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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-19-2013, 07:04 PM
  #526
Jame
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what is everyone's definition of franchise player?

Because I absolutely believe Ryan O'reilly is the type of player who fits the label... but I suspect I'm in the minority. I guess my definition of franchise player is different.

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02-19-2013, 07:04 PM
  #527
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That group is a myth... there is a group that understands that we have 3 offensive centers at various stages of development. And that the PROVEN abilities O'reilly has are in super short supply and absolutely critical to playoff success.

80+ point centers are very rare
The ability to shutdown 80+ point players on a nightly basis (while not being inept offensively) is just as rare, and just as valuable
The ability to shut down 80+ point players on a nightly basis, and put up 50-60 yourself, is even more rare.

If Colorado took Grigorenko, Brennan, and a 1st for O'Reilly, I'd pull the trigger and roll Hodgson - O'Reilly - Ennis 1-2-3 and never look back

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02-19-2013, 07:13 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
what is everyone's definition of franchise player?

Because I absolutely believe Ryan O'reilly is the type of player who fits the label... but I suspect I'm in the minority. I guess my definition of franchise player is different.
Kinda squishy to nail down. I'll give it a go:

Player who dominates play from his own position and either must be accounted for by the other team, and/or dramatically lifts the play of his teammates.

Players who make the cut for me
- Dominant goaltender
- High scoring forward that requires dedicated defensive matchups from the other team, and still scores, though at a reduced rate.
- Defenseman that controls play all the time through some skill (physical play, puck possession).
- Two-way center that that can shutdown opponents and score.

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02-19-2013, 07:21 PM
  #529
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I'd feel comfortable trading Grigs for O'Reilly, but then again, I'm not a currently employed NHL GM.

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02-19-2013, 07:38 PM
  #530
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Here's what it comes down to for me.

The Buffalo Sabres have been most successfully when they had a player of oreillys mold. Stanley Cup winners have a player of oreillys mold a majority of the time.

The sabres only prospect in that mold is Girgensons and we can only hope he becomes close to what oreillys is NOW.

If we're going to be stuck with ruff and regier for now, give me a center type they've proven to have success with. If they are booted then that's fine too because the new guys can have something solid to build from.

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02-19-2013, 07:46 PM
  #531
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Here's what it comes down to for me.

The Buffalo Sabres have been most successfully when they had a player of oreillys mold. Stanley Cup winners have a player of oreillys mold a majority of the time.

The sabres only prospect in that mold is Girgensons and we can only hope he becomes close to what oreillys is NOW.

If we're going to be stuck with ruff and regier for now, give me a center type they've proven to have success with. If they are booted then that's fine too because the new guys can have something solid to build from.
yup... you nailed it.

as long as we aren't giving up TWO of the 3 (hodgson, ennis, grigorenko).... then whatever package we have to offer is fine by me (within the boundaries of whats already been discussed_

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02-19-2013, 07:58 PM
  #532
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Am I the only one that would rather see Ennis be traded instead of Grigorenko or Hodgson?

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02-19-2013, 08:01 PM
  #533
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Am I the only one that would rather see Ennis be traded instead of Grigorenko or Hodgson?
Probably not.

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02-19-2013, 08:06 PM
  #534
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Am I the only one that would rather see Ennis be traded instead of Grigorenko or Hodgson?
Nope

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Old
02-19-2013, 08:35 PM
  #535
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Oh I get it ROR comes onto our team and we instantly become a playoff team. Good one! Makes me LOL. This team is more than just one player away from contending. Is giving up the farm worth a player such as ROR? I don't think he is, especially with the cap hit he will want. Girgensons and Cat both project to be similar players, while they probably won't reach the level of ROR (Even though hes only had one stellar season, IE Leino) I see them as valuable assets that could develop into a very similar players to ROR.

All this ROR talk makes me sick, its everything this sub forum is talking about...He is being treated as the greatest thing since Gretzky, the over valuing of him is sickening. I cannot wait until he gets signed or traded so this can end! AGH!!
No one is saying that O'Reilly makes the Sabres a playoff team immediately, and making the playoffs this year is not the reason that people want this team to trade for him. He turned 22 just over a week ago and trading for him would be a long-term commitment. He's not the one piece Buffalo needs to turn it around (although the need for a talented, young, two-way center who can win draws is arguably the team's greatest hole) but he's certainly a player that would help steer the ship in the right direction.

As for the Girgensons/Catenacci comparisons... no. We hope that Girgs can turn into a ROR type player, but O'Reilly is barely older than those two and when he was their age he was not only playing in the NHL, but being relied upon to shut down opposing team's top lines - with success. Catenacci's game isn't really comparable with O'Reilly's at all.






Admittedly I'm a huge Ryan O'Reilly fan. He's one of my favourite players in the league because I love guys that play the way he does, and it sucks that he's getting this ****** reputation for this weird situation (Not going to pretend he's not somewhat at fault, though). If the Pittsburgh game didn't open your eyes to how badly we need a player like O'Reilly, then we're not watching the same game. I don't expect anyone to simply shut down Crosby/Malkin, but Buffalo literally has absolutely no answer for any team with an elite center. The current crop of guys they have constantly gets murdered in the draws and completely dominated in their own end by even slightly competent centers.

So a 22-year old center, who by every measure is in elite company, a guy who not only fills the need as a defensive center, who can win faceoffs and get matched up against elite competition, but also led his team in scoring as a 20/21-year old, becomes available... then yeah I'll sell the farm for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
as long as we aren't giving up TWO of the 3 (hodgson, ennis, grigorenko).... then whatever package we have to offer is fine by me (within the boundaries of whats already been discussed_
Agreed.


Last edited by Sean McG: 02-19-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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Old
02-19-2013, 08:44 PM
  #536
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What's most frustrating for me in this whole debate is those that seem to think that trading for ROR precludes them from making other moves or trying to improve.

Come on, that's a weak counter argument. Does trading for ROR make your team better or does it not? That's the bottom ****ing line.

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02-19-2013, 09:34 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
What's most frustrating for me in this whole debate is those that seem to think that trading for ROR precludes them from making other moves or trying to improve.

Come on, that's a weak counter argument. Does trading for ROR make your team better or does it not? That's the bottom ****ing line.
Depends what you give up. That's the bottom line.

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02-19-2013, 09:47 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Depends what you give up. That's the bottom line.
Did you read when I said "does trading for ROR make your team better?"

Cause yeah, I kinda covered that,

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02-19-2013, 09:48 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Depends what you give up. That's the bottom line.
not really... at least not in the context of the scenarios we have discussed (trading 1 of the 3 young centers + D prospect)

Ennis + D Prospect
for
Oreilly

Does it make the Sabres better : YES

Hodgson + D Prospect
for
Oreilly

Does it make the Sabres better : YES

Grigorenko + D Prospect
for
Oreilly

Does it make the Sabres better : YES

overpayments or not... the Sabres are better immediately in any of those deals

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02-19-2013, 10:03 PM
  #540
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After the crap we just watched....I'll post it again....

I'd rather see a bunch of kids who try every shift then some of our players. I also do not like a team of smurfs. I said years ago, pick one or two of Roy, Ennis, Gerbe nad there was one other player I can't remember, and trade 2 of them. I hate watching a small team get pushed around. If for no other reason, I'd trade Ennis.

So.

1. I hate that J Hecht was brought back to this team. I HATE IT. Wake up call. Tomorrow, waive him. He does not bring anything to this team. I read it Zip, less goals are scored when he's on the ice...don't care. He's lazy, doesn't hustle, no contact, can't score.
2. Trade Gerbe for a pick. I love his hustle but he is so easy to push off the puck, he's on the ice constantly. He's no St. Louis, will never be.
3. Trade Stafford for a d-man. He's a yearly 20+ goal scorer, he has some value. We should be able to pick up a 3-4 dman for him.
4. Trade Leopold for a pick. Enough teams need d.
5. Blockbuster time. We haven't had a real 2-way center since Drury and before that Peca. Wow, what a coincidence, we haven't been a contender since Drury, and before we had Drury we weren't a contender since Peca was on the team. Face it, we need a shutdown center with size. It be nice if he was captain material but let's address the immediate need first. Yes, a lot to give up but I'm winning this from all the other teams right now.....Ennis, Sekera and 2013 1st for ROR.

There is nothing above I listed that is not realistic. It just takes a little balls right now. I go forward with this thought process:

1. Scott only plays against the Bruins. He brings nothing to the team. Actually, he earned everything 3 minutes into the first Bruin game...love him for that but he's taking up a spot.
2. I'm going with the kids no matter what. That means McNabb is brought up to see what he's got. As well as whoever in Rochester deserves it in the forward ranks.

My team going forward:

Vanek - Hodgson - Ott
Foligno - ROR - ???
??? - Grig - Pomms (I want the kid to have a mentor)
??? - ??? - Kaleta
McCormick

McNabb - Myers
Ernhof - Selzer
New Dman - Regher
Weber
Brennan

I would not be opposed to trading Enroth too. He's not the future answer, he's too small. I'm sure there is also a small trade to be made to bring in another 4th liner. Bring up 2 guys from Rochester and let's see. Again, I'd rather watch guys hustle, not float. Let Miller know we are trying, and that several of the guys on the squad right now are not worthy...

Tommorow....hecht goes on waivers.

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02-19-2013, 10:17 PM
  #541
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Depends what you give up. That's the bottom line.
What could we give up to make us worse than boring, lazy, mentally shot and in last place?

Seriously.

Miller, I guess. Vanek. Ehrhoff.

After that, who cares. Not a difference maker on the roster.

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02-19-2013, 10:22 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
what is everyone's definition of franchise player?

Because I absolutely believe Ryan O'reilly is the type of player who fits the label... but I suspect I'm in the minority. I guess my definition of franchise player is different.
"Franchise Player" IMO is elite at their position and marketable--the player most easily identified with the team. To me, the off-ice component--being able to market the guy...put the guy on all the ads, etc. is as important as the on-ice part when using that term.

I don't think O'Reilly is that kind of player...but according to my definition there are very few franchise players to begin with. The closest the Sabres have had was Vezina Ryan Miller.

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02-19-2013, 10:27 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
"Franchise Player" IMO is elite at their position and marketable--the player most easily identified with the team. To me, the off-ice component--being able to market the guy...put the guy on all the ads, etc. is as important as the on-ice part when using that term.

I don't think O'Reilly is that kind of player...but according to my definition there are very few franchise players to begin with. The closest the Sabres have had was Vezina Ryan Miller.

It's hockey in Buffalo. The entire roster is marketable locally.

Miller is marketable nationally, and that's because of the olympics. That had more to do with America than Good Hockey Player.



There really aren't any hockey players that are nationally marketable outside of Crosby. An only kind of.

Locally I could see in a city like LA, or NY you'ed need a charismatic guy to sell ads.

But like I said.. It's buffalo. Wasn't Mile Weber in a commercial?

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:29 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
"Franchise Player" IMO is elite at their position and marketable--the player most easily identified with the team. To me, the off-ice component--being able to market the guy...put the guy on all the ads, etc. is as important as the on-ice part when using that term.

I don't think O'Reilly is that kind of player...but according to my definition there are very few franchise players to begin with. The closest the Sabres have had was Vezina Ryan Miller.
yea..... no

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02-19-2013, 10:33 PM
  #545
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yea..... no
You asked what my definition was...and I gave it.

"Franchise" is more than just on the ice. Sorry that I don't see "superstar" or "player you build the team around" as the same as "franchise player"...but quite frankly that's a real convincing counter argument.

A franchise player represents the franchise in all aspects. On the ice, off the ice...otherwise why use the word franchise which clearly has a larger implication than on the ice? Unless you have a different definition of "franchise".

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02-19-2013, 10:42 PM
  #546
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yea..... no
just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean they are wrong

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02-19-2013, 10:44 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
You asked what my definition was...and I gave it.

"Franchise" is more than just on the ice. Sorry that I don't see "superstar" or "player you build the team around" as the same as "franchise player"...but quite frankly that's a real convincing counter argument.

A franchise player represents the franchise in all aspects. On the ice, off the ice...otherwise why use the word franchise which clearly has a larger implication than on the ice? Unless you have a different definition of "franchise".
yea, i get it. im not saying your wrong. just saying that's not what i define it as. like i said, i probably have a different definition.

Quote:
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just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean they are wrong
yup

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02-19-2013, 10:50 PM
  #548
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What's most frustrating for me in this whole debate is those that seem to think that trading for ROR precludes them from making other moves or trying to improve.

Come on, that's a weak counter argument. Does trading for ROR make your team better or does it not? That's the bottom ****ing line.
Exactly. Unless it's a huge overpayment, something I'll give credit to Darcy for rarely ever doing, Buffalo would come out of an O'Reilly trade a much improved team, both presently and in the future.

Also, the whole "we're treating this guy like he's the best player in the league" thing, no, we're treating him as a guy that compares very favourably to multiple players that have won gold medals and Stanley Cups - I'd say he's most similar to Bergeron, also similar to Richards and to a lesser extent, Toews. Every cup winner since the 04/05 lockout has had a player like O'Reilly.

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02-19-2013, 10:53 PM
  #549
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I'd say go after Getzlaf, but Anaheim is 12-2-1

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02-19-2013, 10:55 PM
  #550
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I like Oreilly, but if they have to give up a lot to get him AND pay him like a 1st line center (probably), he won't be worth it

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