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GMs to discuss size of goalie equipment

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:50 AM
  #51
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Technique has evolved to play the percentages. Being in the butterfly simply represents the most likely scenario to make a save in many situations. It's only effective because goalies have gotten larger, physically speaking. Teams have also adopted their defense to this style, letting teams shoot from outside all day while protecting the slot. This limits scoring chances greatly. It has little to do with equipment size.
Fine, make the nets slightly bigger then. All I am saying is that their isn't as much skill involvedf in perfecting a technique as there is in having to use reflexes and athletic skill to make saves.

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02-20-2013, 01:17 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Fine, make the nets slightly bigger then. All I am saying is that their isn't as much skill involvedf in perfecting a technique as there is in having to use reflexes and athletic skill to make saves.
Making the nets bigger would only drive goaltenders to go down in the butterfly more. It does not change the fact that the butterfly is statistically the best approach to defending a net. I still see plenty of amazing saves every year, but asking goalies to abandon a given technique for the sake of entertainment is a little silly. With the prevalence of point shots and redirects, the butterfly has become a necessity.

The ideal situation is actually a larger playing surface, in conjunction with slightly larger nets. Most teams defend cross ice passes and zone entries easily, leading to less meaningful scoring chances aka dump and chase. But that's not a realistic solution, given the logistics involved.

A radical idea would be to remove the bluelines/off-side altogether. That would sure change up how teams approach things. You could also look at requiring one forward and opposing defender to stay opposite the red line during the play, leading to more 4 on 4 hockey. These are both radical departures from traditional hockey. Something that may not be a welcome change. I certainly don't want to see nets widened. There's even more beauty to a well executed play nowadays, and scoring still remains higher than the dead puck era.

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02-20-2013, 01:30 AM
  #53
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Making the nets bigger would only drive goaltenders to go down in the butterfly more. It does not change the fact that the butterfly is statistically the best approach to defending a net. I still see plenty of amazing saves every year, but asking goalies to abandon a given technique for the sake of entertainment is a little silly. With the prevalence of point shots and redirects, the butterfly has become a necessity.

The ideal situation is actually a larger playing surface, in conjunction with slightly larger nets. Most teams defend cross ice passes and zone entries easily, leading to less meaningful scoring chances aka dump and chase. But that's not a realistic solution, given the logistics involved.

A radical idea would be to remove the bluelines/off-side altogether. That would sure change up how teams approach things. You could also look at requiring one forward and opposing defender to stay opposite the red line during the play, leading to more 4 on 4 hockey. These are both radical departures from traditional hockey. Something that may not be a welcome change. I certainly don't want to see nets widened. There's even more beauty to a well executed play nowadays, and scoring still remains higher than the dead puck era.
A bigger ice surface isn't likely to happen. Having more net to shoot at and making true snipers a threat to score from outside the "house" would force teams to defend more of the perimeter and open up the middle of the ice a little.

Right now teams just pack the slot area.

Your idea on removing offside calls from the game will never get any traction.

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02-20-2013, 01:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Your idea on removing offside calls from the game will never get any traction.
This is the league that famously didn't allow forward passes once upon a time. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility. Changes that strain facilities, like ice surface size, are extremely unlikely though.

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02-20-2013, 01:48 AM
  #55
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Defensive teams with good goalies are the biggest whiners in this thread. Go figure.

Its funny because the people whining say its not the gear, yet then why are they so worried about it?

Its hard to realize how big the 38s are until you realize the fact that the same goalies that wear those, also wear the huge shoulder pads too.

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02-20-2013, 02:14 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
Goalie equipment is absolutely way bigger than it needs to be just to protect the player. With that said, it won't make that big of a difference even if they get it down to reasonable sizes.
They need to make the catching glove just that. A glove. Not a fishing net with a huge cheater as well.

They need to make the blocker to cover the hand. Thats it. Use a fabricated leg shield for the fore arm.

They need to take the football sized shoulder pads right out. Again use shoulder pads that are stronger but much smaller in size to conform to the size of the shoulder.

Finally and most importantly, the size of the pants should be no bigger than the other players pants using denser material , and the upper body chest protector cannot puff out. It has to huge the contours of the goalies torso.

Do this and there will be way more net to shoot at and goals will go up period. Going down into the butterfly will no longer block most of the net.


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02-20-2013, 02:29 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
So what?

Nothing wrong with a goalie playing the percentages by being in position, but if he is just going to flop down into the butterfly and let the puck hit him I would like the percentage to be a good deal less than the approximately 95% it is today.

What's wrong with asking a goalie to make a SAVE? Not just get hit by the puck, but you know a SAVE. When was the last time anyone here has heard a play-by-play guy say the words, "Kick save, and a beauty!!" That took reflexes and skill, and the goalies today are certainly good enough athletes to make SAVES.
Last week Brodeur made a beauty of a kicksave.....but he's about the only one I can recall of late

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02-20-2013, 02:32 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Technique has evolved to play the percentages. Being in the butterfly simply represents the most likely scenario to make a save in many situations. It's only effective because goalies have gotten larger, physically speaking. Teams have also adopted their defense to this style, letting teams shoot from outside all day while protecting the slot. This limits scoring chances greatly. It has little to do with equipment size.

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...t-was-not.html
I'll counter with >>>>>
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The weight reduction, lack of water retention, better shaped and better at holding that shape pads allowed for better stances and technical play.
Does buddy mention that at all?
You could not go down with anywhere near the frequency that goalies do today. You would be so dead by the third period and your pads would weigh even more by that point on top of it.
And honestly, how effective does anyone think the butterfly was when you covered at least 25% less net when you did it back then.
Guys like Tony O and Dan Bouchard were known as butterfly goalies but they used it maybe 30-40% of the time. They would barely qualify as hybrids in today's NHL heh.

As I said earlier, my style changed overnight with synthetic equipment.
I didn't just suddenly become good technically, I always knew my angles. I had to play the way my equipment would allow me to play.

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02-20-2013, 02:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
and scoring still remains higher than the dead puck era.
Huh? Teams averaged 2.6 goals a game last year.

Scoring in the DPE?

1996-97 2.9
1997-98 2.6
1998-99 2.6
1999-00 2.7
2000-01 2.7
2001-02 2.6
2002-03 2.6
2003-04 2.5

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02-20-2013, 07:56 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
They need to make the catching glove just that. A glove. Not a fishing net with a huge cheater as well.

They need to make the blocker to cover the hand. Thats it. Use a fabricated leg shield for the fore arm.

They need to take the football sized shoulder pads right out. Again use shoulder pads that are stronger but much smaller in size to conform to the size of the shoulder.

Finally and most importantly, the size of the pants should be no bigger than the other players pants using denser material , and the upper body chest protector cannot puff out. It has to huge the contours of the goalies torso.

Do this and there will be way more net to shoot at and goals will go up period. Going down into the butterfly will no longer block most of the net.

this line of thought is asinine

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02-20-2013, 08:04 AM
  #61
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Sure maybe goalie equipment has gotten bigger over the years ( remembering that it has already been shrunk once ), but there are many other reasons why scoring can be considered "down".

- The person playing the position is just better. Back in the day, who were the people that started to play goal? It was the fat slow kid who couldn't skate. This was the kid that was put in net. But now, some of your best athletes are in the nets.

- The goalies job is to stop the puck, that's it. And given that is the only job they have, they are going to cheat and innovate and change their equipment to give them an advantage to do the job better. They have found better ways to play the position to give them a better chance at stopping the puck.

- The thing that has made the biggest difference in goalie equipment isn't just size, it's weight. Even if you were to reduce the size of the pads to the size worn in the 1970s, those same size pads today would weight a fraction of what they were back then. As well, the old style pads soaked in water, so the weight of the pads increased as the game went on. Today's pads do not get wet. And the result of lighter, nonabsorbent equipment, is faster reaction times.

- Defense, defense, defense. Teams are concentrating on playing a more defensive game today than in the past. Every forward today is expected to back-check and be in a defensive position. Years ago there were forwards that you would be lucky to even see in their own zone. The game has changed. Every player can be taught to be defensively aware.

- To many teams and the salary cap have diluted the number of star players that could be on one team and thereby reducing the offensive capability to score. Teams can't afford to carry star players like the Oilers in the 80s anymore. JMO, but if there were 20 teams instead of 30 and no cap, you would see more goals being scored.

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02-20-2013, 08:22 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SimplySensational View Post
Defensive teams with good goalies are the biggest whiners in this thread. Go figure.

Its funny because the people whining say its not the gear, yet then why are they so worried about it?

Its hard to realize how big the 38s are until you realize the fact that the same goalies that wear those, also wear the huge shoulder pads too.
Avalanche fan here. Believe me my team is anything but defensive. Love watching Semyon Varlamov play though. The guy is extremely athletic and great on his cros crease movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
They need to make the catching glove just that. A glove. Not a fishing net with a huge cheater as well.

They need to make the blocker to cover the hand. Thats it. Use a fabricated leg shield for the fore arm.

They need to take the football sized shoulder pads right out. Again use shoulder pads that are stronger but much smaller in size to conform to the size of the shoulder.

Finally and most importantly, the size of the pants should be no bigger than the other players pants using denser material , and the upper body chest protector cannot puff out. It has to huge the contours of the goalies torso.

Do this and there will be way more net to shoot at and goals will go up period. Going down into the butterfly will no longer block most of the net.

The glove/trapper is no longer a giant fishing net with a huge cheater. That was taken care of during the 2004/05 lockout. When I had to switch my trapper I noticed quite the difference. Same with the blocker.

Everything has been trimmed down nicely. Goalies have just gotten bigger, improved their stance and able to challenge more aggressively then usual. And for the record the point of the butterfly is to takeaway the lower part of the net. Stop shooting low and maybe you'll score more.

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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Last week Brodeur made a beauty of a kicksave.....but he's about the only one I can recall of late
While kick saves are nice to watch, they usually provide a large rebound which is what every goalie wishes he could avoid. Using your stick to direct the puck is a lot more effective then kicking out back to the middle of the slot.

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I'll counter with >>>>>
And equipment that allows us to play our style
Totally unfair because every player has to use the same equipment and not change it up to make it work better for them right? Why does our equipment need to hinder us while a players equipment helps them skate faster, stop easier, shoot quicker and shoot more accurately.

When we switched from those heavy useless pillows to these sleek things of beauty, I rejoiced and don't know why other goalies wouldn't. "Oh know now I can stop more pucks and be able to play a full game, I really liked becoming useless in the 3rd", yeah I just don't see too many goalies saying that. And yeah lets use goalies from the 70's to use our example, because you know, goalies never change as time goes on. The butterfly may have started with them but Roy is known as the innovator, perfecting the butterfly and starting something that everyone here hates. Of course since Roy used the butterfly he's just a no name threatening records.

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02-20-2013, 08:30 AM
  #63
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Gigantor The Goalie, what exactly is your argument against trimming down the chest protector, pants, and thigh rises? Injuries? Unfairness? It won't change anything?

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02-20-2013, 08:40 AM
  #64
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Limit the positioning of defense. Its truly absurd when certain teams basically got a second goalie on top of the net. I think this is the real issue, if the goalie doesnt have to worry about half the net 99 percent of the time, what difference does a bit of pads make.

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02-20-2013, 08:43 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by HugoSimon View Post
Limit the positioning of defense. Its truly absurd when certain teams basically got a second goalie on top of the net. I think this is the real issue, if the goalie doesnt have to worry about half the net 99 percent of the time, what difference does a bit of pads make.
Part of the argument in favor of reducing goalie equipment size is that shots from the perimeter will become dangerous again, which in turn will discourage defenses from collapsing into 6 goalie systems.

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02-20-2013, 09:22 AM
  #66
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I think the simplest solution is to increase the size of the nets. It just makes sense the goalies now are bigger and even the minimum size needed to keep the goalie safe has just naturally increased. To get the same effect as reducing the size of a goalies equipment you'd only need to increase the nets slightly, probably a couple inches taller and maybe an inch on either side. I dont see any reasonable arguement against increasing the size, it's one based entirely on tradition.

Other suggestions that I've heard like increasing the ice surface, beyond being not feasible since teams arent going to reduce seating capacity, have also shown to be ineffective. European hockey is played on the larger international ice surfaces and the game is no more open, features no more scoring, there than it is here.

Reducing the number of teams to try and increase the talent level would have no affect on scoring. Sure the talent level would go up but that effects the defensive side of the game as well. The 5th and 6th d-men would be much better the 3rd and 4th line would be much better as well. It would be that much harder to get a favorable match against a weak spot in someones lineup (like on a faceoff after an icing).

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02-20-2013, 09:28 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
The goalie equipment size should not change. They should make the nets bigger to be the same ratio of net size to average goalie size as it was years ago.
This is what I think, the NHL allowed the goalie to become bigger with the net remaining the same size. Who does that?

If defensive systems are clogging up the slot, make the net bigger to allow for goals outside of the slot so that defence has to go back to being worried about those players.

Chest protectors could be smaller too, and I've heard people from Brian's say the same thing. They only make them that big because they're allowed to.


Last edited by cutchemist42: 02-20-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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02-20-2013, 09:39 AM
  #68
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It definitely needs to get smaller and I don't want to hear goalies whining about shooters and their fancy, curvy sticks.Fans want to see more exciting plays resulting in goals. Goalies wore much smaller protection 20-30 years ago and with today's technology, I can't see the injury risk changing if some of the sizes are scaled down to more humanesque proportions.Also, it'll be a level playing field for everyone, so skill matters and your catching mitt won't double as a baby cradle anymore.

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02-20-2013, 09:40 AM
  #69
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If they want to increase the number of goals..

I got a solution which will cost nothing!

Play with two pucks at the same time instead of one!

Seriously, make the net a lil bit bigger and you got it.

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02-20-2013, 09:41 AM
  #70
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If they make the net bigger, wouldn't it make sense to require wooden sticks?

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02-20-2013, 10:48 AM
  #71
Gigantor The Goalie
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Gigantor The Goalie, what exactly is your argument against trimming down the chest protector, pants, and thigh rises? Injuries? Unfairness? It won't change anything?
I don't mind trimming down the chest protector a bit along with the pants. As for thigh rises if someone wants to wear massive thigh rises then let them, it will only harm them. Here's something from one of the best goalie equipment companies out there, Vaughn: http://www.vaughnhockey.com/page.asp?id=65


Quote:
Virtually every day we receive a question asking what size of pad should a goaltender wear. Even though there is a mathematical guide for fitting a goal pad, it is still a very personal decision as what a goaltenders likes plays an important part in any equipment decision.

Many of the popular trends are based on misconceptions and lack of proper information. The trend is for goaltenders to wear larger pads with large thigh rise areas. This trend is further promoted by what we all see many professional goaltenders wearing. The physical size of most professional goaltenders these days does dictate that they wear pads this large but this will not work well for most goaltenders. The fact is pads that are too large, especially in the thigh rise area, can cause many problems. Pads that are too tall interfere with skating. Also, while in a basic stance the tops of the pads hit together and cause the five hole to close slower. When going down to the ice, if the tops of the pads touch too soon, it pushes the knees farther apart causing stress to the groin area, thus making if more difficult to balance on the edges of the pads. On top of these facts, pads that are too large simply cause a goaltender to have to move more weight and mass causing slower reaction times. Several pro goaltenders have had nagging groin injuries and it is easy to relate this to wearing oversized goal pads. These types of problems are even more pronounced for a goaltender that is smaller.

Why then have companies promoted pads with extremely tall thigh rise areas? Most pads made today have two base sizes, a 33" and down and a 34" and up. It then becomes a simple matter of adding to or taking away from the thigh area of a pad to make the size bigger or smaller. It is simply the least expensive way to deal with pad sizing as little cost is involved in tooling, testing and engineering. The best performance is going to come from products that fit the best. All Vaughn pads are made on a progressive scale created from actual anatomical measurements to provide the best fit for a person wearing a given size. At times it will still be necessary to have pads custom sized for a goaltender based on their leg measurements, as not all people are the same. A goal pad can even be slightly big with no detriment to performance if that is to a goaltender's liking, but the idea of wearing pads overly extra large is not in the best interest of a goaltender's performance but only a myth. The best performance from any product will always be found in equipment that is properly fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
I think the simplest solution is to increase the size of the nets. It just makes sense the goalies now are bigger and even the minimum size needed to keep the goalie safe has just naturally increased. To get the same effect as reducing the size of a goalies equipment you'd only need to increase the nets slightly, probably a couple inches taller and maybe an inch on either side. I dont see any reasonable arguement against increasing the size, it's one based entirely on tradition.
You increase the size of the nets, the whole goaltending position changes. Every angle changes, every spot on the ice changes and the size of goalies will change. Want to see a goalie under 6' make the NHL if the net changes? Good luck. Not to mention the trickle down affect. Every league in every location would need to switch its nets. IIHF would have to get on board and force every league under it to change because the NHL is changing. A change this big can only happen if everyone else does it.

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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
This is what I think, the NHL allowed the goalie to become bigger with the net remaining the same size. Who does that?

If defensive systems are clogging up the slot, make the net bigger to allow for goals outside of the slot so that defence has to go back to being worried about those players.

Chest protectors could be smaller too, and I've heard people from Brian's say the same thing. They only make them that big because they're allowed to.
The NHL allowed the goalie to become bigger then they cut the goalie down. Everyone here still thinks that goalies are still wearing the same size equipment from 2003 when their not.

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Originally Posted by octopi View Post
It definitely needs to get smaller and I don't want to hear goalies whining about shooters and their fancy, curvy sticks.Fans want to see more exciting plays resulting in goals. Goalies wore much smaller protection 20-30 years ago and with today's technology, I can't see the injury risk changing if some of the sizes are scaled down to more humanesque proportions.Also, it'll be a level playing field for everyone, so skill matters and your catching mitt won't double as a baby cradle anymore.
Once again 2013 goalie equipment is smaller then the equipment from 2003. I really don't know how much more can be cut without making the goalie position irrelevant. If your suggesting we go back to 80's equipment call up Steve McKichan. Published an article after the lockout that outlined why going back to the 80's level of equipment and scoring is out of the question.

Goaltending has changed so much that the equipment that is worn is only a minor reason as to why we have gotten better at our jobs. You can't see the injury risk because you have never played goalie. People act like our equipment is made of Kevlar, our masks are but not the rest of our equipment. We still feel everything or else we wouldn't be able to tell what direction the puck is taking.

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02-20-2013, 11:02 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
I don't mind trimming down the chest protector a bit along with the pants. As for thigh rises if someone wants to wear massive thigh rises then let them, it will only harm them. Here's something from one of the best goalie equipment companies out there, Vaughn:
I've tested the latest Vaughn Velocity's. I like them. But I'm not talking about "massive" thigh rises. I'm talking about anything more than +1 inch. There is just no reason to need a thigh rise for protection when you have both pants that come down to the knee and knee straps that tuck into the front of the pants. The thigh rise, as well as the inner thigh blocks inside goalie pants, serve the sole purpose of closing up the five hole. Goalies are now able to completely shut down the five hole despite the fact that their actual knees and thighs are nowhere near each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Once again 2013 goalie equipment is smaller then the equipment from 2003. I really don't know how much more can be cut without making the goalie position irrelevant.
That is one heck of a strawman.

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02-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #73
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by HugoSimon View Post
Limit the positioning of defense. Its truly absurd when certain teams basically got a second goalie on top of the net. I think this is the real issue, if the goalie doesnt have to worry about half the net 99 percent of the time, what difference does a bit of pads make.
If shots from the wings go in a greater percentage of the time, either due to smaller goalie equipment or larger nets, defensemen are going to be compelled to defend those areas. That would help unclogged the middle a bit.

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02-20-2013, 11:10 AM
  #74
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It's not the size of the equipment, it's how you use it!

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02-20-2013, 11:28 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I've tested the latest Vaughn Velocity's. I like them. But I'm not talking about "massive" thigh rises. I'm talking about anything more than +1 inch. There is just no reason to need a thigh rise for protection when you have both pants that come down to the knee and knee straps that tuck into the front of the pants. The thigh rise, as well as the inner thigh blocks inside goalie pants, serve the sole purpose of closing up the five hole. Goalies are now able to completely shut down the five hole despite the fact that their actual knees and thighs are nowhere near each other.



That is one heck of a strawman.
I don't see the problem with +2 inches. The bigger the thigh rise gets the more it becomes a disadvantage. Most goalies I know use +1 very few use +2. Partly due to the bigger it gets the harder it is for goalies to skate especially the younger ones. I only use +2 because my legs are the longest part of my body so I need the extra 2 inches to close off the five hole.

There's balance with equipment and goalies young and old are finding that balance. NHL goalies are perfecting that balance. There's still a five-hole, its just being more effectively shut down which is the point of the butterfly. You'll never see anyone with +3's and +2's only work if the goalie has long legs. Give a goalie with short legs +2 and they aren't moving anywhere fast whether it be side to side or up and down.

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