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Flames - Don't rebuild...reload

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:34 AM
  #101
NightBlazer
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No one says that Calgary has one of the top prospect pools. We say that it's not one of the worst, which is true, and that as long as it continues to trend upward, Calgary will gradually improve and thus there's no reason to hit the panic button and blow it all up.

No one talks about Calgary having a good farm system as a whole, but at the same time most of Calgary's prospects are unknown and unhyped; largely due to the fact that there's not many Flames fans here. What you will see though from other fans, is praise for individual prospects; ie a BC fan raving about Gaudreau, Providence fans have said how good Gillies and Janks have looked, WHL fans that are high on Ferland, etc., If you group those opinions together you'll see that Calgary gets respect across the league from knowledgeable and objective fans. It's just that Flames prospects as a whole are under the radar, so other fans don't really know much about them. It's not because the prospects are bad, it's because people are ignorant about Calgary in general. You see guys in here talking about how Glencross is a 3rd line player worth a 2nd round pick. I've even seen Canucks fans say that. People in general just don't know **** about Calgary, they just go by what they hear.

As for Toronto having more haters, well that's highly debatable IMO. Saying MUCH more though is simply not true.

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02-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
The Wings are in a worse spot than the Flames. Didn't we just kick your butt a few games ago?
haha ya dont think so

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02-19-2013, 11:59 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
How does Detroit have a better prosect pool? B.S. Datsyuk is old, Zetterberg is getting old, Fransen is an injury waiting to happen. The Wings got old fast are soon going to be bottom feeders for years.
Does anybody else want this masterpiece, or am I gonna have to be the one that destroys it?

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02-19-2013, 12:01 PM
  #104
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The time to rebuild was 3 years ago.

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02-19-2013, 12:16 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
It would be an anomaly if he were 26, not 36. Even if Kipper got that percentage up to say, a .905 SV%, that's still well below that of an average starter in this league. GM's don't trade for what a guy did a few years ago, they trade for what the guy can do now. How many contending teams need a number one goalie anyways? I just can't see teams lining up and willing to hand over first round picks and good prospects for an aging goalie banking on him just having a slow start.
I don't think you understand the word anomaly. He is always a slow starter so to base it off the first few games is a very poor sample size.

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02-19-2013, 12:20 PM
  #106
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The problem with the Flames is that they will be in a tough position to either get a good enough return to make dealing their most important players worthwhile (due to NTCs and in some cases mediocre value for the cap hit), and possibly an even tougher position to replace those players in the free agent market over the next couple of offseasons.

If they decide to trade Jarome Iginla and Jay Bouwmeester and Miika Kiprusoff because they can net the best return that would give them over $25m in cap space but they'd still need to go out and get two NHL-calibre goalies, two top four defensemen and three top six forwards.

Even if every player they offered a contract accepted it (how'd that work out with Brad Richards) they still likely wouldn't have enough space to fill all the holes in that roster.

The fact is they are going to have to wait out the bad contracts with movement clauses before they can hope to make major improvements.. trouble is, they keep adding another one or two every offseason.

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:21 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
The problem with the Flames is that they will be in a tough position to either get a good enough return to make dealing their most important players worthwhile (due to NTCs and in some cases mediocre value for the cap hit), and possibly an even tougher position to replace those players in the free agent market over the next couple of offseasons.

If they decide to trade Jarome Iginla and Jay Bouwmeester and Miika Kiprusoff because they can net the best return that would give them over $25m in cap space but they'd still need to go out and get two NHL-calibre goalies, two top four defensemen and three top six forwards.

Even if every player they offered a contract accepted it (how'd that work out with Brad Richards) they still likely wouldn't have enough space to fill all the holes in that roster.

The fact is they are going to have to wait out the bad contracts with movement clauses before they can hope to make major improvements.. trouble is, they keep adding another one or two every offseason.
What bad contracts are preventing the Flames from making moves?

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:32 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Flamesjustwin View Post
How does Detroit have a better prosect pool? B.S. Datsyuk is old, Zetterberg is getting old, Fransen is an injury waiting to happen. The Wings got old fast are soon going to be bottom feeders for years.
HF really needs to implement an age restriction. Comments like these just go to show how little some people know about hockey or prospects.

I love how you have decided Detroit's prospect pool is garbage because Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen are old. Yes two of the top 15 in scoring centers really affects how our prospect pool is rated.

Calgary's prospects have been getting better over the the last couple years but they are know where near the top. They are slowly climbing out from the bottom. This isn't a knock as they have realized they had problems and are attempting to correct them.

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:35 PM
  #109
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Well actually there are several (in my opinion. Do I need to add that?)

They've been at or near the cap ceiling for years, and it's largely due to a bunch of fairly small overpayments like those to Matt Stajan, Cory Sarich, Anton Babchuk, Jay Bouwmeester..

None of those deals is straight up awful (well, Stajan..) but hand out an extra few hundred thousand here, a million there and it adds up quick. And of course when all those guys have movement clauses its a tough problem to fix.

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:49 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by wally31 View Post
Just Kipper. He would bring home a 1st. .
Not so sure

What contender needs an upgrade at G right now?
What contender would view injured/struggling Kipper as an upgrade right now?

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02-19-2013, 12:55 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
Those aren't even B level prospects
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Not so sure

What contender needs an upgrade at G right now?
What contender would view injured/struggling Kipper as an upgrade right now?
When he comes back he will have several weeks to prove it was a usual slow start.

In the Jbo thread everyone says his value can't be much higher because has played 1 great month then in this thread everyone says after a couple bad weeks Kippers stock has significantly lowered so which is it?

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02-19-2013, 12:58 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
When he comes back he will have several weeks to prove it was a usual slow start.

In the Jbo thread everyone says his value can't be much higher because has played 1 great month then in this thread everyone says after a couple bad weeks Kippers stock has significantly lowered so which is it?
Kipper is 36 yrs old and has another year of large cap hit on the books for next year

Safe to assume his poor play will have more of an effect on value since teams will have to ask themselves is he on downswing which means that it might not be worth risk

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:01 PM
  #113
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Even if Kiprusoff returns a 1st you are probably looking at a pick on the 20-something range which is overwhelmingly more likely to turn into a Nick Foligno (or a Leland Irving ) than a Claude Giroux.

If you're tearing down your roster because you can get an extra 1st or two and a couple more prospects... well eventually you kind of have to but it is going to be tough to do it without putting out a drastically worse on ice product.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:02 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
.870 .921 .906 .920 .903 .906
Over those years total he's averaging a .910 SV%.

Not that great for a $6M goalie.

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02-19-2013, 01:02 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Even if Kiprusoff returns a 1st you are probably looking at a pick on the 20-something range which is overwhelmingly more likely to turn into a Nick Foligno (or a Leland Irving ) than a Claude Giroux.

If you're tearing down your roster because you can get an extra 1st or two and a couple more prospects... well eventually you kind of have to but it is going to be tough to do it without putting out a drastically worse on ice product.
22nd overall pick that is a poor example.

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02-19-2013, 01:04 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Over those years total he's averaging a .910 SV%.

Not that great for a $6M goalie.
Last year everyone said the only reason why the Flames aren't the worst team in the league is because of Kipper.

Now people are saying he has no value.

Which is it, HF? Or do you just change your mind whenever it benefits your argument?

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:06 PM
  #117
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22nd overall pick that is a poor example.
I think that was his point...

He said you're probably getting a 20-something pick and that getting a Giroux out of it was unlikely.

Although with as much hype as this draft is getting, it's not out of the question.

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02-19-2013, 01:07 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Kipper is 36 yrs old and has another year of large cap hit on the books for next year

Safe to assume his poor play will have more of an effect on value since teams will have to ask themselves is he on downswing which means that it might not be worth risk
So its both is what your saying

He had 5 bad games, there is no way that over shadows last.

Its all irrelevant as we most likely won't move Kipper and if we do it will be for prospects or young talent more than picks.

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02-19-2013, 01:11 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Last year everyone said the only reason why the Flames aren't the worst team in the league is because of Kipper.

Now people are saying he has no value.

Which is it, HF? Or do you just change your mind whenever it benefits your argument?
Never said he had no value.

Said he wasn't nearly worth what the OP said he was.

And the game has changed since last year. There's a lot less teams that can take on a $6M contract (Especially one that really isn't worth it) now that the cap is going back down.

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02-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I think that was his point...

He said you're probably getting a 20-something pick and that getting a Giroux out of it was unlikely.

Although with as much hype as this draft is getting, it's not out of the question.
In the last few years
Eberle, Pacioretty, B.Smith, Perron, Carlson, Del Zotto, Varlamov, Berglund

have all been 20+ picks, sure not Giroux good out all solid hockey players.

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02-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Never said he had no value.

Said he wasn't nearly worth what the OP said he was.

And the game has changed since last year. There's a lot less teams that can take on a $6M contract (Especially one that really isn't worth it) now that the cap is going back down.
We all agree he won't get what the OP said.

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02-19-2013, 01:16 PM
  #122
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If Kipper could be moved for a first that would be great for the Flames, but who knows what he could actually return because goaltenders are always tough to trade. If Calgary does a 'minor retool' that involves trading Kipper, it will soon be a full out rebuild as without Kiprussoff in net, Calgary would be tanking (intentionally or not).
That being said, I think Calgary could dismantle some pieces and rebuild in 2 years, if management finally decides to greenlight the 'retool'.

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02-19-2013, 01:18 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
In the last few years
Eberle, Pacioretty, B.Smith, Perron, Carlson, Del Zotto, Varlamov, Berglund

have all been 20+ picks, sure not Giroux good out all solid hockey players.
The first three plus Carlson are the only ones who really stand out. So one out of 10 a year isn't that high of a rate.

As I said though, this is a very deep draft.

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02-19-2013, 01:20 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
If Kipper could be moved for a first that would be great for the Flames, but who knows what he could actually return because goaltenders are always tough to trade. If Calgary does a 'minor retool' that involves trading Kipper, it will soon be a full out rebuild as without Kiprussoff in net, Calgary would be tanking (intentionally or not).
That being said, I think Calgary could dismantle some pieces and rebuild in 2 years, if management finally decides to greenlight the 'retool'.
If Calgary played an 82 game season on the pace the other 3 goalies have put up they would finish with 82 points that isn't tanking.

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02-19-2013, 01:22 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
The first three plus Carlson are the only ones who really stand out. So one out of 10 a year isn't that high of a rate.

As I said though, this is a very deep draft.
They are all stand outs.

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