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How is Havlat still on the team?

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:34 PM
  #26
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how bout we keep the forward lines the same for more than one game without messing it all up kthx
I second this.

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02-19-2013, 04:40 PM
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It boggles my mind how little some people understand about hockey.
This.

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02-19-2013, 04:52 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
It boggles my mind how little some people understand about hockey.

Care to expand? Pretty baseless without calling out your point...

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02-19-2013, 05:04 PM
  #29
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It boggles my mind how little some people understand about hockey.
Seriously. It's like way simpler than calvinball and everyone understands calvinball.

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02-19-2013, 05:12 PM
  #30
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Havlat is fine. I'm much more concerned about Thornton and Marleau lately.

Havlat needs to be on the PP more often. Maybe it'll get him going offensively.

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02-19-2013, 05:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DuckEatinShark View Post
Havlat is fine. I'm much more concerned about Thornton and Marleau lately.

Havlat needs to be on the PP more often. Maybe it'll get him going offensively.
The coaching staff blows my mind when it comes to talent utilization. Really he is top 6 and occasionally top line player but he is so freakin inconsistent Im ready to ship him and patty anywhere ughhh.

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02-19-2013, 05:30 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Seriously. It's like way simpler than calvinball and everyone understands calvinball.
Funny that you bring that up; My little brother and I used to play calvinball when we were kids. Made up our own rules on the fly, in true spirit of the game.

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02-19-2013, 05:30 PM
  #33
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How can one justify paying Martin Havlat 5 million dollars a season to be a on the fourth line? Anyone? I know he has a no trade clause and he just can't be shipped off willy nilly, but it doesn't mean they can't try. Havlat is dead weight if/when he's not injured. Talk about a trade that didn't work out. Can't we just try to ship him off for some picks or something?
Didnt work out? Would you rather have slow-ass Dany Heatley at 7.5M? Its not Havlat's fault that TMac is an idiot.

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02-19-2013, 05:41 PM
  #34
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Nope, glad he's gone.

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02-19-2013, 05:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
Care to expand? Pretty baseless without calling out your point...
If it pleases you.

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I have to agree with Wolf on this, how long can we let these guys pan out? Marleau, Clowe, havlat, galiardi, burish are all garbage. Streaky players at best.
I agree with you on Burish. But the rest is just crap.

Patrick Marleau is one of the best goalscorers in the league. He carries the 'streaky label' but here's a great article done by Fear the Fin about how inaccurate that label is. Have a nice read: http://www.fearthefin.com/2012/7/10/...atrick-marleau. Besides this, you discount all the things Patrick Marleau does that aren't heralded, defense, zone entries, PKing, etc. But don't take it from me, take it from Mike Babcock: "To me, Patrick Marleau is a player thats misunderstood and misrepresented. Hes a very, very good 200-foot player. Even when hes not scoring, hes one of the best penalty killers in the league. He was a great player in the Olympics. Hes just a quiet guy. Even when hes not scoring, he still contributes in other areas that he never gets any credit for. He does a lot of other things well that as a coach, you really appreciate. Its really, really unfair the criticism that hes taken. If you really watch him carefully as an opposition coach, you appreciate all the little things that he does that gets you out of the ditch all the time. Honestly, hes a much better player than hes ever been given credit for."

Ryane Clowe isn't streaky, he's just not as good as you seem to believe. But despite his poor play this season, he's not "garbage". He still creates chances, he still moves the puck in the right direction, he's still an offensive weapon. We all make fun/bemoan of his zero goals, but in reality he's suffering from horrid shooting percentage. Very soon, he'll go off and score 5 goals in 5 games and we'll all celebrate how he's 'back', when his shooting percentages are just correcting themselves.

Havlat? An insanely important player to this team. He has great speed, the best hands on the team, and is amazingly creative. He adds another element to this team that no one else can do.

Galiardi? You mean the kid who's playing with Adam Burish and Andrew Desjardins? Wow, who can blame him for not producing!

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Marleau with his fantastic streak to start the season is the same old song and dance now. No heart.
Yeah, because shooting percentage is a great indication of 'heart'. Better start complaining about Thornton, Pavelski, and Couture too, because by your measure none of them have 'heart' either.

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Galiardi is a bust, at least the Ginner had heart.
How are you measuring this 'heart' thing? Let me guess, is it offensive statistics? Well, just in case that's what you're referring too, I think Galiardi would have much more success producing offensive if he were playing with Matt Duchene instead of Adam Burish. Galiardi has looked good offensively when he plays with linemates with actual talent: He and Havlat created 4 scoring chances in the first period despite dragging along Adam Burish, most of them absolute beauties. He was an integral part of a goal scored by Couture when he took a shift when he and Havlat together. But yeah, let's expect him to produce like Jamie McGinn, who's given actual ice time and actual linemates. I'm ****ing sick of this argument; McGinn showed nothing here that wasn't the product of shooting percentages. He had no chemistry with any of our top-6 centers. That was that.

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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
Havlat skate fantastically in circles
I honestly don't see what's the problem with this. He was holding the puck in the offensive zone and looking for a good shot. It's not his fault his 4th liner team mates were standing still oggling at him instead of moving their feet to get open for a shot or screening the goaltender.

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and Clowe needs to be put on the bench where he belongs.
I won't argue that he needs a benching for a game.





You are basically just following typical hockey narratives instead of actually looking at what's going on behind the scenes with this team, blindly following what the media tells you to thing. And we all know how much the majority of the media knows about hockey: squat.

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Old
02-19-2013, 06:01 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Funny that you bring that up; My little brother and I used to play calvinball when we were kids. Made up our own rules on the fly, in true spirit of the game.
All of the cool kids did.

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02-19-2013, 06:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
All of the cool kids did.
Good times.

Also, congrats on hitting 10K. Took you long enough.

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02-19-2013, 06:04 PM
  #38
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Yeah well you better watch out. I'll get you sooner or later at this pace.

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Old
02-19-2013, 06:23 PM
  #39
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Completely agree on that Babcock quote.

Players that are useless when they aren't scoring are detriments come playoff times. Marleau provides great value in that even when he is not scoring, he has many other ways to contribute to the team's success. Thornton has evolved to be a similar player.

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Old
02-19-2013, 07:02 PM
  #40
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The teams problems is not personnel related. Aside from Clowe no one is actively dragging the team down, and one 'problem' player is a good problem to have frankly (many teams have a bunch). I won't go into the coaching speal, but besides strategy the sharks are struggling with a couple issues.

1) Confidence. Watch tonight, there is hesitation in every play. Why? Because everyone is nervous about screwing up, or the person they are passing to screwing up, so they are squeezing their stick way too tight and hesitating on plays. Even a momentary hesitation in a league as fast the NHL = dead play. No one trusts anyone else, or themselves. This is the biggest difference from the first 5 games till now. Why is there no confidence and how do they get it back is a much tougher question.

2) Misscomunication. Everyone seems to be playing from a different playbook. When you see a guy make a pass to the slot, or a point, and go "THERE IS NO ON THERE WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!" half the time it's because someone was SUPPOSED to be there, but got confused. Players seem to be attempting to execute set plays, but different plays. I'm not sure what's going on here, I'm sure practice time plays a part, but the result is basically a bunch of guys who don't know what is going on at any given moment hoping to chance into a scoring opportunity instead of creating one.

3) Lack of offense from the defense. Besides Boyle no one is contributing offensively from the blue line. Too many blocked shots (hesitation plays a big part in that), too much passing, etc. Sharks need to start bombing the puck from the point while maintaining lateral movement. Standing in one spot and taking a shot from the blue line is tantamount to giving the puck away.

4) Maybe the absolute biggest issue, players are not skating. I don't mean they are lazy, but I think all the above problems are contributing to a reluctance to skate hard on bad plays. When a puck ends up behind them, instead of cutting hard and skating back they tend to looptly loo around and lackadaisically try to find it. It's like they need to have an eye on the puck before it's worth skating hard. Essentially they are trying react, instead of act, and it's putting them behind the play.

I honestly don't think team speed is a major problem for the Sharks anymore, they have plenty of skaters, they are suffering from a fundamental lack of purpose as a team. They don't know at any given moment what they are supposed to be doing. And frankly, while I said I would avoid it, that is a coaching problem.

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02-19-2013, 07:13 PM
  #41
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Well I imagine Todd's coaching is really just "ok boys, just score more goals than the other team and we win. the rest is on you. you guys are pros you got this. peace".

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02-19-2013, 07:23 PM
  #42
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In 2003-2004, a lot was made about the fact that the Sharks trusted each other...they trusted that each player would take care of his own responsibility, would be where he should be, and could execute as he was asked to execute. As players showed they could do this, a positive cycle of reinforcement developed.

Over the past couple of games, we've seen the opposite in SJ. Players are not doing what they are supposed to be doing, so everyone tries to compensate for everyone else, and it becomes a big mess.

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Old
02-19-2013, 07:27 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
The teams problems is not personnel related. Aside from Clowe no one is actively dragging the team down, and one 'problem' player is a good problem to have frankly (many teams have a bunch). I won't go into the coaching speal, but besides strategy the sharks are struggling with a couple issues.

1) Confidence. Watch tonight, there is hesitation in every play. Why? Because everyone is nervous about screwing up, or the person they are passing to screwing up, so they are squeezing their stick way too tight and hesitating on plays. Even a momentary hesitation in a league as fast the NHL = dead play. No one trusts anyone else, or themselves. This is the biggest difference from the first 5 games till now. Why is there no confidence and how do they get it back is a much tougher question.

2) Misscomunication. Everyone seems to be playing from a different playbook. When you see a guy make a pass to the slot, or a point, and go "THERE IS NO ON THERE WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!" half the time it's because someone was SUPPOSED to be there, but got confused. Players seem to be attempting to execute set plays, but different plays. I'm not sure what's going on here, I'm sure practice time plays a part, but the result is basically a bunch of guys who don't know what is going on at any given moment hoping to chance into a scoring opportunity instead of creating one.

3) Lack of offense from the defense. Besides Boyle no one is contributing offensively from the blue line. Too many blocked shots (hesitation plays a big part in that), too much passing, etc. Sharks need to start bombing the puck from the point while maintaining lateral movement. Standing in one spot and taking a shot from the blue line is tantamount to giving the puck away.

4) Maybe the absolute biggest issue, players are not skating. I don't mean they are lazy, but I think all the above problems are contributing to a reluctance to skate hard on bad plays. When a puck ends up behind them, instead of cutting hard and skating back they tend to looptly loo around and lackadaisically try to find it. It's like they need to have an eye on the puck before it's worth skating hard. Essentially they are trying react, instead of act, and it's putting them behind the play.

I honestly don't think team speed is a major problem for the Sharks anymore, they have plenty of skaters, they are suffering from a fundamental lack of purpose as a team. They don't know at any given moment what they are supposed to be doing. And frankly, while I said I would avoid it, that is a coaching problem.
All great points, but I believe the biggest difference between the first 5 games and now isn't the sharks and more that the other teams got their legs. Which coincides to us not skating. We're just a big, slow team. Pavelski is slower than ever. Marleau still only puts it on sometimes (usually for a solid chance, so I'll let that slide). JT is just slow, but he tries. Clowe is clowe. Couture looks like he's skating better, but he's still has a bad stride. Zues has surprised me the most this season. He's skating faster than 90% of the top 6. Very surprised.

I'd like to elaborate on some of this. We used to own the O-zone corners. Now, we get owned. Teams know to just pressure our guys hard and stay tight taking their lanes and we're totally ineffective. There's no room in the slot at all, and when our D isn't firing at the net we get no chances.

Bleh...I know it pains people to hear other fans say this but I'm ready to dump a good portion of our talent for low picks and/or high level prospects and get this team young and fast again.

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02-19-2013, 07:27 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
4) Maybe the absolute biggest issue, players are not skating. I don't mean they are lazy, but I think all the above problems are contributing to a reluctance to skate hard on bad plays. When a puck ends up behind them, instead of cutting hard and skating back they tend to looptly loo around and lackadaisically try to find it. It's like they need to have an eye on the puck before it's worth skating hard. Essentially they are trying react, instead of act, and it's putting them behind the play.
I don't know...other than Ryane Clowe (and yes, I would single him out), the team backskates hard...every team does nowdays. And the speed isn't so bad that the backcheck isn't working; its been very effective, and the Sharks aren't getting caught up ice. Before you say its because the Sharks are taking few risks, defenseman have been pinching, and forwards have been going down low, so it isn' that.

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I honestly don't think team speed is a major problem for the Sharks anymore, they have plenty of skaters, they are suffering from a fundamental lack of purpose as a team. They don't know at any given moment what they are supposed to be doing. And frankly, while I said I would avoid it, that is a coaching problem.
This may be part of it. The team's mishaps, bad passing, and perhaps poor strategy makes them seem slower than they really are.

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02-19-2013, 07:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
The teams problems is not personnel related. Aside from Clowe no one is actively dragging the team down, and one 'problem' player is a good problem to have frankly (many teams have a bunch). I won't go into the coaching speal, but besides strategy the sharks are struggling with a couple issues.

1) Confidence. Watch tonight, there is hesitation in every play. Why? Because everyone is nervous about screwing up, or the person they are passing to screwing up, so they are squeezing their stick way too tight and hesitating on plays. Even a momentary hesitation in a league as fast the NHL = dead play. No one trusts anyone else, or themselves. This is the biggest difference from the first 5 games till now. Why is there no confidence and how do they get it back is a much tougher question.

2) Misscomunication. Everyone seems to be playing from a different playbook. When you see a guy make a pass to the slot, or a point, and go "THERE IS NO ON THERE WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!" half the time it's because someone was SUPPOSED to be there, but got confused. Players seem to be attempting to execute set plays, but different plays. I'm not sure what's going on here, I'm sure practice time plays a part, but the result is basically a bunch of guys who don't know what is going on at any given moment hoping to chance into a scoring opportunity instead of creating one.

3) Lack of offense from the defense. Besides Boyle no one is contributing offensively from the blue line. Too many blocked shots (hesitation plays a big part in that), too much passing, etc. Sharks need to start bombing the puck from the point while maintaining lateral movement. Standing in one spot and taking a shot from the blue line is tantamount to giving the puck away.

4) Maybe the absolute biggest issue, players are not skating. I don't mean they are lazy, but I think all the above problems are contributing to a reluctance to skate hard on bad plays. When a puck ends up behind them, instead of cutting hard and skating back they tend to looptly loo around and lackadaisically try to find it. It's like they need to have an eye on the puck before it's worth skating hard. Essentially they are trying react, instead of act, and it's putting them behind the play.

I honestly don't think team speed is a major problem for the Sharks anymore, they have plenty of skaters, they are suffering from a fundamental lack of purpose as a team. They don't know at any given moment what they are supposed to be doing. And frankly, while I said I would avoid it, that is a coaching problem.
Great post I agree.

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Old
02-19-2013, 07:34 PM
  #46
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Bleh...I know it pains people to hear other fans say this but I'm ready to dump a good portion of our talent for low picks and/or high level prospects and get this team young and fast again.
A lot of people share this view. Theres only a select few on here who refuse to believe that this team is close to being done and want to keep trying with the current core.

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02-19-2013, 07:53 PM
  #47
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It's called regression to the mean.

And is this the same McGinn that had about 4 points in 50 games two seasons ago?
No, that was a McGinn who was still getting his game back after injuries hampered his development.

Havlat has been terrible and has booted away more chances than anyone on the team. Doesn't matter how good you think he is when he can't score, doesn't play defense, doesn't hit, won't block shots, and never goes to the tough scoring areas.

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02-19-2013, 07:56 PM
  #48
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Well I imagine Todd's coaching is really just "ok boys, just score more goals than the other team and we win. the rest is on you. you guys are pros you got this. peace".
He's a half-ass player's coach.

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02-19-2013, 08:17 PM
  #49
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How can one justify paying Martin Havlat 5 million dollars a season to be a on the fourth line? Anyone? I know he has a no trade clause and he just can't be shipped off willy nilly, but it doesn't mean they can't try. Havlat is dead weight if/when he's not injured. Talk about a trade that didn't work out. Can't we just try to ship him off for some picks or something?
Todd McLellan is ****ing retarded, you put him with this talent and a different coach and he scores well, McLellan is ****ing stupid and he should be fired.

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02-19-2013, 08:26 PM
  #50
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I honestly don't think team speed is a major problem for the Sharks anymore, they have plenty of skaters, they are suffering from a fundamental lack of purpose as a team. They don't know at any given moment what they are supposed to be doing. And frankly, while I said I would avoid it, that is a coaching problem.
Forgot to comment about this. I whole heartedly disagree on the speed thing. Team speed is a major issue. When you're playing a team like the blackhawks and you can't do anything in the N zone, its about speed. Teams know our top 6 is slow and they capitalize on that hard. I'd venture to say we're the slowest in the league.

The Kings won last year in part of their team speed. They're not entirely super skilled on paper, but they have a roster that skates hard and doesn't give up on plays. Our team plays the slower, "smarter", more skilled game. The Red Wings of the real west. They can't get it done anymore either.

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