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How is Havlat still on the team?

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Old
02-19-2013, 08:32 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Rapid eye movemenT View Post
Forgot to comment about this. I whole heartedly disagree on the speed thing. Team speed is a major issue. When you're playing a team like the blackhawks and you can't do anything in the N zone, its about speed. Teams know our top 6 is slow and they capitalize on that hard. I'd venture to say we're the slowest in the league.

The Kings won last year in part of their team speed. They're not entirely super skilled on paper, but they have a roster that skates hard and doesn't give up on plays. Our team plays the slower, "smarter", more skilled game. The Red Wings of the real west. They can't get it done anymore either.
When Murray is benched, we have a really speedy defense, which is really good. Out bottom six has good enough speed too (Wingels, Gomez, Galiardi, Desjardins, Sheppard). It's our top-6 that needs more speed. We have Marleau and Havlat, that's it. We need at least one more speedy guy and ideally too. We need to be controlling zone entries more.

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02-19-2013, 08:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
When Murray is benched, we have a really speedy defense, which is really good. Out bottom six has good enough speed too (Wingels, Gomez, Galiardi, Desjardins, Sheppard). It's our top-6 that needs more speed. We have Marleau and Havlat, that's it. We need at least one more speedy guy and ideally too. We need to be controlling zone entries more.
Havlat is NOT fast anymore.

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02-19-2013, 09:01 PM
  #53
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Havlat is NOT fast anymore.

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02-19-2013, 09:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Havlat is NOT fast anymore.
Yes. Because Marleau is faster, Havlat is not fast at all.

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02-19-2013, 09:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by vilpertti View Post
Yes. Because Marleau is faster, Havlat is not fast at all.
Exactly. Havlat's no Marleau, but Marleau is a top-5 skater in the league.

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02-19-2013, 09:36 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Exactly. Havlat's no Marleau, but Marleau is a top-5 skater in the league.
Top-5 forward easily. Maybe not Top-5 skater. I'd argue that a healthy Burns (last season Burns) is just as fast, if not a little faster.

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02-19-2013, 09:44 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Wolf74 View Post
How can one justify paying Martin Havlat 5 million dollars a season to be a on the fourth line? Anyone? I know he has a no trade clause and he just can't be shipped off willy nilly, but it doesn't mean they can't try. Havlat is dead weight if/when he's not injured. Talk about a trade that didn't work out. Can't we just try to ship him off for some picks or something?
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relax.

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02-19-2013, 09:45 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Top-5 forward easily. Maybe not Top-5 skater. I'd argue that a healthy Burns (last season Burns) is just as fast, if not a little faster.
Fair enough. Add Erik Karlsson, I don't think anyone beats him.

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02-19-2013, 10:12 PM
  #59
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So many questions and zero answers from the powers that be.

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02-19-2013, 11:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
If it pleases you.



I agree with you on Burish. But the rest is just crap.

Patrick Marleau is one of the best goalscorers in the league. He carries the 'streaky label' but here's a great article done by Fear the Fin about how inaccurate that label is. Have a nice read: http://www.fearthefin.com/2012/7/10/...atrick-marleau. Besides this, you discount all the things Patrick Marleau does that aren't heralded, defense, zone entries, PKing, etc. But don't take it from me, take it from Mike Babcock: "To me, Patrick Marleau is a player that’s misunderstood and misrepresented. He’s a very, very good 200-foot player. Even when he’s not scoring, he’s one of the best penalty killers in the league. He was a great player in the Olympics. He’s just a quiet guy. Even when he’s not scoring, he still contributes in other areas that he never gets any credit for. He does a lot of other things well that as a coach, you really appreciate. It’s really, really unfair the criticism that he’s taken. If you really watch him carefully as an opposition coach, you appreciate all the little things that he does that gets you out of the ditch all the time. Honestly, he’s a much better player than he’s ever been given credit for."

Ryane Clowe isn't streaky, he's just not as good as you seem to believe. But despite his poor play this season, he's not "garbage". He still creates chances, he still moves the puck in the right direction, he's still an offensive weapon. We all make fun/bemoan of his zero goals, but in reality he's suffering from horrid shooting percentage. Very soon, he'll go off and score 5 goals in 5 games and we'll all celebrate how he's 'back', when his shooting percentages are just correcting themselves.

Havlat? An insanely important player to this team. He has great speed, the best hands on the team, and is amazingly creative. He adds another element to this team that no one else can do.

Galiardi? You mean the kid who's playing with Adam Burish and Andrew Desjardins? Wow, who can blame him for not producing!



Yeah, because shooting percentage is a great indication of 'heart'. Better start complaining about Thornton, Pavelski, and Couture too, because by your measure none of them have 'heart' either.



How are you measuring this 'heart' thing? Let me guess, is it offensive statistics? Well, just in case that's what you're referring too, I think Galiardi would have much more success producing offensive if he were playing with Matt Duchene instead of Adam Burish. Galiardi has looked good offensively when he plays with linemates with actual talent: He and Havlat created 4 scoring chances in the first period despite dragging along Adam Burish, most of them absolute beauties. He was an integral part of a goal scored by Couture when he took a shift when he and Havlat together. But yeah, let's expect him to produce like Jamie McGinn, who's given actual ice time and actual linemates. I'm ****ing sick of this argument; McGinn showed nothing here that wasn't the product of shooting percentages. He had no chemistry with any of our top-6 centers. That was that.



I honestly don't see what's the problem with this. He was holding the puck in the offensive zone and looking for a good shot. It's not his fault his 4th liner team mates were standing still oggling at him instead of moving their feet to get open for a shot or screening the goaltender.



I won't argue that he needs a benching for a game.





You are basically just following typical hockey narratives instead of actually looking at what's going on behind the scenes with this team, blindly following what the media tells you to thing. And we all know how much the majority of the media knows about hockey: squat.

What you just typed is the same old song and dance man, Ive heard all the arguments before. You spent way too much time and effort into this response. Your once again baseless comment about people not knowing about hockey smells of a superiority complex, just sayin. You just sound content, I want a culture change that doesnt include heartless marleau.


Last edited by Swedish GP: 02-19-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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Old
02-19-2013, 11:11 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
What you just typed is the same old song and dance man, Ive heard all the arguments before. You spent way too much time and effort into this response. Your once again baseless comment about people not knowing about hockey smells of a superiority complex, just sayin. Your right you know better than anyone else.
You've heard all the arguments before, but you won't accept them, then? YOu repeat tired old narratives, and then won't even listen to thought-out, logical responses? That's exactly what I'm getting at. You're stuck in your ways, you don't have an original thought in that post. You just repeat stereotypes and can't even defend them.

You said Marleau's streaky. I proved he wasn't.

You bemoaned the McGinn trade. I explained context.

I explained that circumstances matter, and you wouldn't even hear that, like everything happens in a vacuum.

You accuse me of "spending too much time on my response". Since when is that a bad thing?

And lastly, you don't even address the actual content of my argument in your response. That's ad hominem. That's not arguing, and it's certainly not leaving me with the impression that I was wrong.

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02-19-2013, 11:30 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
What you just typed is the same old song and dance man, Ive heard all the arguments before. You spent way too much time and effort into this response. Your once again baseless comment about people not knowing about hockey smells of a superiority complex, just sayin. You just sound content, I want a culture change that doesnt include heartless marleau.
What you just typed is the same old pointless drivel that is backed by nothing coming close to facts. You have your opinions and you're entitled to them but thus far you support it with nothing. If you want to call out someone for saying something baseless, maybe you should go back and look at everything you've typed thus far and realize you're being a hypocrite.

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02-19-2013, 11:33 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
What you just typed is the same old song and dance man, Ive heard all the arguments before. You spent way too much time and effort into this response. Your once again baseless comment about people not knowing about hockey smells of a superiority complex, just sayin. You just sound content, I want a culture change that doesnt include heartless marleau.
You keep repeating your opinion, one shared by many people who don't actually watch the Sharks, about Marleau being heartless. See, I can do that too. What does it prove? Nothing.

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02-19-2013, 11:46 PM
  #64
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Yes. Because Marleau is faster, Havlat is not fast at all.
No ...because he hasn't been fast at all this season. He WAS fast in the past but he is not anymore. Perhaps is injury had something to do with it.

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02-19-2013, 11:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
What you just typed is the same old pointless drivel that is backed by nothing coming close to facts. You have your opinions and you're entitled to them but thus far you support it with nothing. If you want to call out someone for saying something baseless, maybe you should go back and look at everything you've typed thus far and realize you're being a hypocrite.
It's funny, he calls my opinions "baseless" and then ignores my arguments.

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02-20-2013, 12:35 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
You've heard all the arguments before, but you won't accept them, then? YOu repeat tired old narratives, and then won't even listen to thought-out, logical responses? That's exactly what I'm getting at. You're stuck in your ways, you don't have an original thought in that post. You just repeat stereotypes and can't even defend them.
Yeah I want a fresh look for the team and im the one stuck in my old ways, yeah think about that for a minute. I dont need to type three pages to explain what I want you to know and I got my point across and maybe even got under your skin a little but thats fine.

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02-20-2013, 12:39 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
Yeah I want a fresh look for the team and im the one stuck in my old ways, yeah think about that for a minute. I dont need to type three pages to explain what I want you to know and I got my point across and maybe even got under your skin a little but thats fine.
You might be more respected if you did because that would mean you actually put thought into it. In the most simplistic terms possible, a fresh look for this team means that they will suck for a very long time.

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02-20-2013, 12:48 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
What you just typed is the same old pointless drivel that is backed by nothing coming close to facts. You have your opinions and you're entitled to them but thus far you support it with nothing. If you want to call out someone for saying something baseless, maybe you should go back and look at everything you've typed thus far and realize you're being a hypocrite.
The baseless comment was regarding the smugness of her original comment regarding peoples knowledge of hockey as if they are the definitive hockey reference.


Last edited by Swedish GP: 02-20-2013 at 12:55 AM.
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02-20-2013, 12:53 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You might be more respected if you did because that would mean you actually put thought into it. In the most simplistic terms possible, a fresh look for this team means that they will suck for a very long time.
I wasnt asking for respect, people that get all up tight and loose it over someones opinion are the ones that crave that here. Respect me or not I engaged you didnt I? Sorry if people cant handle average conversation without having to puff their typing chests over the internet. Ive been reading this forum for 4 years so I know by calling someone out thats been around was going to rile some feathers. Anyways arent you tired of it? Tired of the same results with these guys? Im over it, Ive been a huge supporter for years and thought these guys were gonna do it, I can no longer support Marleau, Havlat or Clowe simple as that and no I dont need a deep 2 paragraph breakdown of why. That doesnt mean I dont know hockey or know this team intimately.


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02-20-2013, 01:02 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
I wasnt asking for respect, people that get all up tight and loose it over someones opinion are the ones that crave that here. Respect me or not I engaged you didnt I? Sorry if people cant handle average conversation without having to puff their typing chests over the internet. Ive been reading this forum for 4 years so I know by calling someone out thats been around was going to rile some feathers. Anyways arent you tired of it? Tired of the same results with these guys? Im over it, Ive been a huge supporter for years and thought these guys were gonna do it, I can no longer support Marleau, Havlat or Clowe simple as that and no I dont need a deep 2 paragraph breakdown of why. That doesnt mean I dont know hockey or know this team intimately.
Fine, then don't support them. But unless you justify it, it will continue to be 'baseless'.

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02-20-2013, 01:07 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Fine, then don't support them. But unless you justify it, it will continue to be 'baseless'.
Ohh gawd, your so funny. The "baseless" comment was regarding your comment on others "hockey knowledge" somehow you thought I was referring to your opinions on the team. I think your confused.

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02-20-2013, 01:18 AM
  #72
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Ohh gawd, your so funny. The "baseless" comment was regarding your comment on others "hockey knowledge" somehow you thought I was referring to your opinions on the team. I think your confused.
No, that's not at all what I meant.

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02-20-2013, 01:28 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Rapid eye movemenT View Post
Forgot to comment about this. I whole heartedly disagree on the speed thing. Team speed is a major issue. When you're playing a team like the blackhawks and you can't do anything in the N zone, its about speed. Teams know our top 6 is slow and they capitalize on that hard. I'd venture to say we're the slowest in the league.

The Kings won last year in part of their team speed. They're not entirely super skilled on paper, but they have a roster that skates hard and doesn't give up on plays. Our team plays the slower, "smarter", more skilled game. The Red Wings of the real west. They can't get it done anymore either.
I am not trying to say we could not still improve in that area, we certainly could (Clowe, Murray...) I'm just saying it's not the glaring issue it used to be. Aside from Murray (who doesn't play every night) our D is now very mobile, and if you swapped Clowe for a decent skater you'd have a pretty quick forward group too. With the right strategy and buy in the team has the capacity to play a quick game now, they did not before.

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02-20-2013, 01:29 AM
  #74
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The baseless comment was regarding the smugness of her original comment regarding peoples knowledge of hockey as if they are the definitive hockey reference.
That's your interpretation of it. Just like your opinion, you're entitled to have it but it doesn't mean you're accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
I wasnt asking for respect, people that get all up tight and loose it over someones opinion are the ones that crave that here. Respect me or not I engaged you didnt I? Sorry if people cant handle average conversation without having to puff their typing chests over the internet. Ive been reading this forum for 4 years so I know by calling someone out thats been around was going to rile some feathers. Anyways arent you tired of it? Tired of the same results with these guys? Im over it, Ive been a huge supporter for years and thought these guys were gonna do it, I can no longer support Marleau, Havlat or Clowe simple as that and no I dont need a deep 2 paragraph breakdown of why. That doesnt mean I dont know hockey or know this team intimately.
Sounds like you got tight over someone's opinion in this thread so you obviously are craving it to some extent yourself. Another hypocritical stance you're taking here.

If you thought these guys were going to do it, your expectations were too high in the first place. Where did they finish last year and what has changed? They'd have to be lucky to win the Cup.

And it's great that you may no longer support some of these players and want to express that opinion, people may want to know why. While it doesn't prove you don't know hockey or the team, you're not going to convince anyone that you are anything more than someone playing the water works over the team when you fail to back up anything you're saying with anything substantial. Generally, that's how adult conversations go.

My suggestion to you is that if you're over it and don't want to actually converse about it, follow another team or visit a forum where complaining about the Sharks with baseless comments is more acceptable.

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02-20-2013, 01:31 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
I wasnt asking for respect, people that get all up tight and loose it over someones opinion are the ones that crave that here. Respect me or not I engaged you didnt I? Sorry if people cant handle average conversation without having to puff their typing chests over the internet. Ive been reading this forum for 4 years so I know by calling someone out thats been around was going to rile some feathers. Anyways arent you tired of it? Tired of the same results with these guys? Im over it, Ive been a huge supporter for years and thought these guys were gonna do it, I can no longer support Marleau, Havlat or Clowe simple as that and no I dont need a deep 2 paragraph breakdown of why. That doesnt mean I dont know hockey or know this team intimately.
That's my issue. You didn't have conversation. You told me that my opinion was baseless, and then when I supported my opinion, you ignored and disregarded it. I would love to have an actual conversation with you, but you haven't said anything hockey-related except that you can't stand Marleau/Havlat/Clowe and that you think Galiardi is garbage and Marleau is streaky. I responded to all those points. You didn't respond back.

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