #869
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Rangers can't afford 4 high-priced defensemen. Common sense would indicate that you keep the best of the bunch, and that group has Staal, Girardi and McDonagh ahead of MDZ.

I know people will say, "MDZ is our only PMD! We can't trade him!" However, that's a disingenuous statement at best. Staal and McDonagh are both very good puck rushers, and all members of our top-4 can make a solid outlet pass. In fact, while MDZ clearly has the best outlet pass of all of them, he's not as good as leading a rush as Staal, McDonagh, or even Stralman, IMO.

I think the thing that I was hoping for out of Del Zotto over the last year or so is that he would start showing more creativity with the puck. He's a phenomenal passer, but he lacks the creativity that separates the elite puck movers from the good ones. While he has more size and physical presence than Barrie does, I think Barrie is a better puck rusher and has more creativity. His shot isn't as hard as Del Zotto's, but it's far more accurate. Del Zotto can be a #2 in a pinch and is an excellent #3. I think Barrie is an excellent #4, but probably not much more.
Canucks Big 4:

Bieksa: $4,600,000
Hamhuis: $4,500,000
Garrison: $4,600,000
Edler: $5,000,000

along with:

Ballard: $4,200,000

I see no reason why we can't afford our big 4, especially when they're the most integral part of why our roster is hard to play against.

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02-19-2013, 11:45 AM
  #870
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Few points:
1 - The definition of PMD. Why is that even relevant to the discussion? The bottom line is MDZ is a consistent 40 point Dman at age 22. Those do not grow on trees.
2 - We can trade for a PMD. Do you have names, what would it take to get them?
3 - I find it fascinating that we now have expert scouts on this board who can see a player at 22 and determine what his upside is limited. We also read that he is worth less than what his stats show.
4 - The same "experts" tell us that if you see RoR play he is worth more than his stats show.
5- I said this before, RoR is a luxury on this team, MDZ is a need. As it is if one of the top 4 is injured, Bickel or Eminger will have to fill in. If that ain't scary, don't know what is.
Last season the top 3 Dmen were logging 25+ minutes/game. If you trade MDZ, do you think Torts will trust Barrie or Elliott in the playoffs? Girard, McD and Staal will be logging 30+ minutes a game. Then when they run out of gas, you will be looking for scapegoats.
It's not all about stats, for starters, and there's a financial angle to it, as well.

Stralman is in the beginning stages of his prime. He's more then capable of logging 20+ minutes.

You can not have 5 top four defensemen, getting paid like top four defensemen, in a salary capped league. Especially a salary capped league that will be having the cap ceiling drop considerably before the start of next season.

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02-19-2013, 11:45 AM
  #871
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Rangers can't afford 4 high-priced defensemen. Common sense would indicate that you keep the best of the bunch, and that group has Staal, Girardi and McDonagh ahead of MDZ.

I know people will say, "MDZ is our only PMD! We can't trade him!" However, that's a disingenuous statement at best. Staal and McDonagh are both very good puck rushers, and all members of our top-4 can make a solid outlet pass. In fact, while MDZ clearly has the best outlet pass of all of them, he's not as good as leading a rush as Staal, McDonagh, or even Stralman, IMO.

I think the thing that I was hoping for out of Del Zotto over the last year or so is that he would start showing more creativity with the puck. He's a phenomenal passer, but he lacks the creativity that separates the elite puck movers from the good ones. While he has more size and physical presence than Barrie does, I think Barrie is a better puck rusher and has more creativity. His shot isn't as hard as Del Zotto's, but it's far more accurate. Del Zotto can be a #2 in a pinch and is an excellent #3. I think Barrie is an excellent #4, but probably not much more.
Which is fine considering we have an excellent (and soon-to-be high-paid) top 3.

Don't think the people who are clamoring to hang on to MDZ understand how the salary cap works, or more so, how successful front offices go about their business.

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02-19-2013, 11:47 AM
  #872
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For one thing, none of them will cost 4+ million in the next 4-5 years.

I understand why people don't want to move MDZ. But it's a salary cap world we live in. Can we really be paying our defenseman whose 4th in ice time 4+ million, when the 3 above him will all be making that or more? Not so sure.

I'm not saying we should be looking to give away MDZ, but if the right move comes along, you have to explore it. MDZ is not untouchable.
Seems folks are sure that MDZ is the odd man out when it COULD be Girardi that goes.

That takes care of the 4 big contracts on D.

If these guys McIlrath and Skjei develope as everyone HOPES they will, then moving Girardi will be the smart play because I do not see anyone in the system that projects to what MDZ is already today.

Skjei is still way to green to know what kind of player he will become. Won't mention what he is doing for the Gophers because as a freshman I'm sure he is still learning the game. They have a good program and I trust them to develope properly, but the issue I have with that is that we don't know what the final product will resemble. It may not be much.

To move the only real offensive defenceman you have during a cup run for an upgrade to our 3rd line seems to me to be a step in the wrong direction.

Adding Barrie because he has the potential to be what MDZ already is, is pie in the sky thinking.

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02-19-2013, 11:47 AM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Canucks Big 4:

Bieksa: $4,600,000
Hamhuis: $4,500,000
Garrison: $4,600,000
Edler: $5,000,000

along with:

Ballard: $4,200,000

I see no reason why we can't afford our big 4, especially when they're the most integral part of why our roster is hard to play against.
I'm glad you provided an example of a bloated and overpaid d-corps. Pretty sure Vancouver would like some of that money spent elsewhere, even considering they don't have anywhere near the number of RFA's due for raises that we currently have.

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02-19-2013, 11:47 AM
  #874
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You have your opinion.

Skjei is a FAR more intelligent player than Del Zotto. It's not even close.
I take a bit of issue with that. Skjei just figured out how to play hockey at the college level.

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02-19-2013, 11:50 AM
  #875
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thank god someone in the Org. is showing some common sense.

Discussing a MDZ for ROR swap in the first place would tell me different about the common sense aspect, but refusing to discuss Miller restores some of my faith
http://snyrangersblog.com/znhl-playe...from-saturday/

They have discussed it. Apparently in more depth then just a courtesy call.

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