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Is Crosby overrated?

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Old
02-19-2013, 08:37 PM
  #251
revolverjgw
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
What is there to say... Crosby boosters get up on their high horses over small sample sizes because that's all they've ever had. The facts are thus... Crosby still has to win the Art Ross for this year for it to be discussed as anything substantive... and even then that would only (loosely) put him into a tie with Malkin in career value.

To put it into perspective... IF Crosby wins the scoring title or Hart this year... it will have been seven years since the last one... it's a joke if anyone would try to claim he was anything more than the 2nd best player on the Penguins over that time.
Trophy counting at its worst

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02-20-2013, 02:05 AM
  #252
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in a word. No.

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02-20-2013, 02:25 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Trophy counting at its worst
Yes I agree we should continue to use magical projections and what-ifs instead... the same arguments that see people try to put Lemieux ahead of Gretzky... at the end of the day what you actually did matters more... more than what you maybe could have... once Crosby out-performs all other players in the world both on the scoresheet and in the trophy case we can say he is the best at this time (and note I do not say if and do not discount the possibility).

But right now he is stuck in the middle of a pack whose names change every year... there is no clear-cut best and to say he is is to overrate him... again even on his own team he is contested by his sometimes linemate.

I also like we use injuries as excuse for him but yet when healthy in 2009 he was again outshadowed by his teammate both in regular season and playoffs and by Ovechkin in regular season... and then in 2010 by H. Sedin. If he is the best of today he should have had no problem being a clear cut ahead of such inferior players...

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02-20-2013, 09:27 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Yes I agree we should continue to use magical projections and what-ifs instead... the same arguments that see people try to put Lemieux ahead of Gretzky... at the end of the day what you actually did matters more... more than what you maybe could have... once Crosby out-performs all other players in the world both on the scoresheet and in the trophy case we can say he is the best at this time (and note I do not say if and do not discount the possibility).
I'm not using what-ifs in comparing him to Malkin. He has more 100 point seasons, more points, more playoff points, better all-around player, far better PPG in the regular season and playoffs, plays more ice time because he's more versatile and consistent... who's using what-ifs?

Trophy counting is too binary and would have you believe that Malkin is the better playoff player because he's the one with the shiny trophy, but Crosby regularly outplays him, and just barely finished under Malkin the ONE time he didn't outplay him, and has much better playoff career numbers. He's always the guy opposing teams focus on shutting down. They've both played the same amount of games in the playoffs so there's no what-if here. Crosby is better than Malkin. You can go on the Pens board and ask the people that know best and are the least biased if you don't believe me. They're not going to be counting Art Rosses or using the Conn Smythe as the be-all and end-all.

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02-20-2013, 12:59 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Yes I agree we should continue to use magical projections and what-ifs instead... the same arguments that see people try to put Lemieux ahead of Gretzky... at the end of the day what you actually did matters more... more than what you maybe could have... once Crosby out-performs all other players in the world both on the scoresheet and in the trophy case we can say he is the best at this time (and note I do not say if and do not discount the possibility).

But right now he is stuck in the middle of a pack whose names change every year... there is no clear-cut best and to say he is is to overrate him... again even on his own team he is contested by his sometimes linemate.

I also like we use injuries as excuse for him but yet when healthy in 2009 he was again outshadowed by his teammate both in regular season and playoffs and by Ovechkin in regular season... and then in 2010 by H. Sedin. If he is the best of today he should have had no problem being a clear cut ahead of such inferior players...
So a 21 yeard old Crosby finishes THIRD in scoring and your bashing him? At 22 he was only SECOND man he is overated. After that it was all Crosby.

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02-20-2013, 05:13 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
So a 21 yeard old Crosby finishes THIRD in scoring and your bashing him? At 22 he was only SECOND man he is overated. After that it was all Crosby.
I think his point was more to the fact that Crosby is basically the universally accepted top player in the league by most on these boards, but he's yet to really establish himself further ahead of his peers. Up until 3 years ago, I think Ovechkin was leading the heads up match and although Ovy has struggled for awhile, Crosby has barely played.

Year to year there are a number of players capable of outproducing Sid. In order to be the universally accepted top player in the game, you have to do something that warrants it. He's a great player, probably the best in the game, but I don't think he's had the level of dominance that posters seem to credit him with.

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02-20-2013, 05:58 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I'm not using what-ifs in comparing him to Malkin. He has more 100 point seasons, more points, more playoff points, better all-around player, far better PPG in the regular season and playoffs, plays more ice time because he's more versatile and consistent... who's using what-ifs?

Trophy counting is too binary and would have you believe that Malkin is the better playoff player because he's the one with the shiny trophy, but Crosby regularly outplays him, and just barely finished under Malkin the ONE time he didn't outplay him, and has much better playoff career numbers. He's always the guy opposing teams focus on shutting down. They've both played the same amount of games in the playoffs so there's no what-if here. Crosby is better than Malkin. You can go on the Pens board and ask the people that know best and are the least biased if you don't believe me. They're not going to be counting Art Rosses or using the Conn Smythe as the be-all and end-all.
Typically, I'd fight this battle. And as a fairly thoughtful (I think) hockey fan, I just wanted to post as a confirmation that you aren't crazy. In fact, you're very much correct.

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02-20-2013, 06:20 PM
  #258
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I am impressed right now with Crosby. I'll admit I was a little miffed during the lockout, but who wasn't? The point is, he has done something I wasn't sure he was going to do again and that is become the best player in the NHL. I am sure it was nice for Thomas Vanek to be at the top of the scoring race for the first few games of the season but Crosby is going to start pulling away from him and I think this is a season (even shortened) that can paint a clear picture as to how far Crosby is ahead of the rest of the league. Keep in mind, it probably isn't going to be THAT far because of Malkin and Stamkos and such but I think by the end of the year (maybe even with another Cup) even the biggest Flyer fan is going to have to admit Crosby is notably better than the next best player.

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02-20-2013, 11:50 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I think his point was more to the fact that Crosby is basically the universally accepted top player in the league by most on these boards, but he's yet to really establish himself further ahead of his peers. Up until 3 years ago, I think Ovechkin was leading the heads up match and although Ovy has struggled for awhile, Crosby has barely played.

Year to year there are a number of players capable of outproducing Sid. In order to be the universally accepted top player in the game, you have to do something that warrants it. He's a great player, probably the best in the game, but I don't think he's had the level of dominance that posters seem to credit him with.
The 2 previous seasons he has led the NHL in ppg. This season he is tied for the league lead in scoring. Only injuries have stopped sid from dominating. Lets take a look at how consistent Crosby has been.

2006-07. 1st in points, 2nd in assists. Sweeps the Hart-Ross-Lindsay
2007-08. Was 1st in points and 1st in assists half way through the season. High ankle sprain forces him to miss 28 games. Comes back and leads the postseason in scoring.
2008-09. 3rd in points, 2nd in assists
2009-10. 1st in goals, 2nd in points
2010-2011. Was leading NHL in goals and points before concussion. 1st in ppg and gpg
2011-2012. 37 points in 22 games. 1st in ppg
2012-2013. Currently tied for 1st in points and 1st in assists....

Thats 7 straight seasons at a top 3 scoring pace every year. No other player has come close to that.


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02-21-2013, 12:18 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
2007-08. Was 1st in points and 1st in assists half way through the season. High ankle sprain forces him to miss 28 games. Comes back and leads the postseason in scoring.
Technically, Henrik Zetterberg led in 2008 and not Sidney Crosby.

13 goals>6 goals.

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02-21-2013, 12:24 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Technically, Henrik Zetterberg led in 2008 and not Sidney Crosby.

13 goals>6 goals.
In the playoffs there is no tiebreaker. Since there is no Art Ross trophy.

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02-21-2013, 01:45 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
In the playoffs there is no tiebreaker. Since there is no Art Ross trophy.
I'd take the guy with 13 goals every time.

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02-21-2013, 01:51 AM
  #263
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He's probably 80% of the player he was before the concussion problems, and he's probably still the best player in the league, so no, he's not over-rated, he's just not quite the same as he was a few years ago. I'd still take him on my time in a ****ing micro-second.

He'll probably go down in history named with the likes of Yzerman, Sakic, Trottier, Neely, etc. Not one of the very best, like Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, but just a notch down with those I previously mentioned. That's nothing to scoff at in the least. Yzerman is my favorite player of all-time, and I'm not and never have been a Red Wings fan. But seeing him win was great in and of itself. Kind of the same with Crosby; I respect his heart, passion and talent.


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02-21-2013, 03:32 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by KarmaPolice View Post

He'll probably go down in history named with the likes of Yzerman, Sakic, Trottier, Neely,
Neely doesn't belong in that group. If Crosby follows a fairly normal career path from now and retires at a typical age, then he will probably be in that group mentioned above (and above Neely).

His first few years are about comparable to Yzerman's first few years, and better than Joe Sakic's. However both Yzerman and Sakic had great longevity, n Yzerman lost a step offensively due to injuries (and age possibly) he was still able to be a PPG player putting up Selke or near Selke level defense. Sakic's peak season comes when he's 31-32 years old, and he puts up a 100 point season at 36-37 years old (along with a bunch of seasons as top-scoring center from 2000-lockout).

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02-22-2013, 01:45 AM
  #265
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Neely doesn't belong in that group. If Crosby follows a fairly normal career path from now and retires at a typical age, then he will probably be in that group mentioned above (and above Neely).

His first few years are about comparable to Yzerman's first few years, and better than Joe Sakic's. However both Yzerman and Sakic had great longevity, n Yzerman lost a step offensively due to injuries (and age possibly) he was still able to be a PPG player putting up Selke or near Selke level defense. Sakic's peak season comes when he's 31-32 years old, and he puts up a 100 point season at 36-37 years old (along with a bunch of seasons as top-scoring center from 2000-lockout).
Crosby's first 7 seasons far, far surpass those of Yzerman's. Only 5 players have ever at any point in their career had a career PPG average higher than Crosby's after having at least the same amount of seasons played. If you use adjusted stats, there are only 2.

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02-22-2013, 02:23 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Crosby's first 7 seasons far, far surpass those of Yzerman's. Only 5 players have ever at any point in their career had a career PPG average higher than Crosby's after having at least the same amount of seasons played. If you use adjusted stats, there are only 2.
Heh, 1.40PPG to 1.35PPG doesn't even come remotely close to justifying the "far, far surpass" comment.
Especially considering Crosby had played a whopping 80 less games than Yzerman by the end of their 7th seasons.

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02-22-2013, 02:27 AM
  #267
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Heh, 1.40PPG to 1.35PPG doesn't even come remotely close to justifying the "far, far surpass" comment.
Especially considering Crosby had played a whopping 80 less games than Yzerman by the end of their 7th seasons.
Considering that league scoring in Yzerman's first 7 years was 1.5 times that of the current NHL, I'd say it does.

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02-22-2013, 02:38 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Considering that league scoring in Yzerman's first 7 years was 1.5 times that of the current NHL, I'd say it does.
It's still not far, far off and Yzerman's '89 season is STILL higher, even adjusted, than any season Sid has had.
And of course, there's still the whole 80 games less thing.

I take no issue with anyone saying that Sid is ahead of Stevie after 7 seasons but you can take this "far, far surpass" crap and stick it where the sun don't shine, so to speak.

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02-22-2013, 05:43 AM
  #269
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The 2 previous seasons he has led the NHL in ppg. This season he is tied for the league lead in scoring. Only injuries have stopped sid from dominating. Lets take a look at how consistent Crosby has been.

2006-07. 1st in points, 2nd in assists. Sweeps the Hart-Ross-Lindsay
2007-08. Was 1st in points and 1st in assists half way through the season. High ankle sprain forces him to miss 28 games. Comes back and leads the postseason in scoring.
2008-09. 3rd in points, 2nd in assists
2009-10. 1st in goals, 2nd in points
2010-2011. Was leading NHL in goals and points before concussion. 1st in ppg and gpg
2011-2012. 37 points in 22 games. 1st in ppg
2012-2013. Currently tied for 1st in points and 1st in assists....

Thats 7 straight seasons at a top 3 scoring pace every year. No other player has come close to that.
I'm not doubting his skill or his ability to be the dominant force everyone gives him credit for, however, like every other player in history, you don't get rewarded for not playing. When your season is cut in 1/2 having the best ppg average isn't a particularly spectacular achievement.

As far as being near the top every year he is healthy, sure, but he hasn't separated himself from guys like Malkin to any significant degree.

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04-01-2013, 08:31 AM
  #270
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That freak accident last week might have cost Crosby an Art Ross and a Hart this season. Has there been another player with so much potential but just not much on the his resume to show for it? Lindros comes to mind. Is he going to be remembered as "that guy with the insane PPG"?

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04-01-2013, 09:15 AM
  #271
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That freak accident last week might have cost Crosby an Art Ross and a Hart this season. Has there been another player with so much potential but just not much on the his resume to show for it? Lindros comes to mind. Is he going to be remembered as "that guy with the insane PPG"?
I hope he does not go down as "that guy with the insane PPG" but there definitely is a risk. The thing is that Anti-Crosby camp can and will continue to count the trophies. Which usually gives a good idea about players worth, but in Crosbys case it is more than misleading.

I never liked Crosby but now i just plain feel bad for him.

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04-01-2013, 11:26 AM
  #272
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That freak accident last week might have cost Crosby an Art Ross and a Hart this season. Has there been another player with so much potential but just not much on the his resume to show for it? Lindros comes to mind. Is he going to be remembered as "that guy with the insane PPG"?
He's still in his peak years. It should be the next 3-4 seasons that really define his peak.

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04-01-2013, 12:16 PM
  #273
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He's still in his peak years. It should be the next 3-4 seasons that really define his peak.
The last 3 couting this year should have been to.

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04-01-2013, 03:20 PM
  #274
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That freak accident last week might have cost Crosby an Art Ross and a Hart this season. Has there been another player with so much potential but just not much on the his resume to show for it? Lindros comes to mind. Is he going to be remembered as "that guy with the insane PPG"?
It is a shame that happened. I hope he's only out for a game or two or three. But a broken jaw is pretty intense. Just a freak accident, really. Could happen to anyone but for whatever reason Crosby has been unable to avoid these injuries. Some of the other ones I could say he was reckless and such but this one was just a really bad shot from the blue line. What was the Pens defenseman thinking? That wasn't even close to the net.

Anyway, I hate to say he is having a Lindrosesque type of career because that is what it is turning out to be. He gets overrated when people try and lump him with Mario or Wayne. That's what I don't like because right now he has a similar career curve to Lindros than those two. The game is better when he's healthy, like it or not. He just gets hurt as soon as it looks like he is breaking away from the pack for good. Lemieux did things similar to that but the difference being is that when Lemieux missed 25-33% of the season he still won the Art Ross trophy.

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04-01-2013, 03:27 PM
  #275
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It is a shame that happened. I hope he's only out for a game or two or three. But a broken jaw is pretty intense. Just a freak accident, really. Could happen to anyone but for whatever reason Crosby has been unable to avoid these injuries. Some of the other ones I could say he was reckless and such but this one was just a really bad shot from the blue line. What was the Pens defenseman thinking? That wasn't even close to the net.

Anyway, I hate to say he is having a Lindrosesque type of career because that is what it is turning out to be. He gets overrated when people try and lump him with Mario or Wayne. That's what I don't like because right now he has a similar career curve to Lindros than those two. The game is better when he's healthy, like it or not. He just gets hurt as soon as it looks like he is breaking away from the pack for good. Lemieux did things similar to that but the difference being is that when Lemieux missed 25-33% of the season he still won the Art Ross trophy.
Seriously? You think a broken jaw makes his career more Lindrosesque?

I don't know how that works, but this was a random occurrence that at the end of the day won't keep him out longer than 12 games, not a huge percentage from a career perspective.

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