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Giroux vs Zetterberg

View Poll Results: Who would you pick?
Giroux 64 47.41%
Zetterberg 71 52.59%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:03 PM
  #76
TradeBait
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Why would you assume it was a fluke and he can't produce at or very close to that level consistently when he was only 24? All his seasons prior were developmental seasons, hell, there was a bigger jump from his 2009-2010 campaign to his 2010-2011 campaign than there was from his 2011-2012 campaign to his 2011-2012 campaign.

Seeing as how this is Giroux vs Zetterberg, let's use Zetterberg as a comparison.

Zetterberg's best season prior to his breakout year was 43 points in 61 games (0.70PPG). When he was 25, he broke-out and scored 85 points in 77 games (1.10PPG).

Giroux's best season prior to 2011-2012 was 76 points in 82 games (0.93PPG). When he was 24, he broke-out and scored 93 points in 77 games (1.23PPG).

Zetterberg had a higher jump, and he was a year older, yet clearly he has been able to maintain a similar pace and even exceed it. This isn't unusual either. Not ever player is Sidney Crosby and scores 100+ points in his first season, the vast majority of players see an increase in production around that age.


I really don't get where you're coming from in thinking that Giroux improving at that age is some fluke thing that can't be repeated. I think it's more likely that Giroux has a season better than his 2011-2012 campaign than it is that he never approaches it again.
If you want to determine whether or not Giroux is capable of consistently producing over 90 points by comparing his career to other players then it only makes sense to use players who consistently produce over 90 points.

Crosby:
1st season- 81GP 39G 63A
2nd season- 79GP 36G 84A
3rd season- 53 GP 24G 48A

Malkin:
1st season- 78GP 33G 52A
2nd season- 82GP 47G 59A
3rd season- 82GP 35G 78A

Ovechkin:
1st season- 81GP 52G 54A
2nd season- 82GP 46G 46A
3rd season- 82GP 65G 47A

Stamkos:
1st season- 79GP 23G 23A
2nd season- 82GP 51G 44A
3rd season- 82GP 45G 46A

Finally Giroux...

1st season- 2GP 0G 0A
2nd season- 42GP 9G 18A
3rd season- 82GP 16G 31A
4th season- 82GP 25G 51A

Sure it's tough to compare him to those players but that's what you need to do if you're claiming he's part of that extremely small group.

Now I know Giroux is trending upwards but it takes something special to be a consistent 90+ point producer and it's pretty obvious that so far Giroux has shown he doesn't have what it takes. That seems to upset a lot of people but if we use common sense Giroux's career so far in no way points to him being in that elite group.

When it comes down to it, people who think Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently are basing their expectations purely on a single season performance and are lying to themselves if they say the rest of his career indicates it.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:05 PM
  #77
Sergei Shirokov
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Giroux for sure.

Can't believe Zetterberg is winning this. HF golden boy.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:16 PM
  #78
blinds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
If you want to determine whether or not Giroux is capable of consistently producing over 90 points by comparing his career to other players then it only makes sense to use players who consistently produce over 90 points.

Crosby:
1st season- 81GP 39G 63A
2nd season- 79GP 36G 84A
3rd season- 53 GP 24G 48A

Malkin:
1st season- 78GP 33G 52A
2nd season- 82GP 47G 59A
3rd season- 82GP 35G 78A

Ovechkin:
1st season- 81GP 52G 54A
2nd season- 82GP 46G 46A
3rd season- 82GP 65G 47A

Stamkos:
1st season- 79GP 23G 23A
2nd season- 82GP 51G 44A
3rd season- 82GP 45G 46A

Finally Giroux...

1st season- 2GP 0G 0A
2nd season- 42GP 9G 18A
3rd season- 82GP 16G 31A
4th season- 82GP 25G 51A

Sure it's tough to compare him to those players but that's what you need to do if you're claiming he's part of that extremely small group.

Now I know Giroux is trending upwards but it takes something special to be a consistent 90+ point producer and it's pretty obvious that so far Giroux has shown he doesn't have what it takes. That seems to upset a lot of people but if we use common sense Giroux's career so far in no way points to him being in that elite group.

When it comes down to it, people who think Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently are basing their expectations purely on a single season performance and are lying to themselves if they say the rest of his career indicates it.
That's pretty damn misleading, and not just because Giroux's first 2 seasons barely equal half a season together.. he didn't get nearly the ice time or opportunity those other players did because he wasn't regarded as the same kind of talent at that point in his career, he had to earn his ice time and play with lesser linemates. Just because those players walked into the league as stars doesn't mean every great player does.. Look at Datsyuk's career. Or Zetterberg's, which is a little more relevant to this discussion. They didn't start producing right away either. The fact is, Giroux started at the bottom, and as his talent became apparent he was given more and more opportunities, which he took and exceeded expectations until room was made and he was given a leading role in the team last year, and look what he did.

It's unfair to compare his first seasons in the league to players who were firsts overall and walked into the NHL with the expectation that they would be stars, and thus given the opportunity to become that from the get-go.

I'm not sure where to find it, but who did all those players play with in their early years? Crosby played with Lemeiux, Stamkos with MSL. Try comparing that to Giroux.


Last edited by blinds: 02-18-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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Old
02-18-2013, 11:37 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
If you want to determine whether or not Giroux is capable of consistently producing over 90 points by comparing his career to other players then it only makes sense to use players who consistently produce over 90 points.

Crosby:
1st season- 81GP 39G 63A
2nd season- 79GP 36G 84A
3rd season- 53 GP 24G 48A

Malkin:
1st season- 78GP 33G 52A
2nd season- 82GP 47G 59A
3rd season- 82GP 35G 78A

Ovechkin:
1st season- 81GP 52G 54A
2nd season- 82GP 46G 46A
3rd season- 82GP 65G 47A

Stamkos:
1st season- 79GP 23G 23A
2nd season- 82GP 51G 44A
3rd season- 82GP 45G 46A

Finally Giroux...

1st season- 2GP 0G 0A
2nd season- 42GP 9G 18A
3rd season- 82GP 16G 31A
4th season- 82GP 25G 51A

Sure it's tough to compare him to those players but that's what you need to do if you're claiming he's part of that extremely small group.

Now I know Giroux is trending upwards but it takes something special to be a consistent 90+ point producer and it's pretty obvious that so far Giroux has shown he doesn't have what it takes. That seems to upset a lot of people but if we use common sense Giroux's career so far in no way points to him being in that elite group.

When it comes down to it, people who think Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently are basing their expectations purely on a single season performance and are lying to themselves if they say the rest of his career indicates it.
The first 3 guys on your list are top-15 in the history of the NHL in points per game and Steven Stamkos has scored more goals than anyone not named Gretzky at his age. Yes, clearly Giroux has to stack up to these guys to be able to produce 90 points a year consistently. What a joke.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:41 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinds View Post
That's pretty damn misleading, and not just because Giroux's first 2 seasons barely equal half a season together..
The games played were included for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blinds View Post
he didn't get nearly the ice time or opportunity those other players did because he wasn't regarded as the same kind of talent at that point in his career, he had to earn his ice time and play with lesser linemates.
Are you serious right now? Do you think NHL coaching are stupid? It doesn't matter whether you're a #1 overall or a 7th rounder, if you're on the team they evaluate based on your skill and you play the corresponding role. If Giroux was capable of putting those numbers or even playing on the first line then he would have. There are plenty of people who get paid good money to make sure you're role on the team is in line with your skill level. The reason Giroux didn't put up Crosby's numbers isn't because he "wasn't regarded as the same kind of talent" but because he wasn't capable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blinds View Post
Just because those players walked into the league as stars doesn't mean every great player does.. Look at Datsyuk's career. Or Zetterberg's, which is a little more relevant to this discussion. They didn't start producing right away either. The fact is, Giroux started at the bottom, and as his talent became apparent he was given more and more opportunities, which he took and exceeded expectations until room was made and he was given a leading role in the team last year, and look what he did.
I agree completely, we should look at Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They aren't 90+ players, they're 70+ players, and that's exactly what Giroux is IMO. The difference between 70+ and 90+ points is night and day really.

Giroux is one of the better players in the league... yes, he will but up pretty damn good numbers... yes; he is in an offensive class with Crosby Malkin and Stamkos... no, his career so far doesn't indicate that at all.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:54 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
The games played were included for a reason.



Are you serious right now? Do you think NHL coaching are stupid? It doesn't matter whether you're a #1 overall or a 7th rounder, if you're on the team they evaluate based on your skill and you play the corresponding role. If Giroux was capable of putting those numbers or even playing on the first line then he would have. There are plenty of people who get paid good money to make sure you're role on the team is in line with your skill level. The reason Giroux didn't put up Crosby's numbers isn't because he "wasn't regarded as the same kind of talent" but because he wasn't capable.



I agree completely, we should look at Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They aren't 90+ players, they're 70+ players, and that's exactly what Giroux is IMO. The difference between 70+ and 90+ points is night and day really.

Giroux is one of the better players in the league... yes, he will but up pretty damn good numbers... yes; he is in an offensive class with Crosby Malkin and Stamkos... no, his career so far doesn't indicate that at all.
That's exactly what happened, they realized Giroux's talent and thats why they were able to move Richards and Carter. Giroux didn't have the room when we had our top two lines of Carter - Richards - Gagne and Hartnell - Briere - Leino eating up all the ice time, and they weren't going to replace anyone on those lines because of the role they played (Richards line face of the franchise) and the chemistry they had (Briere line was dominant at the time), but Giroux still managed to put up the numbers he did even with 3rd line ice time. Why risk replacing a solid player, and team captain like Richards, or proven veteran like Briere, with an unproven, but talented, third liner like Giroux? They let him grow, and when they realized his potential they made room.

Datsyuk put up a couple 90+ and high 80 point seasons, but he was just the first player I could think of that had to prove his talent in the league before given the opportunity to put up those kind of numbers. The point is it's not unusual for a great player to take time to develop, they aren't all 90+ players at age 18. Also, all four of those players are prolific goal scorers, Giroux isn't; I'd argue it takes more time for a playmaker like Giroux to come into his own, and it requires the linemates to do so.

I'm not saying Giroux will be a consistent 90+ point player, maybe he will maybe he won't. I'm saying its too early to declare last season a fluke or peak, when every year since he's come into the league hes continued to improve, given progressively larger opportunities and exceeded expectations at every turn. Maybe he's peaked, maybe last season was a fluke brought out by Jagr, nobody knows yet because he's still in the prime of his career and there's really no evidence yet to suggest he'll regress to a 70+ point player. In my opinion though, I think how much he produces will depend on the players surrounding him, and if Flyers management can get him a proven goal scoring winger, say Perry or Ryan, he could consistently put up 90+ points for multiple seasons down the road. Look what he did with Hartnell. He isn't Crosby who can do it regardless of the people around him, few players are. Even Stamkos and Ovechkin have had Backstrom and MSL helping them.


Last edited by blinds: 02-19-2013 at 12:01 AM.
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Old
02-18-2013, 11:58 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Giroux for sure.

Can't believe Zetterberg is winning this. HF golden boy.
Zetterberg is probably the most underrated player in the league on HF.

Go take a look at the "Is Tavares a top 10 player?" thread and see how many lists completely omit him, despite the fact he's been top five or ten in scoring all season and playing Selke defense.

You watch people list off top player, and it's like Zetterberg doesn't even exist anymore. Kind of like how Lidstrom and Bourque didn't get mentioned by a lot of fans as top defensemen at the end of their careers, even though they had high Norris finishes and strong seasons. It's like they just faded away.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:58 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
The first 3 guys on your list are top-15 in the history of the NHL in points per game and Steven Stamkos has scored more goals than anyone not named Gretzky at his age. Yes, clearly Giroux has to stack up to these guys to be able to produce 90 points a year consistently. What a joke.
How is this a joke? Those are the players that produce 90+ points consistently, so those are the players Giroux should be compared to if you claim he belongs in that group... if I missed anyone let me know. Even Henrik Sedin has only made it over 90 twice, which is not exactly consistent, hopefully that helps you realise just how crazy your claim is.

Don't worry, I find it laughable too , the difference is I laugh at it and then realise there's no way Giroux belongs in that group. You laugh at it and then for no justified reason say he belongs there anyway.

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:04 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
If you want to determine whether or not Giroux is capable of consistently producing over 90 points by comparing his career to other players then it only makes sense to use players who consistently produce over 90 points.

Crosby:
1st season- 81GP 39G 63A
2nd season- 79GP 36G 84A
3rd season- 53 GP 24G 48A

Malkin:
1st season- 78GP 33G 52A
2nd season- 82GP 47G 59A
3rd season- 82GP 35G 78A

Ovechkin:
1st season- 81GP 52G 54A
2nd season- 82GP 46G 46A
3rd season- 82GP 65G 47A

Stamkos:
1st season- 79GP 23G 23A
2nd season- 82GP 51G 44A
3rd season- 82GP 45G 46A

Finally Giroux...

1st season- 2GP 0G 0A
2nd season- 42GP 9G 18A
3rd season- 82GP 16G 31A
4th season- 82GP 25G 51A

Sure it's tough to compare him to those players but that's what you need to do if you're claiming he's part of that extremely small group.

Now I know Giroux is trending upwards but it takes something special to be a consistent 90+ point producer and it's pretty obvious that so far Giroux has shown he doesn't have what it takes. That seems to upset a lot of people but if we use common sense Giroux's career so far in no way points to him being in that elite group.

When it comes down to it, people who think Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently are basing their expectations purely on a single season performance and are lying to themselves if they say the rest of his career indicates it.
Actually we compare it to seeing him play for the past few seasons. I've been watching the Flyers for a long time and I've seen every superstar thats been on this team in recent years and Giroux is by far the most talented and well balanced player. That includes Forsberg. Now while Peter was at the end of his career He is definitely in the category of Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin.

Because what he did to the penguins in the playoffs was pure domination. He can carry a team on his back and that is something only a very few players can do. Dustin Brown showed glimpses of it on a cup run. But Giroux has proven the be that guy here even when he only put up 46pts on a very deep team where he played 3rd line center behind Carter and Richards...I don't care what the stats say he is something special.

Proof, these are elite player points where you see how much he does to carry the play and how the game follows him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbFrqm8gSqc

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:08 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
The first 3 guys on your list are top-15 in the history of the NHL in points per game and Steven Stamkos has scored more goals than anyone not named Gretzky at his age. Yes, clearly Giroux has to stack up to these guys to be able to produce 90 points a year consistently. What a joke.
If hes going to be considered a consistent 90 point type of player, yeah he should be compared to those guys. Who else is a consistent 90 point player in the league?

After the start to this season I'm not surprised people are picking Zetterberg. Hes been a consistent selke level defensive guy for a while and consistent point per game playerfor 8 seasons now.

Giroux isnt a one dimensional player but hes not all that close defensively to Zetterberg either. People picking Zetterberg shouldnt be that surprising but I wouldnt expect everyone to pick him either.

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02-19-2013, 12:21 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
If hes going to be considered a consistent 90 point type of player, yeah he should be compared to those guys. Who else is a consistent 90 point player in the league?

After the start to this season I'm not surprised people are picking Zetterberg. Hes been a consistent selke level defensive guy for a while and consistent point per game playerfor 8 seasons now.

Giroux isnt a one dimensional player but hes not all that close defensively to Zetterberg either. People picking Zetterberg shouldnt be that surprising but I wouldnt expect everyone to pick him either.
What you say about Giroux is completely untrue and makes me wonder if you've even seen him in a game. . Giroux is far from a one dimensional player.

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:25 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by HighOFFHockey View Post
What you say about Giroux is completely untrue and makes me wonder if you've even seen him in a game. . Giroux is far from a one dimensional player.
He said he's not one-dimensional, it was the other guy saying he is.

But I think people underestimate Giroux's defensive abilities.. He's been put in a more offensive role, but he's really an exceptional defensive forward too. Occasional positional lapses, and sometimes caught lazy on the backcheck but better than those 90+ point players he's being compared to.. but also not on the level of Zetterberg.

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02-19-2013, 12:33 AM
  #88
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What you say about Giroux is completely untrue and makes me wonder if you've even seen him in a game. . Giroux is far from a one dimensional player.
Read what I said again. Hes not one dimensional but thats a different thing than being one of the top defensive players in the game. Its unclear if Giroux has an offensive edge at all and Zetterberg has a clear defensive edge for sure. Zetterbergs also been one of the NHLs best playoff/clutch players over the past few years.

Giroux is a decent two way player and had 1 huge offensive season but is starting this year pretty slow. Taking the proven guy in Zetterberg who is also outperforming now isnt a stretch at all

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02-19-2013, 01:20 AM
  #89
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No I agree, I just don't think he'll necessarily regress. I think he could have a couple more 90+ point seasons in him, especially if they find a goal scoring winger for him (Perry or Ryan have been thrown around on Flyers board). I could even see him getting a 100+ season if everything goes right. Also worth mentioning his 93 was in 77 games.
No, no. I agree. I don't think he'll regress from being a PpG player. He's bound to have a "down" season or two but it seems reasonable to expect him to be a PpG player in most seasons.

And yes, he'll likely have seasons where he scores at a higher clip than that and he may score 100 points.

I just think that, for the most part, last season was a year where alot of things went right for Giroux. The difference between having a great season and having a "down" year can be, at times, as simple as a little puck luck. I use Patrick Kane as a prime example of that. The Hawks PP was awful and numerous, grade-A chances created by him throughout the season went unfinished. Had he had a little more luck, you're likely looking at another PpG season for Kane - as he's looking like he'll do this year.

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02-19-2013, 02:43 AM
  #90
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That's pretty damn misleading, and not just because Giroux's first 2 seasons barely equal half a season together.. he didn't get nearly the ice time or opportunity those other players did because he wasn't regarded as the same kind of talent at that point in his career, he had to earn his ice time and play with lesser linemates. Just because those players walked into the league as stars doesn't mean every great player does.. Look at Datsyuk's career. Or Zetterberg's, which is a little more relevant to this discussion. They didn't start producing right away either.
This is precisely his point, though. Zetterberg's not Stamkos. Insofar as he could have been argued to have been among the top 5 or so forwards in the game, it would have been for a very, very short time, whereas many, if not most people would have had Stamkos as among that group for up to 3 years and counting.

As good as Zetterberg is, he's simply a different (lesser) class of player than Stamkos. Zetterberg might have had 90-ish points once or twice, but certainly isn't going to have 91 points in an off-year because he's just not that type of player.

Are you seeing where this is going?


Quote:
I'm not sure where to find it, but who did all those players play with in their early years? Crosby played with Lemeiux, Stamkos with MSL. Try comparing that to Giroux.
Mario Lemieux played 20 games on a different line than Crosby (badly, I might add), then retired due to a heart condition that was the cause of his poor play.

Crosby=Andy Hilbert, Thomas Surovy, Eric Christensen, Colby Armstrong, an old Marc Recchi and Marian Hossa (for, I think, 1-ish regular season game). In other words, 3 minor leaguers, a bum, an over-the-hill, undersized guy in the twilight of a hall of fame career (though his twilight was long) and the then-best right wing in the NHL (for 15 or so regular season minutes).

Malkin=Michel Ouellet (who?), Maxim Talbot, Ruslan Fedotenko, Ryan Malone and Peter Sykora. 2 grinders, an emerging power forward and an over-the-hill sniper.

Ovechkin's=Chris Clarke, Jeff Halpern, Matt Bradley, Ben Clymer and Dainus Zubrus, Backstrom (OVs third year NB was a rookie) and an ancient Mike Knuble. In other words, 4 pluggers, a journeyman, one season of one 4th overall pick and a beaten down net-front presence who had no legs.

Stamkos=St Louis first two big years, then Purcell, Downie and Malone without missing a beat production-wise. A very elite forward, two journeymen and (by the time he was put with Stamkos) a banged up powerforward.

Giroux=Asham, Powe (1st season); 2nd on it was some combination of Leino, Richards, JVR, Gagne, Hartnell Jagr. 2 4th liners, a top 6 bum, a 2nd overall pick, 3 all stars and an old legend.

In order of worst to best linemates in their first 3 or 4 full-ish seasons, we have

Ovechkin~Crosby<Malkin<Stamkos<Giroux.

By 09/10, the "third wheel" on Giroux's line was better than anybody any of the other 4 guys have been accustomed to in the same role, which persisted until this present season.

So no, the argument that Giroux didn't get going as fast as those three because he was gimped on linemates in comparison to them doesn't fly. The argument that he didn't get going as fast because he's not one of them makes a lot more sense.

This is why it's more reasonable to compare him to Zetterberg. Maybe once in a blue moon he might sniff at 90, but you'll lose less money if you bet something in the 70s. Throwing him in with the (Malkin/Stamkos/Crosby sucked last year...he only had 87/91/102 points) crowd is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

That people like yourself, Peter Laviolette or this Sasso character mention Giroux's name in the same breath with your Malkins/Stamkos/Crosbys creates exactly the sort of unreasonable expectations that make outsiders think Giroux's dogging it or unready for leadership when he's not on pace for the type of numbers those guys are assumed to produce each and every year.

The perception that CG shouldn't be a captain or is playing lazy is, in my opinion, completely false. Far as I'm concerned, Giroux's wearing the captaincy just fine and doing the best he can with what he's got to work with this year.

But that's probably because I've never locked him in the treehouse with the rest of the "Hart/Rockey/Ross trophy or he sucked that year" club (Crosby, Stamkos, OV, Malkin).

He's a first line forward. He's just not them. It's unfair to put him on the pedestal they sit because he'll look awful grimy in comparison, when all is said and done.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:16 AM
  #91
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if i were planning 4 or 5 years in the future it would be giroux

but i think Z is the better player and will be for next few years

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02-19-2013, 07:47 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
This is precisely his point, though. Zetterberg's not Stamkos. Insofar as he could have been argued to have been among the top 5 or so forwards in the game, it would have been for a very, very short time, whereas many, if not most people would have had Stamkos as among that group for up to 3 years and counting.

As good as Zetterberg is, he's simply a different (lesser) class of player than Stamkos. Zetterberg might have had 90-ish points once or twice, but certainly isn't going to have 91 points in an off-year because he's just not that type of player.

Are you seeing where this is going?




Mario Lemieux played 20 games on a different line than Crosby (badly, I might add), then retired due to a heart condition that was the cause of his poor play.

Crosby=Andy Hilbert, Thomas Surovy, Eric Christensen, Colby Armstrong, an old Marc Recchi and Marian Hossa (for, I think, 1-ish regular season game). In other words, 3 minor leaguers, a bum, an over-the-hill, undersized guy in the twilight of a hall of fame career (though his twilight was long) and the then-best right wing in the NHL (for 15 or so regular season minutes).

Malkin=Michel Ouellet (who?), Maxim Talbot, Ruslan Fedotenko, Ryan Malone and Peter Sykora. 2 grinders, an emerging power forward and an over-the-hill sniper.

Ovechkin's=Chris Clarke, Jeff Halpern, Matt Bradley, Ben Clymer and Dainus Zubrus, Backstrom (OVs third year NB was a rookie) and an ancient Mike Knuble. In other words, 4 pluggers, a journeyman, one season of one 4th overall pick and a beaten down net-front presence who had no legs.

Stamkos=St Louis first two big years, then Purcell, Downie and Malone without missing a beat production-wise. A very elite forward, two journeymen and (by the time he was put with Stamkos) a banged up powerforward.

Giroux=Asham, Powe (1st season); 2nd on it was some combination of Leino, Richards, JVR, Gagne, Hartnell Jagr. 2 4th liners, a top 6 bum, a 2nd overall pick, 3 all stars and an old legend.

In order of worst to best linemates in their first 3 or 4 full-ish seasons, we have

Ovechkin~Crosby<Malkin<Stamkos<Giroux.

By 09/10, the "third wheel" on Giroux's line was better than anybody any of the other 4 guys have been accustomed to in the same role, which persisted until this present season.

So no, the argument that Giroux didn't get going as fast as those three because he was gimped on linemates in comparison to them doesn't fly. The argument that he didn't get going as fast because he's not one of them makes a lot more sense.

This is why it's more reasonable to compare him to Zetterberg. Maybe once in a blue moon he might sniff at 90, but you'll lose less money if you bet something in the 70s. Throwing him in with the (Malkin/Stamkos/Crosby sucked last year...he only had 87/91/102 points) crowd is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

That people like yourself, Peter Laviolette or this Sasso character mention Giroux's name in the same breath with your Malkins/Stamkos/Crosbys creates exactly the sort of unreasonable expectations that make outsiders think Giroux's dogging it or unready for leadership when he's not on pace for the type of numbers those guys are assumed to produce each and every year.

The perception that CG shouldn't be a captain or is playing lazy is, in my opinion, completely false. Far as I'm concerned, Giroux's wearing the captaincy just fine and doing the best he can with what he's got to work with this year.

But that's probably because I've never locked him in the treehouse with the rest of the "Hart/Rockey/Ross trophy or he sucked that year" club (Crosby, Stamkos, OV, Malkin).

He's a first line forward. He's just not them. It's unfair to put him on the pedestal they sit because he'll look awful grimy in comparison, when all is said and done.

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02-19-2013, 08:23 AM
  #93
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just wow


you're so incredibly ignorant



Giroux was on for more goals against than any other Flyers forward last year.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Only Harry Zolnierczyk and Jody Shelley were on for more goals against per amount of ice time than Giroux.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#


(Just to point out from those links, Couturier was ridiculously good last year. Like jaw dropping good.)


Until Giroux shores his defensive play, he is not better than Zetterberg.

Last season, Bergeron and Thornton were their teams' shutdown centres, and managed to be 10th and 11th on their teams in GA/ice time (pretty much the best despite playing against top players). Begeron was the main cog in the most dominant two-way line in hockey. Both were better than Giroux, you're just completely obliviously to his deficiencies.

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02-19-2013, 08:43 AM
  #94
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Giroux is not on Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos' level. He's a great player, but that's setting yourself up for disappointment if you think he can be that consistent offensively year in and year out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Last season, Bergeron and Thornton were their teams' shutdown centres, and managed to be 10th and 11th on their teams in GA/ice time (pretty much the best despite playing against top players). Begeron was the main cog in the most dominant two-way line in hockey. Both were better than Giroux, you're just completely obliviously to his deficiencies.
Giroux > Bergeron last year. I watched nearly every Flyers game and nearly every Bruins game. Giroux was hands down the better player.

I do agree though that Giroux's defensive game can be overrated, although he's been playing somewhat better defensively this year.


Last edited by PayItForward: 02-19-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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02-19-2013, 11:05 AM
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I don't really see why it is so strange that Zetterberg is winning. He's elite defensively and has a lot of points, don't forget he's a playoff beast. More so than Giroux actually. He's also been excellent with the NT. Zetterberg!

He's very classy also. I don't think Giroux is all that classy.

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02-19-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
I'm not saying Giroux will be a consistent 90+ point player, maybe he will maybe he won't. I'm saying its too early to declare last season a fluke or peak, when every year since he's come into the league hes continued to improve, given progressively larger opportunities and exceeded expectations at every turn. Maybe he's peaked, maybe last season was a fluke brought out by Jagr, nobody knows yet because he's still in the prime of his career and there's really no evidence yet to suggest he'll regress to a 70+ point player. In my opinion though, I think how much he produces will depend on the players surrounding him, and if Flyers management can get him a proven goal scoring winger, say Perry or Ryan, he could consistently put up 90+ points for multiple seasons down the road. Look what he did with Hartnell. He isn't Crosby who can do it regardless of the people around him, few players are. Even Stamkos and Ovechkin have had Backstrom and MSL helping them.
Sure everyone is entitled to their hunches, but all I'm saying is that if you believe Giroux is a consistent 90+ player then your belief isn't justified by the numbers he's put up throughout his career. Giroux's development has been drastically different than every consistent 90+ point player in the league, and all signs support his 90p season being a "fluke" not his new normal. I understand he's been trending upwards, as most players his age are, but that alone doesn't provide enough evidence to believe he is now in the company of Stamkos, Malkin and Crosby offensively.

Why does it make people so upset that I'm putting him in a group with Datsyuk, Kovalchuck and Spezza (consistent 70-80 point players) who can all pass 90 points in a given season but not necessarily consistently instead of a group with Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos the only players in the league who produce over 90 points consistently?

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02-19-2013, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwaZ View Post
I don't really see why it is so strange that Zetterberg is winning. He's elite defensively and has a lot of points, don't forget he's a playoff beast. More so than Giroux actually. He's also been excellent with the NT. Zetterberg!

He's very classy also. I don't think Giroux is all that classy.
At 21, Claude Giroux was one of the best forwards on his team that went to the finals. At 22 and 23, Giroux was THE best player on his team in the playoffs, and was over a PPG each of those playoffs.

At 22, Zetterberg was not an impact player on a team that got swept in round 1. At 23 he was 11th in team scoring in 12 games in the playoffs.

Giroux has been far more of a playoff beast when comparing their early careers. Zetterberg didn't reach "beast" status until 2008 at 27. Giroux has plenty of time to match that, if he hasn't already.

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02-19-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
Sure everyone is entitled to their hunches, but all I'm saying is that if you believe Giroux is a consistent 90+ player then your belief isn't justified by the numbers he's put up throughout his career. Giroux's development has been drastically different than every consistent 90+ point player in the league, and all signs support his 90p season being a "fluke" not his new normal. I understand he's been trending upwards, as most players his age are, but that alone doesn't provide enough evidence to believe he is now in the company of Stamkos, Malkin and Crosby offensively.

Why does it make people so upset that I'm putting him in a group with Datsyuk, Kovalchuck and Spezza (consistent 70-80 point players) who can all pass 90 points in a given season but not necessarily consistently instead of a group with Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos the only players in the league who produce over 90 points consistently?
Because he's 24 years old, and you are holding it against him that he hasn't had a chance to prove consistency yet, due to his young age.

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02-19-2013, 05:12 PM
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Giroux, because he is much younger. Zetterberg has had a great career, on light of accomplishments, in par of best Swedish hockey player ever, but I wouldn't take him over Giroux right now.

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02-19-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Because he's 24 years old, and you are holding it against him that he hasn't had a chance to prove consistency yet, due to his young age.
Every player in the league who produces more than 90 points proved their consistency right from the get go. Why should I believe that Giroux is the exception?

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