Here's the thing - JVR played with Giroux and he couldn't get the job done with one of the most talented centermen in the game. JVR needed the trade to light a fire under his backside and get him going. He never would have got it going here. I'm glad he's doing well in Toronto, but let's not kid our selves into believing he was ever going to put it together here. He needed that trade to wake him up or he would have been a case of "what could have been."
Schenn's issue was never a case of if he could put it together. His was a case of Ron Wilson was a complete d-bag who had a serious hatred for him. Schenn needed to get out of Toronto. I'l say this right now - Schenn will be the Brad McCrimmon of this team for a long, long time. Great trade anyway you look at it.
I think that's because Jagr was on the other side, had it been Hartnell-Giroux-Jvr it would have been a different story. Why didn't Giroux and Briere work? They're too similar, so they were playing the same role on that line. Jvr had no role on the line last year because despite how tall he is he isn't a power forward, and can't do what Hartnell does. He may be if he adds muscle, but I don't see it because he has a lean build. I said before he was traded, and before there was a lockout, that he'd have 30 goals this year next to Giroux. I still think that he would have had he been here and there been a full season.
The thing that really irks me about Laviolette that I wish he would tone down is his constant line shuffling when things aren't going well. I mean playing players like Schenn and Briere out of position is just counterproductive and he did it with Carter too. I know sometimes it was out of necessity and every year somebody has to take on the role of playing out of position (Briere and Carter swapped) but it's just frustrating when he does it randomly.
Eh, players get traded all the time for a variety of reasons and win Cups with other teams. I don't think that is an indictment of any organization.
Plus, it's just silly to say that Player X would never break out / fit into the regular line-up / win a Cup on the Flyers. There are too many scenarios where even a Cup win is a possibility. How can you (GKJ) make an absolute statement about a future variable? I couldn't in good conscience say that Shelley will never win a Cup with the Flyers, and his skill set is a pale shadow of Richards', Carter's or JvR's.
Or are you inferring that with Richards and Carter in the O&B, the FO would have no means or dedication to assemble a proper line-up that is Cup-worthy?
For one, a fair amount of us have been saying we didn't like the trade from day one. I am among these people.
Secondly, I didn't trade anyone, nor would I have made that trade. Additionally there's nothing shameful about admitting you lost a trade if you did. The jury is out yet, of course. I'm not ready to hang Homer for the trade. JVR may very well never put in a healthy season again (though I hope that isn't the case). If that happens Homer looks smart. But as of right now it's going how I thought it would.
Eh, players get traded all the time for a variety of reasons and win Cups with other teams. I don't think that is an indictment of any organization.
It's different when they're your core pieces. We're not talking about a 42-year old Mark Recchi winning a Cup in Boston. Or even 37-year old Mark Recchi with Carolina.
For one, a fair amount of us have been saying we didn't like the trade from day one. I am among these people.
Secondly, I didn't trade anyone, nor would I have made that trade. Additionally there's nothing shameful about admitting you lost a trade if you did. The jury is out yet, of course. I'm not ready to hang Homer for the trade. JVR may very well never put in a healthy season again (though I hope that isn't the case). If that happens Homer looks smart. But as of right now it's going how I thought it would.
I wasn't in favor of the trade, we traded the better player. That's never good.
Schenn has been good this season though, I'm not sad we have him, just not straight up for JVR.
It's different when they're your core pieces. We're not talking about a 42-year old Mark Recchi winning a Cup in Boston. Or even 37-year old Mark Recchi with Carolina.
But still, young core players get traded or switch teams through UFA as well (just the same as high ceiling prospects or aging vets). Some for cap reasons, some for re-building, some for other other reasons. Some of them win Cups, some of them don't. Timonen was a core player in Nashville (and Hartnell, Parent, and Upshall were in line to be the new core) and look how that turned out. Dan Boyle was a core player in TB. Zdeno Chara was a core player in Ottawa. J-Bo, though not playing to well as of late, was a core player in Florida. And so forth and so on. These trades or moves through UFA are not an indictment of the team they are leaving.
Had we drafted Hamilton ( hypothetically) instead of couturier we would have a very different look right now.
hartnell Giroux Voracek
Read Schenn JVR
Simmonds Briere Knuble <---- I could see Laughton filling in at this
Talbot Fedotenko Rinaldo Position if briere isn't doing well
Not confident that that look is better than what we have now. I would rather have Cooter than JVR -- and not sure Hamilton is THAT much better than Schenn that it would wipe out the defensive anchor value / Selke upside you get with Cooter. JVR doesn't play great defense (yet) and the Flyers historically haven't had a hard time scoring goals, which made JVR's offense (when it was there) overkill.
I would rather have the team now-- with a defensive forward and d-man than a big winger that plays soft and a d-man.
But still, young core players get traded or switch teams through UFA as well (just the same as high ceiling prospects or aging vets). Some for cap reasons, some for re-building, some for other other reasons. Some of them win Cups, some of them don't. Timonen was a core player in Nashville (and Hartnell, Parent, and Upshall were in line to be the new core) and look how that turned out. Dan Boyle was a core player in TB. Zdeno Chara was a core player in Ottawa. J-Bo, though not playing to well as of late, was a core player in Florida. And so forth and so on. These trades or moves through UFA are not an indictment of the team they are leaving.
The Flyers have higher standards than all of those teams you list.
Had we drafted Hamilton ( hypothetically) instead of couturier we would have a very different look right now.
hartnell Giroux Voracek
Read Schenn JVR
Simmonds Briere Knuble <---- I could see Laughton filling in at this
Talbot Fedotenko Rinaldo Position if briere isn't doing well
Coburn Gervais
Hamilton Timmonen
Mez Grossman
And...had Nashville not matched...we'd look like...
It's crazy how one move would have changed the entire outlook of the season. That's a cup potential roster.
Or one injury. If Pronger does have a freak career ending injury, there would be no need to off sheet or trade a boat load of resources. The Flyers could be patient and build slowly.
The JVR for Schenn trade had already happened by that point.
Which again brings up the point...why make that Schenn-JVR trade before talking to Nashville about a potential trade? JVR would bring value to that talk for sure.
The Flyers have higher standards than all of those teams you list.
Then what is the indictment of the organization?
EDIT: If anything I would say that the Flyers doing this with Richards and Carter, shows that it is not an indictment of the organization because it really is the only time they have ever done anything like this. If it was something like Columbus where no one wants to stay and all their stars get traded or walk, then ok, you can hold that against Columbus, but the Flyers dealing two players once in their franchise is not an indictment of the organization.
If the standards are unrealistically high it can be bad. Patience is a virtue...one the organization lacks entirely.
Either you or I are miscontstruing GKJ's argument. I thought he was saying that the teams I listed weren't on the same level as the Flyers so it looks worse on the Flyers if they do something like trade core players that go on to win cups as opposed to the Panthers, Lightning, etc. doing it.
Which again brings up the point...why make that Schenn-JVR trade before talking to Nashville about a potential trade? JVR would bring value to that talk for sure.
How do you know that they hadn't already talked for a while at this point without touching ground?
Nashville could have asked for the moon in return for Weber...
So Holmgren decides to pursue Suter but obviously he doesn't look too interested in coming here from the beginning and the next logical step is to consider a one-for-one swap around JVR which is still better than ending up without any help on defense. At that point the market had already dried up.
The Weber OS was just a big gamble with slim chances to actually succeed.
If the standards are unrealistically high it can be bad. Patience is a virtue...one the organization lacks entirely.
exactly. bring up a young defenseman. he struggles for a short stretch. send him back down. trade a 2nd round pick for a old veteran defenseman well past his prime.
but thats ok. draft picks are overrated right?
