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GMs to discuss size of goalie equipment

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:50 PM
  #26
Gigantor The Goalie
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
It's simple, padding should not be allowed to extend past the body by more than about 1 inch. You can have as much padding out front as you want, but if your shin is 5" across, the pad should be no more than 6".
And that's where goaltending changes to getting wider people to play net. You obviously underestimate the power and quickness of a shot a player from Junior upwards will have. It'll be like watching a soccer goalie who will be throwing their whole body at the puck in order to try and stop it.

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02-19-2013, 05:53 PM
  #27
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The way you make it seem is that it's a scorer's job to beat the goalie. It's the goalie's job to not allow that to happen. The skaters shouldn't be thinking, "What nice move/pass can I do to beat this goalie?" They should be able to shoot in the plenty of places there should be an opening and the goalie should be quick enough to stop it.

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02-19-2013, 05:57 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
The way you make it seem is that it's a scorer's job to beat the goalie. It's the goalie's job to not allow that to happen. The skaters shouldn't be thinking, "What nice move/pass can I do to beat this goalie?" They should be able to shoot in the plenty of places there should be an opening and the goalie should be quick enough to stop it.
Scorers are suppose to score and the goalies are there to stop them. Pretty sure thats how its always been unless I read the manual wrong. And the puck moves faster then a goalie can move which is why if a player is in the slot its almost a guaranteed goal. The further the puck is out the more time a goalie has to react due to the puck slowing down over time. Simple science.

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02-19-2013, 06:12 PM
  #29
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Goalie equipment technology (if that's the right word) has had a much greater effect than sheer size. Pads are lighter, thinner, more water resistant, more breathable, yet more protective. Then we have team systems, goalie style, and goalie body size which all play a huge role. IMO pure equipment size is a minor factor here, but it's the easiest one to change and assign as a scapegoat.

I'm fine with trimming down equipment. But once goalies adjust, they will be just as good as before. If you want to increase scoring, you need to look elsewhere, e.g. blocked shots and net size.

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02-19-2013, 06:17 PM
  #30
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It can't hurt to reduce the thigh rises and cut back on some of the excessive chest protector padding. If the NHL wants to be diplomatic about it, go back to wooden sticks as well.

Better training, increased average height, and team defense are all valid reasons why scoring is down. That said, it'll be a different game when shots from outside the "house" become dangerous again. Teams will have to pressure the points and sideboards again, opening up the slot. Players will opt to shoot instead of make an extra pass that is incomplete or gets intercepted. I think you'll see a different game. I don't think its going to be the same game with the addition of the odd "bad goal" and more injuries.

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02-19-2013, 06:20 PM
  #31
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I've observed that part of the reason for the lack of scoring chances nowadays, is that when the goalie is unscreened, few players are really very dangerous from anywhere that isn't a few feet from the net.

Teams also play so cautiously, that it is harder to scorer off the transition than it used to be. So a team's primary ways of scoring (off the transition, and off the cycle) have had their effectiveness minimized.

Shrinking goalie equipment shoud alleviate some of this. Players, especially snipers, become more valuable and force the defense to challenge them.

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02-19-2013, 06:21 PM
  #32
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I hope to god I never see an increase in net size during my lifetime. They've done enough changes to the game already. It's time to leave it alone.

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02-19-2013, 06:51 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I hope to god I never see an increase in net size during my lifetime. They've done enough changes to the game already. It's time to leave it alone.
But goalies changed the game by wearing monstrous-sized pads. Are you in favor of having goalies decrease their pad and chest protector size?

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02-19-2013, 07:04 PM
  #34
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Box lacrosse goalie leg pads. Shots are just as hard if not harder, and they can be coming from any angle, not just from the ice level. Granted the puck is frozen, but there is no way the hockey goalie needs that much more padding.

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02-19-2013, 07:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
From every goalie in the world, we don't care what you think is exciting or not. Our job is to stop pucks. If we want to use the most successful goaltending technique then we're going to use it. Of course we want to be in position and look big, thats the point. Goalies realized "hey why should we make it easy on the shooter? Lets move out a bit and make it as difficult as possible to score".

Don't see why the onus is on us goalies to change just because you players can't score. Why is it our fault? We do we have to take steps backwards while you players get to move forwards?
I think this must be akin to the argument defensive backs in the NFL made back in the day.

DBs: Hey, why should we make it easy for the receiver to run his route. We're going the chuck him and bump him all over the field until the ball is in the air.

League Officials: The fans enjoy watching long passes completed, so you won't be touching the receivers anymore after they get 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage.

See how easy that was. When a position starts to dominate a sport, not necessarily by talent, but by technique (which is all the butterfly is for a goalie, technique) then the rules can be changed to cause players to modify that style and use their talent more than the technique to get the job done.

I enjoyed watching the acrobatic goalies back in the day. I didn't mind seeing the odd well-placed slap shot from outside the faceoff dots find the back of the net either.

I don't really care if the goalies are taking a step backward if the game is more enjoyable for the fans to watch. Right now the amount of net a forward has to shoot at is dramatically lower than it was back in the day. Back then a goalie with a GAA of 3.00 was considered fair. Anything under 3.00 and the goalie was much better than average.

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02-19-2013, 07:22 PM
  #36
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Make goalie equipment '80s size. If goalies can adjust and stop just as many as before (I'd be surprised if they do), fantastic for them.

At least the standard will be the same. Right now, it's clearly not.

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02-19-2013, 07:42 PM
  #37
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Yes it's something that should have already been re-visited and changed.

Along with the other points already brought up today's defensive schemes and defensive techniques have made the slap-shot mostly useless.

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02-19-2013, 08:26 PM
  #38
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As a former goalie, I'm all for reduced equipment size (up to the point where safety is compromised). The smaller the equipment, the greater the emphasis on reflexes and anticipation. Makes the position more challenging ... and therefore more exciting - regardless of how it affects GPP.

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02-19-2013, 08:26 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post


Box lacrosse goalie leg pads. Shots are just as hard if not harder, and they can be coming from any angle, not just from the ice level. Granted the puck is frozen, but there is no way the hockey goalie needs that much more padding.
I remember playing a goalie who had pillows underneath his shoulder pads and wore a pitch back. And still put up 15 goals on the *******.

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02-19-2013, 08:41 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post


Box lacrosse goalie leg pads. Shots are just as hard if not harder, and they can be coming from any angle, not just from the ice level. Granted the puck is frozen, but there is no way the hockey goalie needs that much more padding.
You seriously want goalies in ice hockey to wear those?
You know what, since it's your bright idea you can be the first to test them against Weber or Chara. Since obviously lacrosse shots are just as hard this shouldn't be a problem. If you want we can always bring in Pulock from the WHL to help you test them.


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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think this must be akin to the argument defensive backs in the NFL made back in the day.

DBs: Hey, why should we make it easy for the receiver to run his route. We're going the chuck him and bump him all over the field until the ball is in the air.

League Officials: The fans enjoy watching long passes completed, so you won't be touching the receivers anymore after they get 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage.

See how easy that was. When a position starts to dominate a sport, not necessarily by talent, but by technique (which is all the butterfly is for a goalie, technique) then the rules can be changed to cause players to modify that style and use their talent more than the technique to get the job done.

I enjoyed watching the acrobatic goalies back in the day. I didn't mind seeing the odd well-placed slap shot from outside the faceoff dots find the back of the net either.

I don't really care if the goalies are taking a step backward if the game is more enjoyable for the fans to watch. Right now the amount of net a forward has to shoot at is dramatically lower than it was back in the day. Back then a goalie with a GAA of 3.00 was considered fair. Anything under 3.00 and the goalie was much better than average.
Goalies have made so much progress into perfecting their craft and now we're going to say "sorry you've gotten too good for us"? The goalies are not impeding the shooters chance to shot or preventing them from getting into position shoot. We just do our job and stop the puck. What your asking for is a plethora of Pens/Flyers 2012 playoff series type games. Never been so bored in my life to see so many goals. Rather see a great goaltending duel when both goalies are just making crazy saves then two goalies who are struggling to stop the puck.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Make goalie equipment '80s size. If goalies can adjust and stop just as many as before (I'd be surprised if they do), fantastic for them.

At least the standard will be the same. Right now, it's clearly not.
We go back to 80's equipment, you skaters go back to tube skates with wooden sticks and no curves. That way its fair. You take 20 steps backwards and so will we.

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02-19-2013, 08:56 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
We go back to 80's equipment, you skaters go back to tube skates with wooden sticks and no curves. That way its fair. You take 20 steps backwards and so will we.
This seems a disingenuous argument, especially if, as you say, "Goalies have made so much progress into perfecting their craft." If it's about craft, then the increased size of the equipment shouldn't be sacrosanct. In fact, if it's about improved craft, then the size of the equipment should be reduced, to put further emphasis on craft, rather than on how best to utilize equipment that does more than just protect the player.

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02-19-2013, 09:12 PM
  #42
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It might help if you stopped saying "we goalies" like you're some sort of all-star goalie. I mean really...

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02-19-2013, 09:16 PM
  #43
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It might help if you stopped saying "we goalies" like you're some sort of all-star goalie. I mean really...
Yeah I'm an all-star like Dany Heatley
What everyone here seems to miss is that this change will not only affect the NHL, but every league underneath it. Any changes to goaltending in the NHL has a trickle down affect. I had to get almost all new gear due to the changes after the 2004-05 lockout. So did everyone else. That's a lot of money. Plus I know lots of goalies from teaching them as well as listening to the older goalies as well.

Sorry my goalie experience outweighs yours. I'm sure your experience on the forward/defense positions outweigh mine though so you can take solace in that. I've been a goalie for about 14 years, I really hope by now I know what I'm talking about.

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02-19-2013, 10:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post

From every goalie in the world, we don't care what you think is exciting or not. Our job is to stop pucks. If we want to use the most successful goaltending technique then we're going to use it. Of course we want to be in position and look big, thats the point. Goalies realized "hey why should we make it easy on the shooter? Lets move out a bit and make it as difficult as possible to score".
To every goalie in the world. Stop taking the easy way out of your job. You want to make millions playing hockey then for the love of pete do something that truly seperates yourselves from each other.

You should be ashamed that these no name hacks come in to the league and threaten records. Brian Elliot is a crappy goalie.

God there's nothing more annoying than having some guy that played goalie in some dark corner of the universe come on here and defend them like he's some kind of NHL starting netminder. You can have as much padding as you want in your mens league bud, nobody is watching you. This is the NHL

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02-19-2013, 10:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
You seriously want goalies in ice hockey to wear those?
You know what, since it's your bright idea you can be the first to test them against Weber or Chara. Since obviously lacrosse shots are just as hard this shouldn't be a problem. If you want we can always bring in Pulock from the WHL to help you test them.




Goalies have made so much progress into perfecting their craft and now we're going to say "sorry you've gotten too good for us"? The goalies are not impeding the shooters chance to shot or preventing them from getting into position shoot. We just do our job and stop the puck. What your asking for is a plethora of Pens/Flyers 2012 playoff series type games. Never been so bored in my life to see so many goals. Rather see a great goaltending duel when both goalies are just making crazy saves then two goalies who are struggling to stop the puck.



We go back to 80's equipment, you skaters go back to tube skates with wooden sticks and no curves. That way its fair. You take 20 steps backwards and so will we.
The problem is Goalies today don't really duel, its all positional, they block more than they save in today's game. They are taught just let the puck hit you. Rinne/Price for example have there best games when it looks like there not trying, when there are no great saves.

Part of the reason is the sheer size of goalie, since I was 15 every goalie I played with was over 6 foot, most in NHL are 6-2plus. So they will cover more of the net. Butterfly has taken over, again they are being taught to cover net, play angles, not use reflexes as in past. And part of it is equipment, its massive. Everyone knows it, you don't feel anything in any equipment anymore. This includes skaters, my shoulder/elbows are massive, nothing like my dads stuff.

As a skater I knew I could get into corner hard and wouldn't feel it, like goalies know if there playing angle and puck hits them they won't feel it, and it will be stopped. I really think a lot of equipment has to be re-engineered to just protect player. If that means smaller goalie pads/chest protectors and brings back more reflex's, goalie movement, more skill in net I am for it.

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02-19-2013, 10:38 PM
  #46
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anyone who thinks the goalie equipment need to shrink should do some homework most of the equipment has not increased in size, as has been pointed out many times. as for shrinking chest protectors, yes lets make them the smallest they can go and see home many goalies will get injured. you may think goalies have gotten to big, but with the increase in speed of both the game and shots, the extra protection is warranted. ask any goalie, shots, even with all that protection still can hurt

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02-19-2013, 10:39 PM
  #47
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To every goalie in the world. Stop taking the easy way out of your job. You want to make millions playing hockey then for the love of pete do something that truly seperates yourselves from each other.

You should be ashamed that these no name hacks come in to the league and threaten records. Brian Elliot is a crappy goalie.

God there's nothing more annoying than having some guy that played goalie in some dark corner of the universe come on here and defend them like he's some kind of NHL starting netminder. You can have as much padding as you want in your mens league bud, nobody is watching you. This is the NHL
There's nothing more annoying then people who have never played goalie before and come in here and try to dictate to others what they have to do(sound familiar?). Anyways its not the equipment that helped out Elliot, it was the system he played in or maybe *gasp* he got better in the off-season. He wore the same equipment since the lockout so I highly doubt its that.

What goalies are threatening records that are no names? Goalies are allowed to get out in certain seasons, improve, and work hard towards their goals. An NHL goalies talent is what separates him from everyone else. If every goalie was the exact same as you claim then why are some paid more then others? If a goalie is so easily replaceable then after a few seasons a new goalie should take their place.

Goaltending is not as easy as just going down and hoping the puck hits you. The little kids that do get scored on often. Goaltending is 90% mental and 10% physical. There's so many things that a goalie has to focus on for one shot its incredible. Goaltending in minor hockey has become easier to play, however it has not become easier to make it into the NHL as a goalie.

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02-19-2013, 10:44 PM
  #48
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The problem is Goalies today don't really duel, its all positional, they block more than they save in today's game. They are taught just let the puck hit you. Rinne/Price for example have there best games when it looks like there not trying, when there are no great saves.

Part of the reason is the sheer size of goalie, since I was 15 every goalie I played with was over 6 foot, most in NHL are 6-2plus. So they will cover more of the net. Butterfly has taken over, again they are being taught to cover net, play angles, not use reflexes as in past. And part of it is equipment, its massive. Everyone knows it, you don't feel anything in any equipment anymore. This includes skaters, my shoulder/elbows are massive, nothing like my dads stuff.

As a skater I knew I could get into corner hard and wouldn't feel it, like goalies know if there playing angle and puck hits them they won't feel it, and it will be stopped. I really think a lot of equipment has to be re-engineered to just protect player. If that means smaller goalie pads/chest protectors and brings back more reflex's, goalie movement, more skill in net I am for it.
What you just wrote screams "I've never played goalie before". As someone who's played goalie and still does, I still feel every shot except for in the pads. Although even when I wore old school heaton pads when I was young I still couldn't feel it per se. You have no idea what goalies are taught, you only think you know what goalies are taught.

Thank you for bringing up Price and Rinne. I had a goalie coach tell me during a tryout that he didn't want to see any desperate saves, why? Simply because if you needed to make a desperate save it means you were out of position. What's so wrong with goalies being in position? It's very important to be in position or else everyone in the rink yells at you. Especially the coach that has never played goalie either.

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02-20-2013, 12:37 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
What you just wrote screams "I've never played goalie before". As someone who's played goalie and still does, I still feel every shot except for in the pads. Although even when I wore old school heaton pads when I was young I still couldn't feel it per se. You have no idea what goalies are taught, you only think you know what goalies are taught.

Thank you for bringing up Price and Rinne. I had a goalie coach tell me during a tryout that he didn't want to see any desperate saves, why? Simply because if you needed to make a desperate save it means you were out of position. What's so wrong with goalies being in position? It's very important to be in position or else everyone in the rink yells at you. Especially the coach that has never played goalie either.
So what?

Nothing wrong with a goalie playing the percentages by being in position, but if he is just going to flop down into the butterfly and let the puck hit him I would like the percentage to be a good deal less than the approximately 95% it is today.

What's wrong with asking a goalie to make a SAVE? Not just get hit by the puck, but you know a SAVE. When was the last time anyone here has heard a play-by-play guy say the words, "Kick save, and a beauty!!" That took reflexes and skill, and the goalies today are certainly good enough athletes to make SAVES.

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02-20-2013, 12:42 AM
  #50
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So what?

Nothing wrong with a goalie playing the percentages by being in position, but if he is just going to flop down into the butterfly and let the puck hit him I would like the percentage to be a good deal less than the approximately 95% it is today.
Technique has evolved to play the percentages. Being in the butterfly simply represents the most likely scenario to make a save in many situations. It's only effective because goalies have gotten larger, physically speaking. Teams have also adopted their defense to this style, letting teams shoot from outside all day while protecting the slot. This limits scoring chances greatly. It has little to do with equipment size.

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I've seen some fans go so far as to argue that the main difference between the 1980s scoring environment and the scoring environment today is that goalies wear much larger equipment.

I think those claims are completely unfounded. The reasons for the rapid improvement in goalie numbers over the last two decades have been improved goalie technique and better defensive play. Goalie equipment size has been a minor factor.

The main proof for this is the way that the goalie crop turned over in the late '80s and early '90s. The old guys were phased out of the game, a new wave took over, and there was a rapid increase in the league-average save percentage. All of this happened before goalies started increasing the size of their equipment.
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...t-was-not.html

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