HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Anaheim Ducks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Revisiting the Andy Mcdonald trade

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-20-2013, 06:39 AM
  #1
Ducks
Registered User
 
Ducks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riverside, Calif.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
Revisiting the Andy Mcdonald trade

It still hurts. Although this year with Bobby doing a good job at 2C and Holland/Bonino stepping up it feels like the first season in quite a few years that we aren't completely suffering from the Mcdonald/Weight deal.

God. I still can't believe Burke made that move...then bolted to Toronto shortly after.

Ducks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 07:06 AM
  #2
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,299
vCash: 50
Yeah, Burke left like a chump. But at least he got canned before his work in Toronto paid off.

Spicy Porkins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 07:27 AM
  #3
Vipers31
Moderator
Advanced Stagnostic
 
Vipers31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bergisch Gladbach
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,076
vCash: 500
Why do we need to revisit it? It's brought up constantly. Sure, it ended up bad, but there were certain circumstances at the time. MacDonald played some of the worst hockey of his career those months being without Selanne (well, we did learn that he wasn't entirely unable to produce without him... ), we had to make tagging room to get Niedermayer back, and there weren't a ton of options. It's not pretty, but it wasn't the easiest of hands to play for Burke.

Vipers31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 08:47 AM
  #4
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,299
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
Why do we need to revisit it? It's brought up constantly. Sure, it ended up bad, but there were certain circumstances at the time. MacDonald played some of the worst hockey of his career those months being without Selanne (well, we did learn that he wasn't entirely unable to produce without him... ), we had to make tagging room to get Niedermayer back, and there weren't a ton of options. It's not pretty, but it wasn't the easiest of hands to play for Burke.
No, it wasn't the easiest of hands to play. But Burke took the lemons Nieds and Teemu gave him with their staycations and squeezed them into everyone's eyes, and then weaseled off to Toronto. Not a hero's exit, even though he did some great things here.

Spicy Porkins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 09:08 AM
  #5
Vipers31
Moderator
Advanced Stagnostic
 
Vipers31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bergisch Gladbach
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
No, it wasn't the easiest of hands to play. But Burke took the lemons Nieds and Teemu gave him with their staycations and squeezed them into everyone's eyes, and then weaseled off to Toronto. Not a hero's exit, even though he did some great things here.
I don't think he really weaseled out of here, given what that kind of characterisation entails IMO. I think he played with open cards with the owners who simply respected his wish to move. But otherwise, yeah, I don't have any issues with recognizing the shape he left us in, and that deal - while difficult given the situation - sure as hell didn't help. I'm all for a balanced review of Burke's time here.

Vipers31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 10:09 AM
  #6
snarktacular
Moderator
Ducks tank is on!
 
snarktacular's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 16,315
vCash: 500
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.

snarktacular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 10:09 AM
  #7
JabbaJabba
Registered User
 
JabbaJabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,941
vCash: 552
I'm all in for signing McDonald in the offseason. Just think about the possible McDonald-Ryan-Selšnne -line!

JabbaJabba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 10:20 AM
  #8
DucksLove
Rookie User
 
DucksLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Apple Valley
Posts: 8
vCash: 500
Andy

That would make me very happy to.have him back

Him and Leclerc were my favorite back in the day

DucksLove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 10:51 AM
  #9
Lord Flashheart
Squadron Commander
 
Lord Flashheart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bananaland crapital
Country: Croatia
Posts: 3,643
vCash: 500
Further proof that schedule where one has 5 days break, then back-to-back and then 17 games in March is inherently retarded.

Lord Flashheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 11:00 AM
  #10
TheJoeMan
In Bob We Trust
 
TheJoeMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,597
vCash: 500
Are we really going to rehash a trade from over five years ago? While we're at it why don't we revisit the Selanne trade? Or how about the firing of Ron Wilson? I know, trading Tugnut in favor of Hebert. That one has been gnawing at me for a while.

Seriously though hindsight is always 20/20 and trades like this always look bad after the fact. But at the time it needed to happen. Yes signing Bertuzzi was a bad move and the almost-retirement from Scotty and Teemu handcuffed us bad. But Burke just won a cup and wasn't about to be handcuffed by not doing anything on July 1st. How could he know Bertuzzi was going to be so crappy or Scotty and Teemu actually had some more game in them or that Andy was going to have such a bad start to his season? Need I remind you though that that team was the best defensive team we ever had and we happened to finish fourth in the conference. But all anyone can remember is Dallas getting the better of us in the playoffs.

But it's been five years and I think it's safe to safe we've moved on from that trade.

TheJoeMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 12:05 PM
  #11
Eddie Shack
RIP KevFist
 
Eddie Shack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,103
vCash: 500
Yeah, in hindsight it hurt. But all of the aftermath was a direct result of winning the Cup. And I'm not giving back the Cup.

Eddie Shack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 12:11 PM
  #12
Ducks
Registered User
 
Ducks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riverside, Calif.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
I'm surprised by how negative some of you are being about discussing a trade that had major consequences for the team. If you don't like the topic feel free not to participate, nobody is forcing you. There's really no reason to come in here and make negative comments about the topic though.

Ducks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 12:16 PM
  #13
Ducks
Registered User
 
Ducks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riverside, Calif.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.
I agree with all of your points, especially the Bertuzzi signing. I thought Schneider played well while he was here, maybe expectations were too high for him coming in expected by a lot of people to be Niedermayer's replacement. Getting rid of Mcdonald after half a season where the entire team was underperforming just felt like the wrong answer.

Ducks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 12:53 PM
  #14
DuckJet
Destiny pls
 
DuckJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Funkytown
Country: Kazakhstan
Posts: 36,491
vCash: 69
Andy Mac wasn't scoring. He needed Teemu to be successful. Honestly, right before the trade Andy Mac was playing like Cogliano when he first started here (not this season's Cogliano). Maybe even worse than that. He just didn't know what to do to create opportunities. Weight was a bad idea, but McDonald was almost just as bad at the time. Carlyle probably thought he couldn't get him our of his funk, plus wasn't there an issue with cap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.

well said.

DuckJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 01:09 PM
  #15
Disgruntled Goat
Registered User
 
Disgruntled Goat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Norfolk, VA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,013
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
Are we really going to rehash a trade from over five years ago? While we're at it why don't we revisit the Selanne trade? Or how about the firing of Ron Wilson? I know, trading Tugnut in favor of Hebert. That one has been gnawing at me for a while.

Seriously though hindsight is always 20/20 and trades like this always look bad after the fact. But at the time it needed to happen. Yes signing Bertuzzi was a bad move and the almost-retirement from Scotty and Teemu handcuffed us bad. But Burke just won a cup and wasn't about to be handcuffed by not doing anything on July 1st. How could he know Bertuzzi was going to be so crappy or Scotty and Teemu actually had some more game in them or that Andy was going to have such a bad start to his season? Need I remind you though that that team was the best defensive team we ever had and we happened to finish fourth in the conference. But all anyone can remember is Dallas getting the better of us in the playoffs.

But it's been five years and I think it's safe to safe we've moved on from that trade.
I'd like to revisit the Patrick Traverse for Samuel Pahlsson trade. Hugely underrated trade

Disgruntled Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 02:03 PM
  #16
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,299
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
I don't think he really weaseled out of here, given what that kind of characterisation entails IMO. I think he played with open cards with the owners who simply respected his wish to move. But otherwise, yeah, I don't have any issues with recognizing the shape he left us in, and that deal - while difficult given the situation - sure as hell didn't help. I'm all for a balanced review of Burke's time here.
It fits comfortably within my definition of weaseling. YMMV.

Spicy Porkins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 02:04 PM
  #17
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
 
Hockey Duckie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: southern cal
Posts: 2,745
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks View Post
I'm surprised by how negative some of you are being about discussing a trade that had major consequences for the team. If you don't like the topic feel free not to participate, nobody is forcing you. There's really no reason to come in here and make negative comments about the topic though.
If you don't like the response, then you don't have to make the topic. The topic also did not state, "Let's take a positive revisit of the Andy McDonald trade."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks View Post
There's really no reason to come in here and make negative comments about other posters though.
There. Fixed.

Anyhow, talking about this is like talking about an ex that kinda screwed up a part of your life a while back. When I read your topic I immediately envision Big Bert and Schneider. You can see the accident that is about to occur, but all you can do is to close your eyes, turn your head away, and absorb the fecal consequences once stupid idea connects with long term fiscal responsibility and lack of prospect growth. It's almost as asinine as the notion of "Spending is the path for growth and prosperity." when there's no monies in the till and no new jobs being developed. Oh wait... it's the exact same problem.

Hockey Duckie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 02:16 PM
  #18
Kevin Forbes
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.
Regarding #1 & #2
I remember shortly after this trade went down making a detailed post about the other options that were available on the market that summer and how much they went for. The Ducks were looking for the closest thing to a top line forward and a top pairing defenseman and were willing to accept a top six forward and a top four defenseman. There wasn't a lot available for the price point Anaheim had available (remember this was at the same time as the Penner fiasco).

Regarding #7
I'm convinced that if this happened, the Ducks would not have gotten the extra 2.5 seasons from Niedermayer nor the extra 4.5 (and counting) seasons from Selanne.

__________________
Twitter / Blog / About.me
Kevin Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 02:21 PM
  #19
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,299
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
Regarding #1 & #2
I remember shortly after this trade went down making a detailed post about the other options that were available on the market that summer and how much they went for. The Ducks were looking for the closest thing to a top line forward and a top pairing defenseman and were willing to accept a top six forward and a top four defenseman. There wasn't a lot available for the price point Anaheim had available (remember this was at the same time as the Penner fiasco).

Regarding #7
I'm convinced that if this happened, the Ducks would not have gotten the extra 2.5 seasons from Niedermayer nor the extra 4.5 (and counting) seasons from Selanne.
Agreed on that last bit. Burke (and later Murray) played Niedermayer and Selanne just so. You have to do what it takes to get em back, if they can be gotten back. The fault for that lies on those individuals.

Spicy Porkins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 02:22 PM
  #20
Ducks
Registered User
 
Ducks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riverside, Calif.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Duckie View Post
If you don't like the response, then you don't have to make the topic...
So, you're saying I should read minds? Also, kudos for rephrasing my comment to criticize me for asking people to refrain from "this is a stupid topic" type comments. You see the irony here right?

In any case, I'm enjoying the actual discussion that's going on here about the trade. 2C has been one of our biggest struggles for the last 5 years due to the shortsightedness of the andy mac trade imo.

Ducks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #21
snarktacular
Moderator
Ducks tank is on!
 
snarktacular's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 16,315
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
Regarding #1 & #2
I remember shortly after this trade went down making a detailed post about the other options that were available on the market that summer and how much they went for. The Ducks were looking for the closest thing to a top line forward and a top pairing defenseman and were willing to accept a top six forward and a top four defenseman. There wasn't a lot available for the price point Anaheim had available (remember this was at the same time as the Penner fiasco).

Regarding #7
I'm convinced that if this happened, the Ducks would not have gotten the extra 2.5 seasons from Niedermayer nor the extra 4.5 (and counting) seasons from Selanne.
No there wasn't a whole lot else available. And those were some big holes.

But my thing is Burke went and got pretty much the best replacements available. I believe Schneider was #2 in terms of offensive defensemen (only behind Rafalski). And Bert was risky, but he was still moderately high in terms of potential. All while knowing those two might come back. And if they did come back, he would have been screwed. So you basically have to weigh the chance they will return, and budget accordingly.

I think of it this way. Weigh things out according to probabilities. Take a hypothetical situation. You have a star player, Niederlanne in the same situation. He makes 10 million dollars (and is still a bargain at that price). You then estimate the chance he returns. Say it's 60%. So you only go out and offer for a ~4-5 million dollar player as a replacement.

What Burke did was go out and spend 10 million dollars for a replacement. Then Niederlanne returns and he's all capped out. I don't think he had proper contingency planning.



If he provides an ultimatum, there is a good chance they leave the team. But the point is it prevents a big cap cluster**** like we ended up in. My list isn't necessarily a list of things I would recommend to do, just lots of reasonable actions that would have prevented the McDonald trade.

snarktacular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 04:19 PM
  #22
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
Need I remind you though that that team was the best defensive team we ever had and we happened to finish fourth in the conference. But all anyone can remember is Dallas getting the better of us in the playoffs.

But it's been five years and I think it's safe to safe we've moved on from that trade.
Need I remind you that the Ducks were 27-22-7 before Selanne came back and 20-5-1 with Selanne. They wouldn't have made it to the playoffs at the pace they were playing without Selanne and Nieds.

jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 04:32 PM
  #23
Ducksgo*
#EtemUp
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood CA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,898
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Ducksgo*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks View Post
It still hurts. Although this year with Bobby doing a good job at 2C and Holland/Bonino stepping up it feels like the first season in quite a few years that we aren't completely suffering from the Mcdonald/Weight deal.

God. I still can't believe Burke made that move...then bolted to Toronto shortly after.
Yupp Dead Weight for Andy McDonald

Ducksgo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 06:50 PM
  #24
snarktacular
Moderator
Ducks tank is on!
 
snarktacular's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 16,315
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducksgo View Post
Yupp Dead Weight for Andy McDonald
Hey don't sell the trade short. We also got Michael Birner. That completely changes things.

snarktacular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2013, 06:59 PM
  #25
Getz2perry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,954
vCash: 500
why you got to bring up bad time :'(

still my favorite nhl player tho

Getz2perry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.