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So, we panic yet?

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:10 PM
  #101
Vic Vinegar
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This back-to-back is huge. Two very winnable games. If we take both of them, we're in the payoff hunt. I don't think it's late enough in the season to start throwing out the words "must win", but these two games are extremely critical.

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02-19-2013, 02:14 PM
  #102
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If they can't score with Khabibulin in net it's time to make some trades. My question as to the panic part of it-what exactly constitutes panic from a fan? Do I run around my house yelling and screaming? Do I run up to strangers and shake them violently?

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02-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #103
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I just **** my pants

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02-19-2013, 02:51 PM
  #104
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I just **** my pants
Congrats.

Anyway...


After 12 games:

Shots on goal:
Anze Kopitar 19
Trevor Lewis 21

That's the Kings' problem right there.

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02-19-2013, 02:53 PM
  #105
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Congrats.

Anyway...


After 12 games:

Shots on goal:
Anze Kopitar 19
Trevor Lewis 21

That's the Kings' problem right there.
Yep, Lewis is on the ice way too much clearly

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02-19-2013, 03:30 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
If they can't score with Khabibulin in net it's time to make some trades. My question as to the panic part of it-what exactly constitutes panic from a fan? Do I run around my house yelling and screaming? Do I run up to strangers and shake them violently?
Pushing to trade several pieces from the core that just won a Stanley Cup ten games earlier is pretty well the definition of panic for a fan.

As for Bulin, yes he can be pretty bad, but from time to time he has a game that flashes his old all-star game. He's very hit or miss in Edmonton, mostly miss, but when he's on, he's almost unbeatable. Hopefully we get normal Bulin (assuming he's playing).

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02-19-2013, 03:36 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Pushing to trade several pieces from the core that just won a Stanley Cup ten games earlier is pretty well the definition of panic for a fan.

As for Bulin, yes he can be pretty bad, but from time to time he has a game that flashes his old all-star game. He's very hit or miss in Edmonton, mostly miss, but when he's on, he's almost unbeatable. Hopefully we get normal Bulin (assuming he's playing).
Define core pieces?

Are Trevor Lewis, Jarret Stoll, Dwight King, Simon Gagne or Dustin Penner core players? I would say no to all of them being core pieces.

The Kings clearly need better and more consistent play from Kopitar, Richards and Brown but it doesn't matter if the bottom line players continue to blackholes.

Have the Kings had a big goal from the bottom lines yet this season?

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02-19-2013, 03:49 PM
  #108
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Define core pieces?

Are Trevor Lewis, Jarret Stoll, Dwight King, Simon Gagne or Dustin Penner core players? I would say no to all of them being core pieces.

The Kings clearly need better and more consistent play from Kopitar, Richards and Brown but it doesn't matter if the bottom line players continue to blackholes.

Have the Kings had a big goal from the bottom lines yet this season?
Core would include Richards, who I've seen being pushed to be moved, even by you IIRC. I also thought I seen a post on here early contemplating Richards as an amnesty buyout.

Btw, Richards is tied with Kopitar for tops in scoring on this team right now and is scoring at about the same pace as he did in the playoffs last season, not to mention he's been getting a lot better as the season has progressed. He's not been the problem the past several games, arguably he's been the Kings best forward over that time frame.

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02-19-2013, 03:57 PM
  #109
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I would consider Lewis a core piece. He is exactly what you want in a Fourth line/PK player.

He simply receives too many minutes on the Kings. He should only play the third line, when their is an injury.

Williams is going to be around till Pearson or Tofolli are ready (when ever that is).

Stoll is not ever going to be moved, unless the Kings pay his whole salary, or Vey displaces him from the lineup.

Richardson,Penner should be gone. Both of those guys career's are over with the Kings.

Gagne hasn't been that bad, but he is not worth the 3mill he is being paid.

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02-19-2013, 03:59 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Core would include Richards, who I've seen being pushed to be moved, even by you IIRC. I also thought I seen a post on here early contemplating Richards as an amnesty buyout.

Btw, Richards is tied with Kopitar for tops in scoring on this team right now and is scoring at about the same pace as he did in the playoffs last season, not to mention he's been getting a lot better as the season has progressed. He's not been the problem the past several games, arguably he's been the Kings best forward over that time frame.
On Richards, which I believe was mentioned in the Kessel thread. I said the Kings would be foolish to not consider moving him if there was a strong enough offer. Which would return another core player. I said, and still stand by it that if MR is going to be a 45-50 point player his contract is going to be a problem going forward for the Kings.

And it's convenient to cherry pick the stats, failing to note the comments were made before MR scored 3 PP goals in the past two games. The guy is still nowhere close to being an offensive force 5 on 5, and that is why I like him better in a third line role. But I'm sure I'll be torn down for being a "Richards Hater" by a certain Flyer fan who pretty much said MR is the most special player they have seen since Bob Clarke (but bias is only a one way street, I guess)

I am not advocating trading MR right now, he is a very good hockey player, I just question his ability to be a dominant second line center (which DL's strength down the middle style demands). He can still clearly play well in all three zones and on the PP. But does he score enough 5 on 5 to be the second line center for the next 7 years the way this team is constructed?

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02-19-2013, 04:03 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
On Richards, which I believe was mentioned in the Kessel thread. I said the Kings would be foolish to not consider moving him if there was a strong enough offer. Which would return another core player. I said, and still stand by it that if MR is going to be a 45-50 point player his contract is going to be a problem going forward for the Kings.

And it's convenient to cherry pick the stats, failing to note the comments were made before MR scored 3 PP goals in the past two games. The guy is still nowhere close to being an offensive force 5 on 5, and that is why I like him better in a third line role. But I'm sure I'll be torn down for being a "Richards Hater" by a certain Flyer fan who pretty much said MR is the most special player they have seen since Bob Clarke (but bias is only a one way street, I guess)

I am not advocating trading MR right now, he is a very good hockey player, I just question his ability to be a dominant second line center (which DL's strength down the middle style demands). He can still clearly play well in all three zones and on the PP. But does he score enough 5 on 5 to be the second line center for the next 7 years the way this team is constructed?
The problem with that is, not very many players meet the Second line criteria people think is out there.

If you think a Second line Center should score 60 to 70 points each season....Well there are about Five guys(in the Entire League) that do that in second line roles.....

So.....When do the Kings sign Malkin or draft his clone..?

Kopitar is barely a 75 point player each year.... Think about that

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02-19-2013, 04:04 PM
  #112
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Dmac,

I basically agree with everything you said. Lewis is fine as a fourth liner, but has been way over used by the Kings.

Stoll is even ok in a fourth line role, the problem is he is paid like and given similar IT to an elite third line player. I agree with your assessment that the Kings would have an extremely hard time moving him because of his laughable contract.

Gagne has been ok, but certainly not a core player.

Williams has been an important part of the Kings since he got here, but he is far from a core player. He is the run of the mill second line winger who has played most of his time here with our best forward. Williams is not a bad player (well maybe some nights) but I certainly wouldn't put him in the core group.

I still think the core of this team is Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Brown and Mitchell. We go as far as these guys take us. I think it would also be fair to include Carter, Richards, Greene and Voynov going forward. But this team goes as far as those first five names take us, we saw that last spring.

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02-19-2013, 04:08 PM
  #113
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Also Any Second line Center you plug in, is going to be a 50-55 point player.

It will remain that way till the Kings PP becomes above average or Elite.

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02-19-2013, 04:10 PM
  #114
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Dmac,

Most teams centers are complimented by wingers as offensive forces, we will enver see that in LA. DL is going to use his draft picks, FA money and other assets on G, C and D so there is more pressure on getting elite production from the centers.

I think the Kings original plan was to have Brayden Schenn be that guy, then they ran out of time and or saw flaws in Schenn's game. They traded for MR with the idea they were getting the player that was dominant in Philly, not sure that player is ever walking through the doors again.

Now Carter could fit the mold as more of the scorer they want and Richards in a third line role would give the Kings the best centers in the NHL. But if that is the case they need to get a winger for Carter. I like Clifford as a player, but I think ideally going forward you look at him as the second piece of a damn nice looking third line with Richards, rather than a second liner.

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02-19-2013, 04:11 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
On Richards, which I believe was mentioned in the Kessel thread. I said the Kings would be foolish to not consider moving him if there was a strong enough offer. Which would return another core player. I said, and still stand by it that if MR is going to be a 45-50 point player his contract is going to be a problem going forward for the Kings.

And it's convenient to cherry pick the stats, failing to note the comments were made before MR scored 3 PP goals in the past two games. The guy is still nowhere close to being an offensive force 5 on 5, and that is why I like him better in a third line role. But I'm sure I'll be torn down for being a "Richards Hater" by a certain Flyer fan who pretty much said MR is the most special player they have seen since Bob Clarke (but bias is only a one way street, I guess)

I am not advocating trading MR right now, he is a very good hockey player, I just question his ability to be a dominant second line center (which DL's strength down the middle style demands). He can still clearly play well in all three zones and on the PP. But does he score enough 5 on 5 to be the second line center for the next 7 years the way this team is constructed?
I'm not cherry picking stats here Herby. I'm replying to your post where you said "The Kings clearly need better and more consistent play from Kopitar, Richards and Brown..." I'm pointing out that Richards has been the clubs best forward IMO over the past say 5 games (I'd say since the Columbus game, so however many games since then), so he is now giving that consistency you are saying he needs to give.

I agree that we need more 5-on-5 scoring from him, but as long as he's not costing us goals five-on-five and is providing some level of offense overall, I'm willing to give him more slack. He's on pace for 57 points this season, that's close to a low end first line centre's pace, yet he's sixth in ice time at even strength amongst forwards this season, just nine seconds a game more than Stoll and 32 seconds a game more than Penner and King.

Considering the ice time he's getting, I'm ok with the production.

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02-19-2013, 04:14 PM
  #116
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I don't think the Kings were ever expecting Richards to score 70+ points again. They paid for a 55-60 point 2nd line center with leadership qualities and a tendency to step his game up in the playoffs.

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02-19-2013, 04:16 PM
  #117
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Dmac,

Most teams centers are complimented by wingers as offensive forces, we will enver see that in LA. DL is going to use his draft picks, FA money and other assets on G, C and D so there is more pressure on getting elite production from the centers.

I think the Kings original plan was to have Brayden Schenn be that guy, then they ran out of time and or saw flaws in Schenn's game. They traded for MR with the idea they were getting the player that was dominant in Philly, not sure that player is ever walking through the doors again.

Now Carter could fit the mold as more of the scorer they want and Richards in a third line role would give the Kings the best centers in the NHL. But if that is the case they need to get a winger for Carter. I like Clifford as a player, but I think ideally going forward you look at him as the second piece of a damn nice looking third line with Richards, rather than a second liner.
Well the last Three Drafts have been heavy on the Forward side.

Vey was drafted as a Winger can play all three forward spots.

Tofolli is a pure Winger, the kid is not going to be a Center.

Pearson is the real deal, Another Williams type Winger.

That is some promising Wingers in the system.

They just need to continue to develop.

Ooop I always forget Kozun, the Kid is going to be an NHL winger. He may be small, but he plays BIG. Kid is bull in china shop down low.

Although that will lead to injuries.

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02-19-2013, 04:18 PM
  #118
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kf and before these five games he was one of the worst forwards on the team. Just like Kopitar after playing ok has now looked like one of the worst the last few games.

That is why I mentioned consistency.

With offensive black holes like Lewis, Stoll and King being given so much icetime we can't afford to have Kopitar and Richards have stretches like they both have had this season. (Can throw DB in that group as well)

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02-19-2013, 04:40 PM
  #119
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Ellerby will most likely work in the kings organization better than he did with Florida. Part of the reason his playing time was minamal (in my eyes at least) was that he wasn't a Tallon draftee so he fell behind the other D and his development was slow, most likely because people expected him to be a stellar defenseman right out of juniors. Too much pressure on him from that lead to him being 7th or 8th in Florida and getting traded to the Kings
Ellerbyfan,

What I have seen he is not bad. He is big and has good straight line speed but is only ave in his side to side mobility. For defenseman I prefer the side to side mobility over speed. He is weak on his stick and makes some pretty bad passes along the boards in the defensive end. But what I like is his reach and one on one play. I think if he ever decided to get stronger he can be a top 4 defenseman.

You can include me as an Ellerbyfan too.

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02-19-2013, 05:21 PM
  #120
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Trading Mike Richards would be asinine after what they gave up to get him and what he did for the team last year.

The guy is a winner, a leader, and a hell of a player. He's not a big guy and the way he plays will wear him down over the course of a long season so you're going to have to deal with the occasional ups and downs. There are going to be stretches where it looks like he's kind of going through the motions and pacing himself for the playoffs. He has to.

The thing I have always loved about Richards is he has the skill to score 30 with 40-50 assists but he also brings the physical gritty aspect to the game with his hitting, defense, leadership, chippiness, energy, etc.

It's impossible to try to play with the energy and physicality and aggressiveness that he plays with while also producing like a first line point producing center in a Malkin, Crosby, Spezza, Joe Thornton type of mold where they're always near the top of the league in points.

That's not what he's going to be and if that's what you expected, you didn't know what type of player we were getting. Richards' greatest asset has always been his two way ability. So he's not going to be thrown out there every shift with the mindset of offense offense offense.

There are going to be games where he's assigned more defensive shutdown duties vs a highly skilled team like Vancouver or Pittsburgh. He's going to be out there killing penalties. Guys like Spezza and Thornton don't do these types of things. So yeah, at the end of the year their point totals look great, but that's not what wins you championships.

Richards is in more of the mold of Henrik Zetterberg, with a little less offensive flair/skill. Zetterberg has shown he can score 40 goals and put up 85-90 points, but he's so much more valuable to his team as a 25 goal, 70 point guy who plays in various situations and roles to help his team win.

You also have to consider the system he's playing in with regards to his point total. You put a guy like Kopitar on Philly and he's a 90 point player easily. The Kings play a much more tight checking game with a greater emphasis on defense. In Philly, Richards played more run and gun up and down hockey which led to higher point totals.

And do people forget how awesome Richards was in his first two months as a King last year before his concussion? He had like 20 points in 24 games. He struggled for two months after returning from the concussion but then finished the season with 13 points in his last 18 games and had 15 points in 20 playoff games while playing a vital role in winning the Cup. That's nothing to sneeze at.

That's why I have to laugh at the proposals of sending Richards to Toronto for a guy like Kessel. Anyone who even considers doing that is just looking at the stat sheet or playing fantasy hockey. He's not a winner, he's soft, there's a reason the Bruins did not want to pay him and traded him as a 22 year old coming off a 35+ goal season, there's a reason he was picked last in the all star game, there's a reason why Toronto media members are calling for him to be dealt after having 37 goals and 82 points last year.

The Kings do need a finisher on the wing preferably with some speed, but Kessel is not the guy, especially not at the expense of someone like Mike Richards.

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02-19-2013, 05:24 PM
  #121
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I don't think the Kings were ever expecting Richards to score 70+ points again. They paid for a 55-60 point 2nd line center with leadership qualities and a tendency to step his game up in the playoffs.
Bingo.

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02-19-2013, 06:20 PM
  #122
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kf and before these five games he was one of the worst forwards on the team. Just like Kopitar after playing ok has now looked like one of the worst the last few games.

That is why I mentioned consistency.

With offensive black holes like Lewis, Stoll and King being given so much icetime we can't afford to have Kopitar and Richards have stretches like they both have had this season. (Can throw DB in that group as well)
And all I'm saying is he is starting to show that consistency that you are asking for. That's why I commented on him and not Kopitar and Brown, the other two players you mentioned. I would also debate the term 'one of the worst forwards on the team' prior to that. Almost the entire forward group played like crap the first 5 or so games. No one should be singled out for bad play from that group, the list would be far shorter as to who played good.

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02-19-2013, 08:09 PM
  #123
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I would consider Lewis a core piece. He is exactly what you want in a Fourth line/PK player.

He simply receives too many minutes on the Kings. He should only play the third line, when their is an injury.

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02-19-2013, 08:20 PM
  #124
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Well the last Three Drafts have been heavy on the Forward side.

Vey was drafted as a Winger can play all three forward spots.

Tofolli is a pure Winger, the kid is not going to be a Center.

Pearson is the real deal, Another Williams type Winger.

That is some promising Wingers in the system.

They just need to continue to develop.

Ooop I always forget Kozun, the Kid is going to be an NHL winger. He may be small, but he plays BIG. Kid is bull in china shop down low.

Although that will lead to injuries.

I just wanted to say that I have heard this often but Vey has been a center primarily since Bantam. He has played center so long now that I think it would take adjustment time to get him to play all 3 positions. He absolutely could do it but he is a pure center who can be moved to either wing as needed, not a true utility type of forward who is equally adept at any forward spot.

Everything you said is right on the money, just wanted to add my o2cents on Vey.

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02-20-2013, 02:10 PM
  #125
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Now were talking!

In my opinion only here, this is the Core lineup

Richards, Carter, Kopidor, Doty, Green, Voynov, Quick and Brown.

Richards is one of the best 2 way players when he's on his game. He's not going to score a ton of goals, but he's very capable at setting up plays and finding open players. His defense is in question thus far, but is now showing signs of improvement. Great pest, great faceoffs, kills penalty's and helps the PP. He shouldn't go anywhere. He IS the Bob Clark of the modern era.

Carter is the balance the 2nd line needs to keep other teams on their heels. He plays with one hand on the stick in the D zone to much for my taste, but he more than makes up for it with a sick shot, and ability to sneak to open spots. He's underrated in the sense he can join any line and make that line dangerous. I just wish he would go east west more often on goalies. He's got good hands.

Kopitar is a stud! Ok so he's not shooting the puck as much, but hey, they Kings arent under the radar anymore. Every team has watched what the Kings did last summer and are playing him closer. He's not getting the slot to much this year as teams are keeping him to the outside. He will find a way to get back to those areas and put the money home.

Doughty is still young and I get whats going on with him this year. He's playing way to much, and not comfortable with it. He wont say it but if you watch his play, he's not taking the reigns by the horn anymore and maybe conserving energy? By the end of the year, he will learn, and overcome this.

Green is in my opinion, the baddest dog in the house on defense. He can eat a ton of minutes, he's always there, great PK, fights when needed, and clogs up the lanes very well. With him out of the lineup, I feel its greens absence the Kings are missing, not so much WM. I know its a bold statement, and will take any flack from it. If he passed the puck any better, you all would agree with me.

Voynov is the reason we got Carter. It's good to see him fit in with the defense so smoothly. He still scares me with the way he holds onto the puck with pressure on, but he gets it done somehow. If he works on outlets better he will be a great top 4 or perhaps a top 2.

Quick is not looking like his old self either, but I'm thinking its cause of the D in front of him that's leaving him exposed to the cross passes that are getting threw. He's always let that bad goal in from time to time, but makes up for it with his post to post play. No question to me he's the best east-west goalie in the league.

Brown is beast when he shows up. I think he's played a total of 20 minutes this year. For whatever reason, he's just not on his game yet. He's streaky too, so maybe its time for him to wake up and become beast Brown for a few games. BUT when he DOES show up, He's one of the best in the game at what he does. Wouldn't trade him now for anyone.

I think that Green and Mitchel being out of the lineup is hard on the team as a whole. Being the defensive team they are, its showing in the + - department. We've added Ellerby and all I can think of, is when Willy and Greener are back, how good the D will look IF they get into the playoffs.

Most others not mentioned are not core players and if any one or two of them are traded I wouldn't be to sad. I say two because I'm not one to trade the team and fire everyone, but I think the team's lost that hunger they had over the last few years that only a new hungry player/players can bring to the team. Ok lets exclude Clifford from the trade list, maybe next year he can be a core player too. I just don't know if he's playing better, or because the rest are playing so poorly, it makes him look better. Time will tell, and he deserves the time for sure.

Just my opinion here guys and I'm no guru by any means.

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