Lots of trading of picks/prospects. Constantly being slotted in the 20s because of continued success at the NHL level. A pretty iffy developmental system, and generally being pretty hit and miss with their 1st round selections.
It's a combo of a lot of things. And even though they usually turn out a good # of mid-late rounders into serviceable NHLers, it only counts for so much.
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This is definitely part of it. Because the Sharks have been in win-now mode for quite a while, they've shipped out a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks as well as prospects for roster players in recent years. From 2008-2011 they only had one first rounder (Coyle who was traded) and last year they took Hertl, who I've heard nothing but good things about so far. They have a fairly decent group of D and goaltending prospects, but Pavelski and Clowe aside they flat out stink when it comes to drafting forwards, first round and otherwise.
2011 - No 1st Rounder
2010 - No 2nd Rounder, traded 1st Rounder (Coyle)
2009 - No 1st Rounder (two 2nd Rounders)
2008 - No 1st Rounder, No 2nd Rounder
Thatīs alot of value that has dissapeared out of the cupboards. And I agree with the OP, definitely the bottom of the basement in the league. But I hold out hope for some of the less-heralded prospects (specifically Matthew Nieto, Philip Varone, and Freddie Hamilton ... who will take 3-5 years to make it, if ever)
2011 - No 1st Rounder
2010 - No 2nd Rounder, traded 1st Rounder (Coyle)
2009 - No 1st Rounder (two 2nd Rounders)
2008 - No 1st Rounder, No 2nd Rounder
Thatīs alot of value that has dissapeared out of the cupboards. And I agree with the OP, definitely the bottom of the basement in the league. But I hold out hope for some of the less-heralded prospects (specifically Matthew Nieto, Philip Varone, and Freddie Hamilton ... who will take 3-5 years to make it, if ever)
Phil Varone? as in the Varone who the Sabres signed last season and lead the Amerks(AHL) in scoring?
Phil Varone? as in the Varone who the Sabres signed last season and lead the Amerks(AHL) in scoring?
Yeah. the Sharks chose not to offer Varone a contract when his draft rights expired.
There still is some hope for the Sharks though. Hertl looks like a keeper. With the sheer # of goalies in the system, there's a pretty decent chance that at least one of them (Stalock and/or Sateri most likely) turns out to be something worthwhile at the NHL level. and there's some potential in the mass of mid-round and undrafted FAs they round up every year.
Detroit has a nice prospect pool right now, but who have they graduated in recent years? The last top-6 player they graduated was Franzen in 2004? Filppula/Hudler in 2002? No one in 2001, Filppula/Flash/Hudler in 2002. They got Howard and Quincey in 2003, Franzen in 2004 (overage), Kindl (not exactly a great first round pick), Helm, and Abdelkader in 2005, Emerton in 2006, Brendan Smith in 2007, who hasn't even established himself in the NHL, Nyquist in 2008 (not an established regular), and Tatar in 2009 (not an NHL regular, and Ferraro seems like a bust at 32). That's almost a decade of not so great drafting.
In that time, the Sharks have turned out Christian Ehrhoff (top-4 defenseman, arguably top-2), Ryane Clowe (top-6 powerforward), Joe Pavelski (1st liner), Matt Carle (top-4 defenseman, arguably top-2), Marc-Edouard Vlasic (top-2 defenseman), Jamie McGinn (top-6 winger), Justin Braun (fringe top-4 defenseman), Jason Demers (fringe top-4 defenseman, still has potential), Tommy Wingels (2nd/3rd line tweener, still has potential).
So it's not like you've blown us out of the water in terms of players drafted and playing in the NHL right now. Yes, you guys have had a couple of great drafts recently, but that's more a testament to Detroit's scouts, rather than a detriment to SJ's scouts.
once a player is graduated he is no longer in the pool. so what he is saying is that your whole success thing doesn't comply, and it doesn't matter who you drafted 8-9 years ago, if they are 25 or up they aren't really prospects they're just depth support or player on your team. I agree that trading away 1st is a big part and trading away Coyle really doesn't help. oh and Ferraro is 21 idk where you got 32 from and he's not a bust at all his scoring has finally come around again and he is great defensively
once a player is graduated he is no longer in the pool. so what he is saying is that your whole success thing doesn't comply, and it doesn't matter who you drafted 8-9 years ago, if they are 25 or up they aren't really prospects they're just depth support or player on your team. I agree that trading away 1st is a big part and trading away Coyle really doesn't help. oh and Ferraro is 21 idk where you got 32 from and he's not a bust at all his scoring has finally come around again and he is great defensively
I think Jux meant that he was the 32nd pick in his draft.
Probably. They have a bad prospect pool at the expense of being a fixture in the playoffs and a threat for the cup. I'd rather be them than a team that misses the playoffs and hoards great prospects. Or worse. A team that misses the playoffs and doesn't have any good prospects.
That's not a excuse, look at Detroit. They've been very competitve the last 20 years and counting. What do they do each year ? They found a diamond in a rough. The problem is the scout and the gm since it's is job to improve is team from the ground up.
Lets look at Detroit. Most overrated prospect pool on HF. The last players they drafted having an impact on their team right now were from 2005.
Keep in mind that a bunch of players in their current core (Pavelski, Clowe, Demers, Vlasic, Murray) were unheralded or late round picks as well. So while they may not have the glitziest prospect pool in terms of big names, they continue to get great value from the players that they do draft.
I not-so-boldly predict that in a couple of years Konrad Abeltshauser will be the next "how did they get him so late in the draft" player on their team.
Is he really that good?
I wish he'd play in the AHL...also, I strongly suspect that Abeltshauser will be traded before he ever becomes a consistent player for the Sharks.
The current defensive core of Burns, Braun, Demers, and Vlasic is fairly set. Then, there is a logjam of players like Abeltshauser, Irwin (who is definitely NHL-ready), Doherty, and Tennyson...
Lets look at Detroit. Most overrated prospect pool on HF. The last players they drafted having an impact on their team right now were from 2005.
It's not just HF that's ranking them high either so I guess it must just be an overrated pool in the hockey world. Just for ***** and giggles, so we don't go to far OT here, who in the Wings pool is overrated?
SJ has such a poor pool because pretty much all of their high upside guys were traded away or graduated to the NHL. They also haven't had many 1st/2nd round picks in the past 3 years, the fact that they aren't the runaway worst pool shows that they do have some pretty good scouts in place there.
It's not just HF that's ranking them high either so I guess it must just be an overrated pool in the hockey world. Just for ***** and giggles, so we don't go to far OT here, who in the Wings pool is overrated?
SJ has such a poor pool because pretty much all of their high upside guys were traded away or graduated to the NHL. They also haven't had many 1st/2nd round picks in the past 3 years, the fact that they aren't the runaway worst pool shows that they do have some pretty good scouts in place there.
I seem to recall someone from around these parts ranking prospect pools and had Detroit 3rd. I believe this was in the off-season.
Completely ridiculous.
Not saying Detroit hasnt drafted well, or doesnt have some good prospects, they have and they do, but I wouldnt use them as an example like you were trying to do. Not having any regulars drafted since 2005 doesnt speak to a recent model of success.
That is coming up on eight years. That is significant.
Not saying Detroit hasnt drafted well, or doesnt have some good prospects, they have and they do, but I wouldnt use them as an example like you were trying to do. Not having any regulars drafted since 2005 doesnt speak to a recent model of success.
That is coming up on eight years. That is significant.
Do you think the Wings' prospect pool has been of uniform quality during that time? That seems to be the assumption.
In reality, it works more like this:
2006-2008 (or so): BAD BAD BAD (except for Nyquist and Smith)
2009-2012: REALLY REALLY GOOD
This leaves us with the net effect of having many very good prospects in the Detroit Red Wings system right now while still having had a significant dry spell. We also have to account for the fact that Kenny Holland doesn't like his prospects to touch NHL ice until at least 22, no matter how good they are.
Do you think the Wings' prospect pool has been of uniform quality during that time? That seems to be the assumption.
In reality, it works more like this:
2006-2008 (or so): BAD BAD BAD (except for Nyquist and Smith) 2009-2012: REALLY REALLY GOOD
This leaves us with the net effect of having many very good prospects in the Detroit Red Wings system right now while still having had a significant dry spell. We also have to account for the fact that Kenny Holland doesn't like his prospects to touch NHL ice until at least 22, no matter how good they are.
That remains to be seen.
2010 and 2011 looks pretty good. 2009 and 2012 doesnt look to be anything special.
Fact of the matter is if you havent turned out an nhl player on your roster for the last eight years of drafting, its pretty specious to be calling them one of the best prospect pools.
2010 and 2011 looks pretty good. 2009 and 2012 doesnt look to be anything special.
Fact of the matter is if you havent turned out an nhl player on your roster for the last eight years of drafting, its pretty specious to be calling them one of the best prospect pools.
Well that's not true really, we haven't produced any stars in that period but we have most definitely produced NHL talent. From 04 we got Franzen, 05 produced Kindl, Abdelkader & Helm, 06 brought in Emmerton, Matthias & Mursak, 07 had us get Smith & Andersson & 08 will only give us Nyquist. So from 04-08 we got 10 NHL players out of 34 picks, that's 29% of the picks in that span became NHL regulars. Mind you 6 or 7 of the players will be bottom sixers, with really only 1 or 2 possibly being in the top 6, 1 isn't even with the Wings anymore & we only produced 1 defenceman but who's counting .
You won't find many Wing fans that will argue that the wings had a good period before 09, but all we ask is that people try to look at it with an unbiased eye.
Fact of the matter is if you havent turned out an nhl player on your roster for the last eight years of drafting, its pretty specious to be calling them one of the best prospect pools.
This makes no sense. We're talking about Detroit's current prospect pool, which by definition wouldn't have any players graduated to the NHL yet.
Lack of picks and Wilson tends to trade away some of those guys in deadline and summer deals. In spite of that, they still have many players on their roster that were developed internally. I can't really fault Wilson for anything. I see a lot of what he and Lombardi started doing in this division in the way that Anaheim and Phoenix have been run. You're even starting to see it with Dallas.
It's worth noting that Ferraro has had a very good season so far and appears to be back on track. He's looking like an energy guy with scoring ability, especially on the PK. Last I checked, he led the AHL in SHG.
Well that's not true really, we haven't produced any stars in that period but we have most definitely produced NHL talent. From 04 we got Franzen, 05 produced Kindl, Abdelkader & Helm, 06 brought in Emmerton, Matthias & Mursak, 07 had us get Smith & Andersson & 08 will only give us Nyquist. So from 04-08 we got 10 NHL players out of 34 picks, that's 29% of the picks in that span became NHL regulars. Mind you 6 or 7 of the players will be bottom sixers, with really only 1 or 2 possibly being in the top 6, 1 isn't even with the Wings anymore & we only produced 1 defenceman but who's counting .
You won't find many Wing fans that will argue that the wings had a good period before 09, but all we ask is that people try to look at it with an unbiased eye.
/End OT comment
First off, I said since 2005, which means after, so forget about Franzen, Abdelkader and the rest from those two years. Mathias isnt with the organization anymore, so he is no longer a Wing prospect and hasnt been for some time and the others you mentioned are NOT NHL regulars yet.
I have no dog in this fight, I dont really care one way or the other, which is the definition of unbiased.
I disagreed with the assertion that the Wings have maintained a top prospect pool while being cup contenders. That isnt the case over the last several years, as I have demonstrated.
