HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Prospects
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

Why does SJ have the worst prospect pool?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-19-2013, 04:01 PM
  #26
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 48,635
vCash: 500
Lots of trading of picks/prospects. Constantly being slotted in the 20s because of continued success at the NHL level. A pretty iffy developmental system, and generally being pretty hit and miss with their 1st round selections.

It's a combo of a lot of things. And even though they usually turn out a good # of mid-late rounders into serviceable NHLers, it only counts for so much.

__________________

"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent."
'14-15 Sharks CI Tracker: 35 GP, 13-17-5 (home-away-Nat'l/In-Region)
Sorry, I am not taking signature requests at this time.
The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:11 PM
  #27
bottomofthefoodchain
Registered User
 
bottomofthefoodchain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 4,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
This is definitely part of it. Because the Sharks have been in win-now mode for quite a while, they've shipped out a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks as well as prospects for roster players in recent years. From 2008-2011 they only had one first rounder (Coyle who was traded) and last year they took Hertl, who I've heard nothing but good things about so far. They have a fairly decent group of D and goaltending prospects, but Pavelski and Clowe aside they flat out stink when it comes to drafting forwards, first round and otherwise.
Couture looks pretty good

bottomofthefoodchain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:23 PM
  #28
WADEugottaBELAKthat
Flynt Flossy
 
WADEugottaBELAKthat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Did I mention that..
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,478
vCash: 500
Just to summate:

2011 - No 1st Rounder
2010 - No 2nd Rounder, traded 1st Rounder (Coyle)
2009 - No 1st Rounder (two 2nd Rounders)
2008 - No 1st Rounder, No 2nd Rounder

Thatīs alot of value that has dissapeared out of the cupboards. And I agree with the OP, definitely the bottom of the basement in the league. But I hold out hope for some of the less-heralded prospects (specifically Matthew Nieto, Philip Varone, and Freddie Hamilton ... who will take 3-5 years to make it, if ever)

WADEugottaBELAKthat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:25 PM
  #29
Tkachuk4MVP
23 Years of Fail
 
Tkachuk4MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottomofthefoodchain View Post
Couture looks pretty good

Meant to throw Couture in there as well.

Tkachuk4MVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:26 PM
  #30
1972
"Craigs on it"
 
1972's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Druce View Post
Just to summate:

2011 - No 1st Rounder
2010 - No 2nd Rounder, traded 1st Rounder (Coyle)
2009 - No 1st Rounder (two 2nd Rounders)
2008 - No 1st Rounder, No 2nd Rounder

Thatīs alot of value that has dissapeared out of the cupboards. And I agree with the OP, definitely the bottom of the basement in the league. But I hold out hope for some of the less-heralded prospects (specifically Matthew Nieto, Philip Varone, and Freddie Hamilton ... who will take 3-5 years to make it, if ever)
Phil Varone? as in the Varone who the Sabres signed last season and lead the Amerks(AHL) in scoring?

1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:33 PM
  #31
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 48,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Phil Varone? as in the Varone who the Sabres signed last season and lead the Amerks(AHL) in scoring?
Yeah. the Sharks chose not to offer Varone a contract when his draft rights expired.

There still is some hope for the Sharks though. Hertl looks like a keeper. With the sheer # of goalies in the system, there's a pretty decent chance that at least one of them (Stalock and/or Sateri most likely) turns out to be something worthwhile at the NHL level. and there's some potential in the mass of mid-round and undrafted FAs they round up every year.

The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:51 PM
  #32
WADEugottaBELAKthat
Flynt Flossy
 
WADEugottaBELAKthat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Did I mention that..
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Phil Varone? as in the Varone who the Sabres signed last season and lead the Amerks(AHL) in scoring?
Touche ... my bad: have obviously not followed him that closely

But liked his game in the playoffs for the Knights a few years back.

WADEugottaBELAKthat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 04:57 PM
  #33
WesNichols14
Registered User
 
WesNichols14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Port Huron Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 1,363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Detroit has a nice prospect pool right now, but who have they graduated in recent years? The last top-6 player they graduated was Franzen in 2004? Filppula/Hudler in 2002? No one in 2001, Filppula/Flash/Hudler in 2002. They got Howard and Quincey in 2003, Franzen in 2004 (overage), Kindl (not exactly a great first round pick), Helm, and Abdelkader in 2005, Emerton in 2006, Brendan Smith in 2007, who hasn't even established himself in the NHL, Nyquist in 2008 (not an established regular), and Tatar in 2009 (not an NHL regular, and Ferraro seems like a bust at 32). That's almost a decade of not so great drafting.

In that time, the Sharks have turned out Christian Ehrhoff (top-4 defenseman, arguably top-2), Ryane Clowe (top-6 powerforward), Joe Pavelski (1st liner), Matt Carle (top-4 defenseman, arguably top-2), Marc-Edouard Vlasic (top-2 defenseman), Jamie McGinn (top-6 winger), Justin Braun (fringe top-4 defenseman), Jason Demers (fringe top-4 defenseman, still has potential), Tommy Wingels (2nd/3rd line tweener, still has potential).

So it's not like you've blown us out of the water in terms of players drafted and playing in the NHL right now. Yes, you guys have had a couple of great drafts recently, but that's more a testament to Detroit's scouts, rather than a detriment to SJ's scouts.
once a player is graduated he is no longer in the pool. so what he is saying is that your whole success thing doesn't comply, and it doesn't matter who you drafted 8-9 years ago, if they are 25 or up they aren't really prospects they're just depth support or player on your team. I agree that trading away 1st is a big part and trading away Coyle really doesn't help. oh and Ferraro is 21 idk where you got 32 from and he's not a bust at all his scoring has finally come around again and he is great defensively

WesNichols14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 05:25 PM
  #34
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 48,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wesnichols14 View Post
once a player is graduated he is no longer in the pool. so what he is saying is that your whole success thing doesn't comply, and it doesn't matter who you drafted 8-9 years ago, if they are 25 or up they aren't really prospects they're just depth support or player on your team. I agree that trading away 1st is a big part and trading away Coyle really doesn't help. oh and Ferraro is 21 idk where you got 32 from and he's not a bust at all his scoring has finally come around again and he is great defensively
I think Jux meant that he was the 32nd pick in his draft.

The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 05:56 PM
  #35
TheJuxtaposer
#Shorks
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,086
vCash: 1379
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
I think Jux meant that he was the 32nd pick in his draft.
Yes.

TheJuxtaposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 06:00 PM
  #36
Analyzer
#WeAreBoston
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 42,830
vCash: 500
Probably. They have a bad prospect pool at the expense of being a fixture in the playoffs and a threat for the cup. I'd rather be them than a team that misses the playoffs and hoards great prospects. Or worse. A team that misses the playoffs and doesn't have any good prospects.

Analyzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 06:16 PM
  #37
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,695
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNudge View Post
That's not a excuse, look at Detroit. They've been very competitve the last 20 years and counting. What do they do each year ? They found a diamond in a rough. The problem is the scout and the gm since it's is job to improve is team from the ground up.
Lets look at Detroit. Most overrated prospect pool on HF. The last players they drafted having an impact on their team right now were from 2005.

I am the Liquor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 06:48 PM
  #38
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Keep in mind that a bunch of players in their current core (Pavelski, Clowe, Demers, Vlasic, Murray) were unheralded or late round picks as well. So while they may not have the glitziest prospect pool in terms of big names, they continue to get great value from the players that they do draft.

I not-so-boldly predict that in a couple of years Konrad Abeltshauser will be the next "how did they get him so late in the draft" player on their team.
Is he really that good?

I wish he'd play in the AHL...also, I strongly suspect that Abeltshauser will be traded before he ever becomes a consistent player for the Sharks.

The current defensive core of Burns, Braun, Demers, and Vlasic is fairly set. Then, there is a logjam of players like Abeltshauser, Irwin (who is definitely NHL-ready), Doherty, and Tennyson...

OrrNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 07:05 PM
  #39
DatsyukToZetterberg
Alligator!
 
DatsyukToZetterberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Newfoundland
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Lets look at Detroit. Most overrated prospect pool on HF. The last players they drafted having an impact on their team right now were from 2005.
It's not just HF that's ranking them high either so I guess it must just be an overrated pool in the hockey world. Just for ***** and giggles, so we don't go to far OT here, who in the Wings pool is overrated?

SJ has such a poor pool because pretty much all of their high upside guys were traded away or graduated to the NHL. They also haven't had many 1st/2nd round picks in the past 3 years, the fact that they aren't the runaway worst pool shows that they do have some pretty good scouts in place there.

DatsyukToZetterberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 07:07 PM
  #40
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Grace Personified
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,229
vCash: 500
My initial, sardonic response is: Brian Kilrea retired.

Carry on with actual conversation...

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 07:37 PM
  #41
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,695
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
It's not just HF that's ranking them high either so I guess it must just be an overrated pool in the hockey world. Just for ***** and giggles, so we don't go to far OT here, who in the Wings pool is overrated?

SJ has such a poor pool because pretty much all of their high upside guys were traded away or graduated to the NHL. They also haven't had many 1st/2nd round picks in the past 3 years, the fact that they aren't the runaway worst pool shows that they do have some pretty good scouts in place there.
I seem to recall someone from around these parts ranking prospect pools and had Detroit 3rd. I believe this was in the off-season.

Completely ridiculous.

Not saying Detroit hasnt drafted well, or doesnt have some good prospects, they have and they do, but I wouldnt use them as an example like you were trying to do. Not having any regulars drafted since 2005 doesnt speak to a recent model of success.

That is coming up on eight years. That is significant.

I am the Liquor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 07:53 PM
  #42
Guru Meditation
Service Unavailable
 
Guru Meditation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Not saying Detroit hasnt drafted well, or doesnt have some good prospects, they have and they do, but I wouldnt use them as an example like you were trying to do. Not having any regulars drafted since 2005 doesnt speak to a recent model of success.

That is coming up on eight years. That is significant.
Do you think the Wings' prospect pool has been of uniform quality during that time? That seems to be the assumption.

In reality, it works more like this:

2006-2008 (or so): BAD BAD BAD (except for Nyquist and Smith)
2009-2012: REALLY REALLY GOOD

This leaves us with the net effect of having many very good prospects in the Detroit Red Wings system right now while still having had a significant dry spell. We also have to account for the fact that Kenny Holland doesn't like his prospects to touch NHL ice until at least 22, no matter how good they are.

Guru Meditation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 08:10 PM
  #43
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,695
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Do you think the Wings' prospect pool has been of uniform quality during that time? That seems to be the assumption.

In reality, it works more like this:

2006-2008 (or so): BAD BAD BAD (except for Nyquist and Smith)
2009-2012: REALLY REALLY GOOD

This leaves us with the net effect of having many very good prospects in the Detroit Red Wings system right now while still having had a significant dry spell. We also have to account for the fact that Kenny Holland doesn't like his prospects to touch NHL ice until at least 22, no matter how good they are.
That remains to be seen.

2010 and 2011 looks pretty good. 2009 and 2012 doesnt look to be anything special.

Fact of the matter is if you havent turned out an nhl player on your roster for the last eight years of drafting, its pretty specious to be calling them one of the best prospect pools.

I am the Liquor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 12:09 AM
  #44
DatsyukToZetterberg
Alligator!
 
DatsyukToZetterberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Newfoundland
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
That remains to be seen.

2010 and 2011 looks pretty good. 2009 and 2012 doesnt look to be anything special.

Fact of the matter is if you havent turned out an nhl player on your roster for the last eight years of drafting, its pretty specious to be calling them one of the best prospect pools.
Well that's not true really, we haven't produced any stars in that period but we have most definitely produced NHL talent. From 04 we got Franzen, 05 produced Kindl, Abdelkader & Helm, 06 brought in Emmerton, Matthias & Mursak, 07 had us get Smith & Andersson & 08 will only give us Nyquist. So from 04-08 we got 10 NHL players out of 34 picks, that's 29% of the picks in that span became NHL regulars. Mind you 6 or 7 of the players will be bottom sixers, with really only 1 or 2 possibly being in the top 6, 1 isn't even with the Wings anymore & we only produced 1 defenceman but who's counting .

You won't find many Wing fans that will argue that the wings had a good period before 09, but all we ask is that people try to look at it with an unbiased eye.

/End OT comment

DatsyukToZetterberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 12:56 AM
  #45
Anchor Town
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Fact of the matter is if you havent turned out an nhl player on your roster for the last eight years of drafting, its pretty specious to be calling them one of the best prospect pools.
This makes no sense. We're talking about Detroit's current prospect pool, which by definition wouldn't have any players graduated to the NHL yet.

Anchor Town is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 01:23 AM
  #46
crazy Kassian
The North Remembers
 
crazy Kassian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,591
vCash: 500
Disagree with poor scouting/drafting/developing

I'd say they're more than fine in those departments

They stole Couture it was pretty funny to watch

crazy Kassian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 01:36 AM
  #47
danishh
Dat Stache
 
danishh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: mtl/ott/somewhere
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,710
vCash: 500
because they've been a playoff team/contender for about a decade.

not every team can have late-round scouting like detroit.

danishh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 01:42 AM
  #48
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 19,208
vCash: 500
Lack of picks and Wilson tends to trade away some of those guys in deadline and summer deals. In spite of that, they still have many players on their roster that were developed internally. I can't really fault Wilson for anything. I see a lot of what he and Lombardi started doing in this division in the way that Anaheim and Phoenix have been run. You're even starting to see it with Dallas.

Exit Dose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 01:45 AM
  #49
Guru Meditation
Service Unavailable
 
Guru Meditation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Ferraro seems like a bust at 32
It's worth noting that Ferraro has had a very good season so far and appears to be back on track. He's looking like an energy guy with scoring ability, especially on the PK. Last I checked, he led the AHL in SHG.

Guru Meditation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 01:45 AM
  #50
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,695
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Well that's not true really, we haven't produced any stars in that period but we have most definitely produced NHL talent. From 04 we got Franzen, 05 produced Kindl, Abdelkader & Helm, 06 brought in Emmerton, Matthias & Mursak, 07 had us get Smith & Andersson & 08 will only give us Nyquist. So from 04-08 we got 10 NHL players out of 34 picks, that's 29% of the picks in that span became NHL regulars. Mind you 6 or 7 of the players will be bottom sixers, with really only 1 or 2 possibly being in the top 6, 1 isn't even with the Wings anymore & we only produced 1 defenceman but who's counting .

You won't find many Wing fans that will argue that the wings had a good period before 09, but all we ask is that people try to look at it with an unbiased eye.

/End OT comment
First off, I said since 2005, which means after, so forget about Franzen, Abdelkader and the rest from those two years. Mathias isnt with the organization anymore, so he is no longer a Wing prospect and hasnt been for some time and the others you mentioned are NOT NHL regulars yet.

I have no dog in this fight, I dont really care one way or the other, which is the definition of unbiased.

I disagreed with the assertion that the Wings have maintained a top prospect pool while being cup contenders. That isnt the case over the last several years, as I have demonstrated.

I am the Liquor is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:36 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. Đ2014 All Rights Reserved.