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Who are the top 5 U.S.A. born players of all time?

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02-19-2013, 08:00 PM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So how then do you reconcile Bobby Hull vs. Bobby Orr? Would Orr be considered part of the "big four" if Hull had stayed in the NHL, or even moreso if thee had been no WHA and the league were tougher? What happens to Orr's numbers in that case? Maybe people start considering him "The best defenseman since Doug Harvey" and things like that.
I'm referring more to players like Suchy/Savard ect.. for the 70's

As for Luongo vs. Brimsek...

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Luongo was/is/has been one of the top two goalies in the league only a couple of times in his career, and he has had a long career. Brimsek received either first-team or second-team honors every season, except his final year when the Bruins missed the playoffs. This is like trying to argue that Ed Belfour was better than Dominik Hasek in the 90s.
This is why i didn't participate in the goalie part of the project, that and not enough time, it's really hard to separate teams from players and as for Lou not dominating his era, the sticky aside, most people agree that the technical aspect of goaltending really changed after the 80's and was led by the ones coming from Quebec.

basically 5 of the 6 starting goalies in the 50's 06 era were included in the top 40, maybe it was a golden era for goalies and dmen and looking forward we will no doubt see many centers and wingers too but i'm thinking people are really looking to much at how they did against their peers and forgetting it's easier in a 6 team league than a 30 team one.

Even more so the 70's when there was a bigger disparity between the best teams and weaker ones and the level of dominance was greater, it can also be said that we should expect that as well because it would have been easier than say in the post lockout era where the competition level isn't as great from best to worst.

At the very least the 'best' Canadians over time have a distinct advantage before the full integration of the NHL than do post 90's Canadians, we saw that quite strongly with Nieds and I suspect that trend will continue with guys like Thorton. Iggy and company

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02-19-2013, 08:24 PM
  #102
Marotte Marauder
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I can't imagine any substantive argument (i.e. one that's not loaded in speculation and fluff) for having Baker ahead of Chelios.

Here, try this on. Baker was in the first group (of nine) inducted into The Hockey Hall of Fame and the only American.

But you're right, he's no Chelios, Langway, Modano or LaFontaine.

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02-19-2013, 08:31 PM
  #103
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cheelios,hull,leetch,modano,lafontaine

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02-19-2013, 08:55 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Here, try this on. Baker was in the first group (of nine) inducted into The Hockey Hall of Fame and the only American.

But you're right, he's no Chelios, Langway, Modano or LaFontaine.
Once again, I said substantive argument, not fluff. By that measure I suppose Frank McGee outranks Wayne Gretzky?

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02-19-2013, 09:53 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Chelios
Brimsek
Modano
Leetch
Langway/Lafontaine

Yeah Langway was born in Taiwan but was raised American. Kind of the same thing with Dany Heatley, born in Germany raised in Canada. Or Owen Nolan, etc. These guys are not considered to be from the countries they were born if they were raised here.

As for Hull, a little different story. Born in Canada, raised for a large part in Canada. Got cut by Canada and played for the USA because they would take him. Sorry, not an American by any means or else he's probably #2-3 here.
err, not an American by any means? Really? Or do you mean other than any means which actually matter? He holds American citizenship and chose to play internationally for USA. Not much more to it.
I mean players like Hull, Deadmarsh, and Pominville (not to mention players who switched allegiances mid-career like Nedved, P.Stastny, Trottier, T.Esposito) always make for some fun trivia and discussion, but you can't just deny their nationality or their personal decisions.

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02-20-2013, 05:55 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Once again, I said substantive argument, not fluff. By that measure I suppose Frank McGee outranks Wayne Gretzky?
...and your argument is because you didn't see them play, it couldn't be so?

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02-20-2013, 08:34 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
...and your argument is because you didn't see them play, it couldn't be so?
I am the biggest proponent of past era players, in fact so much so that I get disgusted when younger people especially on HF, look at stats and make flash/quick judgements. However, Baker does truly fall into one of those undefinable categories. He is one of the players we can't give a number to. We hear what an incredible athlete he was but that was because he was a star in football, hockey and apparently polo (plus a few others) and one of the most popular sports stars of his time. His hockey career consists of college play and we don't even have any data from that but only eyewitness accounts. He never played pro puck, how can anyone truly gauge Baker but from accounts from his fellow college mates albeit one of them being F.S. Fitzgerald,he was the greatest. I am sure by all accounts he was the greatest American hockey player but there is absolutely zero data to tag onto his name, it is hard for me to give him a number on this list. You add in his heroic death in WW1 and you have fame, glory and embellishment beyond any 2010 judgement I or any of us can give.

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02-20-2013, 08:37 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
...and your argument is because you didn't see them play, it couldn't be so?

But I will ask, how can you so obviously give Baker such high esteem in 1 sentence. How exactly have you come to this judgement and so sure we are wrong?

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02-20-2013, 08:43 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
I am the biggest proponent of past era players, in fact so much so that I get disgusted when younger people especially on HF, look at stats and make flash/quick judgements. However, Baker does truly fall into one of those undefinable categories. He is one of the players we can't give a number to. We hear what an incredible athlete he was but that was because he was a star in football, hockey and apparently polo (plus a few others) and one of the most popular sports stars of his time. His hockey career consists of college play and we don't even have any data from that but only eyewitness accounts. He never played pro puck, how can anyone truly gauge Baker but from accounts from his fellow college mates albeit one of them being F.S. Fitzgerald,he was the greatest. I am sure by all accounts he was the greatest American hockey player but there is absolutely zero data to tag onto his name, it is hard for me to give him a number on this list. You add in his heroic death in WW1 and you have fame, glory and embellishment beyond any 2010 judgement I or any of us can give.
The data that I need, others may need more or different data, is that the International Hockey Hall of Fame founders chose to include him in the first 9. They had hundreds of players to choose from and included Hobart Baker.

Enough for me, YMMV.

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02-20-2013, 08:59 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
The data that I need, others may need more or different data, is that the International Hockey Hall of Fame founders chose to include him in the first 9. They had hundreds of players to choose from and included Hobart Baker.

Enough for me, YMMV.
And you don't think his incredible popularity among the Ivy League crowd during the 19-teens contributed to the stories about him? And the fact he was killed in WW1 to add more to the "greatest ever" talk? He was another Jim Thorpe when I am sure everyone was searching for the next Jim Thorpe. While I am not one to claim stats make the player, in this case we don't have that just fans or shall I say it correctly fanatics raving about him. That's hard for me to put in a nutshell and claim greatest ever. I guess you can.

So, using your gauge Bobby Orr is the greatest and yes over Wayne. Because anyone that saw both play generally chooses Orr over Gretz.

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02-20-2013, 09:07 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
And you don't think his incredible popularity among the Ivy League crowd during the 19-teens contributed to the stories about him? And the fact he was killed in WW1 to add more to the "greatest ever" talk? He was another Jim Thorpe when I am sure everyone was searching for the next Jim Thorpe. While I am not one to claim stats make the player, in this case we don't have that just fans or shall I say it correctly fanatics raving about him. That's hard for me to put in a nutshell and claim greatest ever. I guess you can.

So, using your gauge Bobby Orr is the greatest and yes over Wayne. Because anyone that saw both play generally chooses Orr over Gretz.
I think it would be very presumptuous to think we have any where near enough information to say the Hall founders were wrong. That is my point.

Orr over Wayne? I could be an argument either way.

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02-20-2013, 09:09 AM
  #112
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Modano
Chelios
Leetch
Lafontaine
Hull
Richter/Beizer

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02-20-2013, 09:12 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I think it would be very presumptuous to think we have any where near enough information to say the Hall founders were wrong. That is my point.

Orr over Wayne? I could be an argument either way.
And I think it is very presumptuous to use the raves of the Ivy League elite during the 19-teens as my sole reason to crown Baker the greatest. Especially, since Baker never played pro-hockey which means he never played against the best, he played against other amateur players and club hockey occasionally, in the mid-atlantic region.

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02-20-2013, 09:19 AM
  #114
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1. Chelios

2. Leetch
3. Modano
4. Langway

5. Brimsek

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02-20-2013, 09:21 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
And I think it is very presumptuous to use the raves of the Ivy League elite during the 19-teens as my sole reason to crown Baker the greatest. Especially, since Baker never played pro-hockey which means he never played against the best, he played against other amateur players and club hockey occasionally, in the mid-atlantic region.
I don't think the Ivy Leaguers were the actual decision makers.

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02-20-2013, 09:28 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I don't think the Ivy Leaguers were the actual decision makers.
And where do you think the tales of Hobey Baker comes from?

Because I am sure hockey was a popular sport in New Jersey in 1910. Seriously, I give past players tons of credit and more so than the average fan but Baker, there is nothing on him but stories. Like I said, I am sure he was that great but please, he probably only played about 50 games including his amateur and college days. He never once laced them up against the best players of his time. He is more myth than fact and that includes his election into the HoF.

Let's see, a Canadian game trying to work it's way in the US chooses the incredibly popular, and WW1 hero to go into the Hall of Fame. Doesn't seem odd to me at all.....

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02-20-2013, 09:32 AM
  #117
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Richter/Beizer
Richter was not as good as Beezer.

Richter also was not as good a Barrasso.

And you've left out Brimsek.

Depending on what you think of Thomas, that pushes Richter to fifth among American goalies alone.

Jim Carey won a Vezina and was nominated in twice consecutive years during Richter's prime. He was "3rd" team in 1995 and then 1st team in 1996. Carey also was second to Forsberg for the Calder in 1995 - ahead of Paul Kariya. Richter was nominated for the Vezina in 1991, but was only named on five ballots; Belfour was picked #1 by 19 GMs of 21 teams, Roy and Richter each one. Richter was only named on five Vezina ballots. Belfour took 65 of 66 first-place AS vote, while Richter finished fifth and was named on 11 ballots.

And then there's Vezina winner Miller, Smythe winner Quick, as well as Howard, Schneider, and Anderson with incomplete careers.

Right now I'd place Richter 5th among American goalies (rather than overall). I wouldn't be shocked to see him drop five or more spots by 2025.

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02-20-2013, 09:42 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Richter was not as good as Beezer.

Richter also was not as good a Barrasso.

And you've left out Brimsek.

Depending on what you think of Thomas, that pushes Richter to fifth among American goalies alone.

Jim Carey won a Vezina and was nominated in twice consecutive years during Richter's prime. He was "3rd" team in 1995 and then 1st team in 1996. Carey also was second to Forsberg for the Calder in 1995 - ahead of Paul Kariya. Richter was nominated for the Vezina in 1991, but was only named on five ballots; Belfour was picked #1 by 19 GMs of 21 teams, Roy and Richter each one. Richter was only named on five Vezina ballots. Belfour took 65 of 66 first-place AS vote, while Richter finished fifth and was named on 11 ballots.

And then there's Vezina winner Miller, Smythe winner Quick, as well as Howard, Schneider, and Anderson with incomplete careers.

Right now I'd place Richter 5th among American goalies (rather than overall). I wouldn't be shocked to see him drop five or more spots by 2025.
Are you trying to say Jim Carey was better than Richter based on a very bad year of Vezina candidate goalies in 1996? Because if you look at the data on goalies in 1996, I still don't understand how the fluke known as Jim Carey won that year. He lead in one single category and that was shutouts, there were at least 3 goalies with better overall stats that year.

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02-20-2013, 09:56 AM
  #119
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If i played hockey i would easily be a defensman, i mean how can it be that US best five are basically all defenders just for the exception of Modano. I think this board has in some way got dillusional by the fact that it's a lot easier to become a elite defensman, i mean for Mike Modano to be equal to let's say Chelios, must he win art ross and be top 5 multiple times? Isn't that to much to ask, i think Modano is equal to Chelios and thanks to the more competative position he is playing he hasen't had the career of Chelios. I mean let's look at todays player, is Weber really that much better than Zetterberg, Toews etc? By HFboards standard Weber is probably twice as good as Toews etc.

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02-20-2013, 10:26 AM
  #120
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If i played hockey i would easily be a defensman, i mean how can it be that US best five are basically all defenders just for the exception of Modano. I think this board has in some way got dillusional by the fact that it's a lot easier to become a elite defensman, i mean for Mike Modano to be equal to let's say Chelios, must he win art ross and be top 5 multiple times? Isn't that to much to ask, i think Modano is equal to Chelios and thanks to the more competative position he is playing he hasen't had the career of Chelios. I mean let's look at todays player, is Weber really that much better than Zetterberg, Toews etc? By HFboards standard Weber is probably twice as good as Toews etc.
I'm not going to go through every reason why Chelios should rank higher than Modano on an all-time list, since that would take too long. But just to get past this "forwards are disadvantaged compared to defensemen" nonsense:

Chris Chelios Hart trophy finishes: 5th, 7th, 10th

Mike Modano Hart trophy finishes: 7th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 20th

And that's for an award for which all players are eligible, but which is pretty clearly biased in favor of forwards, and for which several of Chelios' best seasons came in a time period where there were less voters and less voting positions so it was much harder to get a placement (had the same voting scheme been in place during Chelios' prime as was when Modano was getting those 10th-20th place finishes, he almost certainly would have had several more at a similar level to Modano's).

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02-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
And where do you think the tales of Hobey Baker comes from?

Because I am sure hockey was a popular sport in New Jersey in 1910. Seriously, I give past players tons of credit and more so than the average fan but Baker, there is nothing on him but stories. Like I said, I am sure he was that great but please, he probably only played about 50 games including his amateur and college days. He never once laced them up against the best players of his time. He is more myth than fact and that includes his election into the HoF.

Let's see, a Canadian game trying to work it's way in the US chooses the incredibly popular, and WW1 hero to go into the Hall of Fame. Doesn't seem odd to me at all.....
You mean that league where in 1943 (time of the selection) 4 of the 6 teams were already US based with hockey played across the Northern 3rd of the country?

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02-20-2013, 11:19 AM
  #122
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You mean that league where in 1943 (time of the selection) 4 of the 6 teams were already US based with hockey played across the Northern 3rd of the country?

EXACTLY, you got the gist of what I was saying. Hmmmm, let's elect Hobey Baker to the HoF, we heard the stories, never saw him play but think of the promotion of the game if we put in a war hero and SUPER popular American sport's star in our hockey hall of fame. Baker had national appeal not just Chicago, Boston, New York City and Detroit appeal. Use your nogging bro.

It was already said, you have no substantive argument only fluff, hearsay and revelry from the 1910's .

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02-20-2013, 12:03 PM
  #123
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EXACTLY, you got the gist of what I was saying. Hmmmm, let's elect Hobey Baker to the HoF, we heard the stories, never saw him play but think of the promotion of the game if we put in a war hero and SUPER popular American sport's star in our hockey hall of fame. Baker had national appeal not just Chicago, Boston, New York City and Detroit appeal. Use your nogging bro.

It was already said, you have no substantive argument only fluff, hearsay and revelry from the 1910's .
My post was sarcastic actually. The O6 was already popular in the US it DID NOT need a trumped up guy (in your opinion).

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02-20-2013, 12:29 PM
  #124
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My post was sarcastic actually. The O6 was already popular in the US it DID NOT need a trumped up guy (in your opinion).
And you didn't read what I wrote as I clearly addressed it. So,basically this is over, you don't read other's peoples posts and you have zero argument. Thanks for the chat.

As I started out saying, Baker belongs in a group by himself due to lack of any true knowledge and facts. By all accounts he was great but that's not enough to formulate a good, true opinion on the guy.

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02-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #125
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Does Bryan Trottier count? He played for the US in Canada Cup

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