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2014 Olympics and the NHL (UPD: NHL, NHLPA, IIHF, IOC meeting this week)

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02-20-2013, 10:37 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Second, EVERYBODY acknowledges the old WCH had problems, can you people please stop strawmanning it and referencing it as if a 2016 WCH will be the exact same as the 2004 event? It is seriously dishonest to do so.

The Euro leagues are a lot stronger than they were in 2004, it would not just be a "NHL show". Everybody can have a stake in it and the hosting can be spread around better especially if it's played in NHL pre-season (where the NHL is already sending NHL teams to open in Europe what's the difference in sending a international team??).
International competitions should not be organized by professional sports leagues. It doesn't matter whether it's just the NHL or not.

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02-20-2013, 10:47 AM
  #277
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First off, the WBC is gonna be a success next month, book it. It's been better each time since the first one, it's growing, it's great competition and a great festival of international baseball, nobody who tunes in is disappointed. The revenues go back to all the baseball and they don't have to deal with the vulgar and perfidious IOC (the corrupt ******** who snubbed baseball, and recently cut wrestling).

Second, EVERYBODY acknowledges the old WCH had problems, can you people please stop strawmanning it and referencing it as if a 2016 WCH will be the exact same as the 2004 event? It is seriously dishonest to do so.

The Euro leagues are a lot stronger than they were in 2004, it would not just be a "NHL show". Everybody can have a stake in it and the hosting can be spread around better especially if it's played in NHL pre-season (where the NHL is already sending NHL teams to open in Europe what's the difference in sending a international team??).
Wrestling hasn't been cut yet, it's only on the list so far and it's there simply because it's own doing. It's far more corrupt now than the IOC has ever been.

There's been no talk/rumors of it being hosted outside of North America so neither in media or by the fans here. Therefore it won't be better than in 2004 which was pretty much the lowpoint of the tournament.

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02-20-2013, 10:53 AM
  #278
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There's been no talk/rumors of it being hosted outside of North America so neither in media or by the fans here. Therefore it won't be better than in 2004 which was pretty much the lowpoint of the tournament.
There's been no talk at all! So how could there be.


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International competitions should not be organized by professional sports leagues. It doesn't matter whether it's just the NHL or not.
You're gonna tell me the IOC and IIHF are doing great jobs?? LOL

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02-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #279
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You're gonna tell me the IOC and IIHF are doing great jobs?? LOL
LOL And how exactly aren't they doing a great job? Because the NHL and Canada/USA aren't benefiting anything out of it? Well booeffinghoo!

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02-20-2013, 11:03 AM
  #280
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You're gonna tell me the IOC and IIHF are doing great jobs?? LOL
If you look at the Olympics, yes they are doing a great job, while the NHL is just disruptive.

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02-20-2013, 11:13 AM
  #281
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What I was getting at was we are apparently going to be seeing the talented and mighty hockey nation of Austrian playing in the Olympic tourney. In a World Cup / Canada Cup format, no way does a country like Austria get invited to particpated over Germany. Not in a 100 years. Why, becuase Austria doesn't produce the pro's that Germany does.
You just stated one of the exact reasons Europeans are against the World Cup format. If nations like Austria or Italy are capable of defeating Germany, then why should Germany automatically be in the tournament while Austria and Italy are automatically excluded? It's not a legit international competition in the eyes of Europeans as long as there is no qualification process.

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(where the NHL is already sending NHL teams to open in Europe what's the difference in sending a international team??).
It's the difference between NHL opening games played in Europe and Stanley Cup Finals played in Europe. 6-11 hours time difference between North American TV audiences and the game in Stockholm/Helsinki/Moscow that decides whether Team Canada is crowned World Champion or not.

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02-20-2013, 11:15 AM
  #282
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You're gonna tell me the IOC and IIHF are doing great jobs?? LOL
Tell me how the NHL did a better job in the Canada Cup/World Cup?

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02-20-2013, 11:20 AM
  #283
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You just stated one of the exact reasons Europeans are against the World Cup format. If nations like Austria or Italy are capable of defeating Germany, then why should Germany automatically be in the tournament while Austria and Italy are automatically excluded? It's not a legit international competition in the eyes of Europeans as long as there is no qualification process.



It's the difference between NHL opening games played in Europe and Stanley Cup Finals played in Europe. 6-11 hours time difference between North American TV audiences and the game in Stockholm/Helsinki/Moscow that decides whether Team Canada is crowned World Champion or not.
Exactly, teams should not invited at the whims of the NHL marketing department. It should be earned on the ice.

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02-20-2013, 11:48 AM
  #284
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If the purpose of a World Cup would be to make money for the NHL/NHLPA and they'd get that via tv money from Canada (because I don't see NBC or any other US network paying much money for it) then what kind of message does that send to the European federations? That the tournament is meant for North Americans/Canadian fans? What incentive would the European federations have of even participating in such a tournament? I can easily see Russia turning down an invitation and with them out, others would soon follow. Do you pay the Europeans for their participation? Would the tournament generate enough revenue to cover that? We'd be easily talking about 7 or even 8 figure sums here (let's be real, Russians are not doing anything for cheap these days) for each federation. No tv contract would cover that. Not to mention the complete lack of prestige if the only way to get countries to participate in it would by paying them.

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02-20-2013, 11:57 AM
  #285
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Tell me how the NHL did a better job in the Canada Cup/World Cup?
Keep going in circles buddy. As I've said before the mistakes of 2004 are widely acknowledged, assuming a 2016 tourney would repeat them is a dishonest strawman. Even the NHL is making better efforts to market to Europe with stuff like season openers there, why would they go back to the future and repeat an old mistake they know will just piss people off??

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
You just stated one of the exact reasons Europeans are against the World Cup format. If nations like Austria or Italy are capable of defeating Germany, then why should Germany automatically be in the tournament while Austria and Italy are automatically excluded? It's not a legit international competition in the eyes of Europeans as long as there is no qualification process.
Please, are we seriously gonna pretend Austria or Italy has a chance against teams full of NHL all stars just cuz they managed to scrape together more IIHF fairy points against other C-level teams? Germany has a team of NHLers and borderline NHLers of course they will put up a decent game against Canada/USA/Russia/Sweden while Austria will lose 12-0.


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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
It's the difference between NHL opening games played in Europe and Stanley Cup Finals played in Europe. 6-11 hours time difference between North American TV audiences and the game in Stockholm/Helsinki/Moscow that decides whether Team Canada is crowned World Champion or not.
So what it can be an evening game is Russia will air at Matinee times in Canada?

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02-20-2013, 12:05 PM
  #286
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If the purpose of a World Cup would be to make money for the NHL/NHLPA and they'd get that via tv money from Canada (because I don't see NBC or any other US network paying much money for it) then what kind of message does that send to the European federations? That the tournament is meant for North Americans/Canadian fans? What incentive would the European federations have of even participating in such a tournament? I can easily see Russia turning down an invitation and with them out, others would soon follow. Do you pay the Europeans for their participation? Would the tournament generate enough revenue to cover that? We'd be easily talking about 7 or even 8 figure sums here (let's be real, Russians are not doing anything for cheap these days) for each federation. No tv contract would cover that. Not to mention the complete lack of prestige if the only way to get countries to participate in it would by paying them.
Why wouldn't NBC or NBC sports cover it, what else are they gonna put on in September? Who says it's just meant for North Americans? Just the usual NHL bashing malcontents here making up strawmen.

Why is MONEY such a bad thing? 7 figures to a national federation or small euro national league is a nice funding injection that can help support struggling franchises or other development programs. Is it better for hockey that this money that is generated by the pro hockey tournement leaves hockey when it goes to the IOC instead? What's offered to smaller euro nations besides MONEY is that they are not limited to IOC single host restrictions. You can have a Sweden vs Finland match in Helsinki, Czech vs Slovak match in Bratislava, Russia vs Germany in Munch, etc. So more accessable to actual hockey fans than Pyeongchang, South KOREA.

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02-20-2013, 12:18 PM
  #287
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No they don't. They want to grow the soport in the USA. And they do a sh** job of that. How does anybody think they could possibly do that internationally???

They do want to get the best talent in the world, I will give you that.
This is pretty much bang on. The NHL wants to maximize its revenues, and by far there biggest source of revenue is in NA. Also the NHL does want to have the best players, but that is different from growing the game. The best are the best, regardless of the size of the pool.

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02-20-2013, 12:26 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Please, are we seriously gonna pretend Austria or Italy has a chance against teams full of NHL all stars just cuz they managed to scrape together more IIHF fairy points against other C-level teams? Germany has a team of NHLers and borderline NHLers of course they will put up a decent game against Canada/USA/Russia/Sweden while Austria will lose 12-0.
It doesn't matter. In soccer for example every nation has the chance to qualify for the world championship, no matter how small and unimportant: Andorra, Belize, Tuvalu... And that's the only way to go if (if...) you want Europeans to accept the tournament as a legit international competition.

BTW Italy defeated Germany and Austria held Germany to a draw after 60 minutes, so their "IIHF fairy points" were won in direct competition against Germany.

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So what it can be an evening game is Russia will air at Matinee times in Canada?
Arithmetics. 14:00 in Vancouver = 17:00 in Toronto = 23:00 in Stockholm = 1:00 in Moscow. The game will have to air at forenoon and noon in Canada. I'm fine with that. But is the NHL?

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02-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #289
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Tell me how the NHL did a better job in the Canada Cup/World Cup?
I think NBA and the IOC paved the way for the NHL to join the Olympics, I'm not sure why people give the IIHF so much credit. Most Europeans love to bash the Canada Cup / World Cup but they forget that for close to half a century the IIHF and IOC did everything in their power to keep North Americas best players out of their tournaments. As a result we evil North Americans decided to organize our own tournament where all the best players would attend, how terrible of us! Only when a lot of Europeans started to play in NA did the IIHF/IOC begin to change their tune.

Many people don't realize that in the last +30 years there have actually been more World Cups with games played in Europe than World Championships with games played in NA.

Those who know a bit about the history of hockey know that the IIHF as a whole have done a pretty terrible job over the years.

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02-20-2013, 12:37 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Why wouldn't NBC or NBC sports cover it, what else are they gonna put on in September? Who says it's just meant for North Americans? Just the usual NHL bashing malcontents here making up strawmen.

Why is MONEY such a bad thing? 7 figures to a national federation or small euro national league is a nice funding injection that can help support struggling franchises or other development programs. Is it better for hockey that this money that is generated by the pro hockey tournement leaves hockey when it goes to the IOC instead? What's offered to smaller euro nations besides MONEY is that they are not limited to IOC single host restrictions. You can have a Sweden vs Finland match in Helsinki, Czech vs Slovak match in Bratislava, Russia vs Germany in Munch, etc. So more accessable to actual hockey fans than Pyeongchang, South KOREA.
Depends on the year. NBC has the EPL rights now, if there'd be games in Europe, there'd be overlapping and even Europeans would rather watch the EPL in September than World Cup. Plus there's Summer Olympics, athletics World Championships and FIFA World Cup/UEFA Euro Cup and what not that would have exhausted the sports medias and fans by then.

Nothing wrong with money but like I said, it's not realistic to expect the NHL to fork out such money and still finish on the plus. It's also fairly delusional to expect the NHL to allow the deciding games to be potentially hosted outside of North America and not be on tv in prime time.

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02-20-2013, 12:38 PM
  #291
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Tell me how the NHL did a better job in the Canada Cup/World Cup?
Canada Cup '87 was fantastic. It seemed to go downhill after that - not sure if it was bad management or what.

 
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02-20-2013, 12:39 PM
  #292
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I think NBA and the IOC paved the way for the NHL to join the Olympics, I'm not sure why people give the IIHF so much credit. Most Europeans love to bash the Canada Cup / World Cup but they forget that for close to half a century the IIHF and IOC did everything in their power to keep North Americas best players out of their tournaments. As a result we evil North Americans decided to organize our own tournament where all the best players would attend, how terrible of us! Only when a lot of Europeans started to play in NA did the IIHF/IOC begin to change their tune.

Many people don't realize that in the last +30 years there have actually been more World Cups with games played in Europe than World Championships with games played in NA.

Those who know a bit about the history of hockey know that the IIHF as a whole have done a pretty terrible job over the years.
Oh cry me a river! That's it, you're back on the list.

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02-20-2013, 12:40 PM
  #293
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Canada Cup '87 was fantastic. It seemed to go downhill after that - not sure if it was bad management or what.
Something historical happened after 1991...

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02-20-2013, 12:53 PM
  #294
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Something historical happened after 1991...
Yeah, that could have been a big part of it.

 
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02-20-2013, 01:02 PM
  #295
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I think NBA and the IOC paved the way for the NHL to join the Olympics
True.

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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'm not sure why people give the IIHF so much credit.
The IIHF had to agree. And did so.

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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Most Europeans love to bash the Canada Cup / World Cup but they forget that for close to half a century the IIHF and IOC did everything in their power to keep North Americas best players out of their tournaments. (...)
Fair point, conceded. Fortunately that's not an issue any more. And it hasn't been one for nearly 20 years now.

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Many people don't realize that in the last +30 years there have actually been more World Cups with games played in Europe than World Championships with games played in NA.
2 World Cups vs 1 World Championship. But compare the number of games played: 12 WC games in Europe vs 54 WCH games in NA . Number of playoff games: 2 vs 7. No gold medal game vs gold medal game.
You could also figure in the 2 best-on-best Olympics held in North America. 50 additional games in NA, including 18 playoff games, including 2 gold medal games.

All in all it's 2 tournaments vs 3 tournaments. 12 games vs 104 games. 2 playoff games vs 25 playoff games. Zero gold medal games vs 3 gold medal games.

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02-20-2013, 01:13 PM
  #296
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Wrestling hasn't been cut yet, it's only on the list so far and it's there simply because it's own doing. It's far more corrupt now than the IOC has ever been.
Arguable at best. Read work by John Hoberman, Thomas M. Hunt and Robert Voy.

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02-20-2013, 01:20 PM
  #297
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Arguable at best. Read work by John Hoberman, Thomas M. Hunt and Robert Voy.
I don't think the IOC has ever been used by one country's federation for money laundering as the Finnish wrestling people are saying about the international wrestling federation.

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02-20-2013, 01:23 PM
  #298
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Arithmetics. 14:00 in Vancouver = 17:00 in Toronto = 23:00 in Stockholm = 1:00 in Moscow. The game will have to air at forenoon and noon in Canada. I'm fine with that. But is the NHL?
NHL has plenty of matinee games airing at 12, 1pm, heck NBC prefers them at that time cuz Americans like their weekend afternoon sports. Even Canadian teams do occasionally for "Hockey Day in Canada" events or kid friendly matinees so a game that starts at 9pm - 10 PM in Moscow would be perfectly fine for NA especially if an objective is to get kids interested in Hockey.

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02-20-2013, 01:25 PM
  #299
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True.



The IIHF had to agree. And did so.



Fair point, conceded. Fortunately that's not an issue any more. And it hasn't been one for nearly 20 years now.



2 World Cups vs 1 World Championship. But compare the number of games played: 12 WC games in Europe vs 54 WCH games in NA . Number of playoff games: 2 vs 7. No gold medal game vs gold medal game.
You could also figure in the 2 best-on-best Olympics held in North America. 50 additional games in NA, including 18 playoff games, including 2 gold medal games.

All in all it's 2 tournaments vs 3 tournaments. 12 games vs 104 games. 2 playoff games vs 25 playoff games. Zero gold medal games vs 3 gold medal games.
Bingo.

I mean, even in its 3rd try MLB/NPB/IBAF/KBO/etc have grown the WBC into a tourney involving 24 teams including the qualifiers. The World Cup to this day after many more tries only chose teams the NHL's marketing department wants.

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02-20-2013, 01:52 PM
  #300
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Many more tries, You mean twice?? The last time 2004, after which is was shelved?? Well given that, the next one in 2016 if it happens will SURELY be EXACTLY the same?? Nothing EVER changes !

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