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Those who can make a poll, please make a Neal vs. Pacioretty poll. Curious to see the outcome. Hopefully Neal's awful plus/minus won't hurt him too much.
As a homer, it's quite impossible to come up with a value for Neal. I'm sure Shero has an idea of what it'd take, but I'm sure that it would be a massive overpayment. Playing in his role here he's one of the best wingers in the league. His value to us (playing with Geno or even Sid) is way more than what we'd get for him.
Nice little twisting of the arm to make Neal's previous seasons obsolete in the argument so that yours looks better.
Neal's was a better season because it was complete, but he had only a slight edge in PPG.
Pacioretty in those two years averaged a combined .77ppg. Neal, despite having centers like Richards and Ribeiro had a combined .64ppg. Neal had 11 more points in 47 extra games played. So two players in a similar situation, at the same ages, and one is outproducing the other on a PPG basis. Suddenly Neil becomes Malkin's linemate and his PPG jumps to a point per game. People not understand the correlation here?
Well I'll explain it to you, playing with Malkin over Desharnais, improves your chances of producing at the NHL level. Remove Malkin from the equation and Pacioretty produces more. Too difficult to understand?
So no, as a Hab fan, I wouldn't trade Pacioretty for Neal. Can understand Pens fans not wanting to deal Neal for Pacioretty, since he has established nice chemistry with Malkin, but Malkin was already great without Neal and would continue being great if Neal left.
Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 02-19-2013 at 07:54 AM.
Neal's best attribute: he creeps to the open ice about 25-20 feet or less from the goal. There he waits...gets the puck and fires it in a split second with blistering speed. Almost always on net, and if open, almost always past the goaltender.
i still have yet to understand why people call the real deal a power forward... yes, he's big, and he uses his body, but wouldn't a sniper probably be a better classification? I mean, unless you've never watched him play...
i still have yet to understand why people call the real deal a power forward... yes, he's big, and he uses his body, but wouldn't a sniper probably be a better classification? I mean, unless you've never watched him play...
In Dallas, he was more of a power forward. He would score most of his goals from in close and around the net. Would also block the goaltender's vision.
In Pittsburgh, he doesn't have to do that. He was switched to RW. Settles into open ice and gets fed by Malkin around the 20 foot range for wristers and one-timers.
At one point he was a PF. Now, because of circumstances, he is most definitely a sniper.
With the Penguins, people like to give all the credit to Malkin & Crosby, which I guess wouldn't be that wrong most of the time, but in regards to Neal, it's so off base if people think he's a product of Malkin.
Those people likely saw a game or two and based their entire opinion about him off that.
People said the same thing about Loui Eriksson when Richards was a Star. Good players are good players; the better ones find a way to keep scoring regardless of personal circumstances.
Neal's was a better season because it was complete, but he had only a slight edge in PPG.
Pacioretty in those two years averaged a combined .77ppg. Neal, despite having centers like Richards and Ribeiro had a combined .64ppg. Neal had 11 more points in 47 extra games played. So two players in a similar situation, at the same ages, and one is outproducing the other on a PPG basis. Suddenly Neil becomes Malkin's linemate and his PPG jumps to a point per game. People not understand the correlation here?
And that's exactly why Pacioretty's points per game is closer to Neal's, lesser games played. I'll say it again, as I did in the Crosby thread on the main boards, it's easier to sustain greatness (or in this case, a higher PPG average) over a shorter period of time. It's the truly great players who do it over a full season.
Neal had shown that in Dallas that he could put up goals and points and was going to regardless of whether playing with Malkin or not. Pacioretty has had ONE season in which he's produced at that kind of level.
Pacioretty still has a lot to prove, as compared to Neal.
Quote:
Well I'll explain it to you, playing with Malkin over Desharnais, improves your chances of producing at the NHL level. Remove Malkin from the equation and Pacioretty produces more. Too difficult to understand?
No, what's too difficult to understand here is how you can't grasp the concept that Neal would still be putting similar, if not better numbers than Pacioretty even if he stayed in Dallas. The fact that you'd even indirectly in your posts suggest the notion that Neal would have "plateau'ed" without playing with Malkin is a joke and completely eliminates any type of developmental curve that Neal would have while favoring Pacioretty and giving him one, which is a double standard, which doesn't surprise me, with your posting history.
In Dallas, he was more of a power forward. He would score most of his goals from in close and around the net. Would also block the goaltender's vision.
In Pittsburgh, he doesn't have to do that. He was switched to RW. Settles into open ice and gets fed by Malkin around the 20 foot range for wristers and one-timers.
At one point he was a PF. Now, because of circumstances, he is most definitely a sniper.
Bingo.
He's a bit of a hybrid, but he's definitely closer to a sniper now. A large reason for his increase in scoring is simply that he's being asked to shoot the puck from the slot instead of going to the net (his shot total jumped from 212 the year he was traded to 329 last year, while his shooting percentage remained consistent with his career numbers...it was actually lower than it was his first two seasons).
With Neal's shot he's going to be a 35+ goal guy anywhere he plays when he's not having his best skill being somewhat clipped. Hell, maybe he would have evolved into that in Dallas while staying in the PWF role...I know it's completely unrealistic that a player improves after the age of 23 according to this place...but...yeah.
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In Dallas, he was more of a power forward. He would score most of his goals from in close and around the net. Would also block the goaltender's vision.
In Pittsburgh, he doesn't have to do that. He was switched to RW. Settles into open ice and gets fed by Malkin around the 20 foot range for wristers and one-timers.
At one point he was a PF. Now, because of circumstances, he is most definitely a sniper.
Eh, he wasn't really that much of a PF in Dallas either. He scored plenty of goals off the rush using his shot and off the cycle; I don't recall him being much of a net presence in Dallas, though he did from time to time.
I'm going to be really honest and admit that I haven't seen much of him in Pittsburgh aside from some goal highlights and so forth, but based on what little I've seen and what Pens fans say about his game it sounds more like a situation where a young goal scorer continued to get better because he wasn't close to a finished product when he left Dallas. Also, he was used at RW from time to time in Dallas, though not for an extended period of time, to varying degrees of success. The reason he was kept at LW in Dallas was because frankly, Eriksson can play both wings and was a better player at RW than Neal was.
Eh, he wasn't really that much of a PF in Dallas either. He scored plenty of goals off the rush using his shot and off the cycle; I don't recall him being much of a net presence in Dallas, though he did from time to time.
I'm going to be really honest and admit that I haven't seen much of him in Pittsburgh aside from some goal highlights and so forth, but based on what little I've seen and what Pens fans say about his game it sounds more like a situation where a young goal scorer continued to get better because he wasn't close to a finished product when he left Dallas. Also, he was used at RW from time to time in Dallas, though not for an extended period of time, to varying degrees of success. The reason he was kept at LW in Dallas was because frankly, Eriksson can play both wings and was a better player at RW than Neal was.
I agree with most of what you said. My point still is this. With Malkin, he doesn't need to do any of that. He just lets Malkin put on a circus (Malkin and Crosby, if on the powerplay) while defenders slowly drift away from James and towards 71/87. At the same time, Neal subtly drifts away from defenders and parks himself in prime shooting position. Even if he had a little power forward in his game before, it has all disappeared.
Numerous Penguins have said that Neal, while not the best overall player, has the best wrist shot they've ever seen. He is now a pure sniper, and one of the best.
"If you're going to make a book on a shooter and a guy getting open, just watch this guy play the game," coach Dan Bylsma on James Neal.
