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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:18 PM
  #351
EagleBelfour
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Oh, I never followed drafts back then, but I guess you're right, he went that high in ATD12 and ATD2010 too.
The first 6-7 ATD are definitely not great example to follow. I alwasy concentrate on the last two-three drafts at most. We learn so much every draft that the older one gets obsolete rather quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Even on the same line?

Can you imagine Orr and Shore on the same pairing? How would that work? What would Shore do if he were playing the Flyers of Orr's era and was called on to answer for his special style by one of those famed "tough" Flyers policemen?

Despite his reputation, do you think he'd alter his style a bit if he knew he'd have to go up against a 6'7" giant and get ragdolled and knocked into next week like the current Bruins tough guy did.....or would he bravely soldier on?
Yes, you need a lot of imagination in this draft. There's no method, but I try to simplify it the best I can: if someone was tough in his era, he will be tough in the ATD, good goalscorer in his era, good goalscorer in the ATD etc ... Not that complicated actually!

----

Is the next person to pick ready to make his selection? As soon as he's around I will select.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:18 PM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
He was known to be a tad beyond the rules....who knows? That's my point, it is all conjecture, speculation, subjective, woulda, shoulda, coulda....
And I think Shore would go a tad beyond today's rules too. A heavily penalized guy back then would probably be heavily penalized today, but it wouldn't be fair to expect him to play exactly the same way under today's rules. Thuggery-adjusted-for-era or something.

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02-19-2013, 04:23 PM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I always compare players to the era they played in, like every player on the ice playswith the set of rules they had during their time.
If that is true, why do you think he should be on the 4th line?

He was a 1st liner when he played at his peak.

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02-19-2013, 04:25 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
If that is true, why do you think he should be on the 4th line?

He was a 1st liner when he played at his peak.
90% of the players selected in this draft were first liner at their peak. It's all relative.

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02-19-2013, 04:26 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
My brain is a bit slow right now and this ADD is killing me, sorta.
I empathize.....seriously.

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02-19-2013, 04:26 PM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
who knows? That's my point, it is all conjecture, speculation, subjective, woulda, shoulda, coulda....
Maybe rambling on here but i think this is the way we at HoH are supposed to conduct our comparisons between eras. Be it offensive capacity, or size of the players. It's the only reasonable way.

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I empathize.....seriously.
Thanks.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:38 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
90% of the players selected in this draft were first liner at their peak. It's all relative.
Exactly, it is all relative, but to what?

The eras are radically different but somehow you have to have some sort of level playing surface.

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02-19-2013, 04:42 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Exactly, it is all relative, but to what?

The eras are radically different but somehow you have to have some sort of level playing surface.
I'll let others decide on that, i only meant that sizewise Shore would surely grow some inches and pounds. It will be interesting to see what kind of numbers the owner of him will put forward, and if we believe him.

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02-19-2013, 04:48 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Maybe rambling on here but i think this is the way we at HoH are supposed to conduct our comparisons between eras. Be it offensive capacity, or size of the players. It's the only reasonable way.
I think of it this way...

Modern-day rink... modern rules... players have equipment and size and skill they had from their best season(s)...

Not much different from that HNIC intro with Orr transposed into today's game...

Because really I don't think anyone is unfairly hurt by that... you can argue "modern" guys maybe have advantage... but the most recent peaks we talk about are almost exclusively late 90s... Weber is only guy draft I think who would be entirely out of this era...

And most importantly everyone is equally disadvantaged... Lidstrom has to play next to a guy with 1930s tube skates and wood stick... Joe Malone has barest and oldest equipment of all and has to take pass from Cournoyer

Goalies are the same... okay maybe 2013 goalie with all that equipment is unstoppable against early players... but what goalie has been drafted yet or will be a starter that had his peak at this time... Brodeur is most recent of them and his equipment is not stupidly big... and he has to still have a D from 1940s defending in front of him

Bottom line we're talking the best ever... I can see problem if we expect bubble guy from 1890s going up against even a bubble guy from today... but you would think and we try to prove Malone has best goal-scoring skills ever and would do as well against 1960s 70s 80s 90s goalies as he would against those from his time.

Now does my "system" bias itself to peaks... probably... but I think again it balances out... if a player had three-season peak out of nine years we know he has maybe only "best" form one out of every three games. Along those lines. Same with injuries.

I don't know just my thoughts

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:51 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator
The problem with Kerr is that he's capable of being an allright second liner if you build a line correctly around him, but he's not good enough to actually bother building around, so he's pretty much left as a specialist, ideally a 4th liner. I know it sounds harsh, but there are a couple other PP specialist forwards still out there who I think were just as good and valuable as Kerr.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I do certainly agree he shouldn't go way ahead of Dino.. Dino's longevity advantage is large.
Indeed. I've seen them both play and thought Dino drew more penalties, was more of an agitator, was knocked down more. Both were top-3 in net presence in my lifetime.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:54 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post

Is the next person to pick ready to make his selection? As soon as he's around I will select.
Ready.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:56 PM
  #362
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With our eleventh selection, the 344th overall in this year All-Time Draft, les Nordiques Québec are thrilled to select, from Toronto, Ontario, Left Winger Sid Smith





''We are absolutely thrilled to get our hand on Sidney James Smith, the offensive dynamo who played his entire career with the Toronto Maple Leafs. A gentleman on & off the ice, Smith was a master a deflecting shots from the point, either at 5-on-5 or on the powerplay. A very fast skater, Sid scored 20-or-more goals in six consecutive seasons, finishing top-10 in goalscoring five years in a row. A 1-time FAST, 2-time SAST & 2-time TAST, Sid was also known for his consistency, his leadership, his competent defensive game and his longevity, playing more than 400 consecutive games. We are very excited to start our two-way third line with such a well rounded player.''

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:02 PM
  #363
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
There are a glut of good forwards available right now.

All of them are flawed in one dimension or another but still steals at this point because of the run on defensemen.
Not true. See the forward that went to the Nordiques after you posted that.

It would be nonsensical for Sid Smith to not be able to secure a top-6 forward slot in the all-time draft. Does he have any flaws? He only led the Leafs in decade scoring in the 1950s, a 1st team all-star, twice 2nd team all-star, two time lady byng, three time stanley cup champion, NHL captain, seven all-star game appearances, and, oh yeah, five top-10s in NHL goals scored.


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Old
02-19-2013, 05:04 PM
  #364
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I thought Sid Smith was an offense-only player, albeit a good one to draft this late. Looking forward to see if you can show otherwise.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:07 PM
  #365
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The Ottawa Senators select Dave Taylor, RW

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:08 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I'll let others decide on that, i only meant that sizewise Shore would surely grow some inches and pounds. It will be interesting to see what kind of numbers the owner of him will put forward, and if we believe him.
It doesn't really matter, does it? Eddie Shore was big, but not huge, fore his era.

A few drafts ago, seventieslord came up with a chart to give a rough idea of how sizes would change.

If a player was born before 1970, he would be 1 inch taller and 10 pounds heavier.
Before 1950, +2 and +20
Before 1930, +3 and +30
Before 1910, +4 and +40
Before 1890, +5 and +50

Eddie Shore was born in 1902, and was listed at 5'11" and 190 lbs. With this chart, he would land at 6'3" 230 lbs. That seems to line up well with how I described him above - "big, but not huge".

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02-19-2013, 05:10 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought Sid Smith was an offense-only player, albeit a good one to draft this late. Looking forward to see if you can show otherwise.
So far, I can confidently say that Sid Smith was a competent defensive player. Competent, decent or good? That's another story. I'm very happy with the evidence I have so far, but we'll see what else I can discover.

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02-19-2013, 05:12 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Not true. See the forward that went to the Nordiques after you posted that.
Come again? He is exactly what I described.

Great value at this point due to the run on defensemen but "flawed" in that his complete game leaves some to be desired.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:21 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought Sid Smith was an offense-only player, albeit a good one to draft this late. Looking forward to see if you can show otherwise.
From what I've read, he wasn't physical and only became decent defensively late in his career. In terms of the draft, I'd say he is an offense only player.

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02-19-2013, 05:27 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Great value at this point due to the run on defensemen but "flawed" in that his complete game leaves some to be desired.
OMG. If lack of great defensive play is the hallmark of "flawed" in your books for a scoring line winger then tons of flawed players have already been drafted!!

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:29 PM
  #371
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346 Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - ON THE CLOCK

347 Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - TDMM has his list
348 TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils
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350 BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers
351 JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers
352 Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:29 PM
  #372
TheDevilMadeMe
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OMG. If lack of great defensive play is the hallmark of "flawed" in your books for a scoring line winger then tons of flawed players have already been drafted!!
True that.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:36 PM
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
So far, I can confidently say that Sid Smith was a competent defensive player. Competent, decent or good? That's another story. I'm very happy with the evidence I have so far, but we'll see what else I can discover.
Smith was known as somewhat defensively questionable when he was young, but improved in time. I know that because I found evidence of it and went after HO's team with that tidbit waaaay back in the ATD#10 finals. You can go check the finals thread for what I found...hopefully the link still works. His Vs2 scoring finishes are actually very similar to Rick Martin's, with a bit less longevity:

Rick Martin:
82, 75, 72, 70, 63, 62, 58, 51

Sid Smith:
83, 77, 73, 65, 64, 57

...though both guys were primarily triggermen and produced more goals than assists, so raw scoring finishes will underrate them somewhat (though their lack of playmaking is a drawback). Smith led the Leafs in playoff goalscoring twice in years they won the Cup, which is pretty nice. He's a strong pick at this point, and is definitely a viable ATD scoringline player, though he's not the only one still out there...

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:42 PM
  #374
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Just for reference, here are Herbie Lewis' peak Vs2 finishes:

Herbie Lewis:
93, 91, 77, 71, 70, 67, 50

I meant to comment on the Lewis pick when he was drafted because I think he was a very good value, but I wasn't around at the time. Lewis' offensive production is deceptive if you only look at his raw points finishes because both times he finished in the top-10 in scoring, he was only a few points from the #2 scorer, in spite of placing only 6th and 9th overall in the scoring race. If we want to talk about left wings who are real bargains at this point, the conversation should start with Lewis, who was also a strong two-way player.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:52 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Just for reference, here are Herbie Lewis' peak Vs2 finishes:

Herbie Lewis:
93, 91, 77, 71, 70, 67, 50

I meant to comment on the Lewis pick when he was drafted because I think he was a very good value, but I wasn't around at the time. Lewis' offensive production is deceptive if you only look at his raw points finishes because both times he finished in the top-10 in scoring, he was only a few points from the #2 scorer, in spite of placing only 6th and 9th overall in the scoring race. If we want to talk about left wings who are real bargains at this point, the conversation should start with Lewis, who was also a strong two-way player.
Thanks for that. I knew he was a proficient passer and clutch scorer to go along with his renowned defensive play and unsurpassed speed, but I hadn't realized how much production he had relative to the best of his era over entire regular seasons. He brings more to our third line than expected then! I know he's a solid top-6 forward glue guy in the all-time draft but he should be an elite third liner, seeing significant ice time against the opposition's best and when leading.


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