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Old
02-20-2013, 10:20 AM
  #26
Zoombie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
the suggestion that ovechkin doesnt elevate for the playoffs is either stupidity or ignorance. he has 30goals and 59pts in 51 playoff games.

eberle has 0goals and 0pts in 0 playoff games. how you could have the first clue that he elevates his game is pure speculation. you honestly think that if chara was checking eberle for 7 straight games that eberle would out perform ovechkin?

what are you smoking?
I think his 'game elevation when it matters' was a reference to the World Juniors.... Eberle is on a waayyyy better contract than Ovi and did he not finish close or above him in pts last year? (edit: he did I just checked, same games 11 more pts.). Eberle is the best of the big 4 in Edmonton so far imo.


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Old
02-20-2013, 10:20 AM
  #27
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the 'at least in the neighborhood of Ovy/Backs' made me chuckle.

i didn't know the big 4 had hit over 100 pts. in their young careers.

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Old
02-20-2013, 10:36 AM
  #28
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Carlson + Johansson for one of big 4 and Petry.

Does that work for any of the big 4?

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Old
02-20-2013, 10:39 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Carlson + Johansson for one of big 4 and Petry.

Does that work for any of the big 4?
Smart GMs don't give up on a young promising player who has proven to be a gamer at every level because of a mediocre 15 games.

Talking about Carlson, btw

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:02 AM
  #30
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Ebs is untouchable, end of story.

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:08 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
Four players with more value than Alzner and Carlson and at least in the neighbourhood of Ovechkin/Backstrom (Oilers would have to add for one of those two)? Yes.
- have a top5 ever goal scoring pace for first 5 years.
- hear that Eberle is the same neighborhood AT LEAST.


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Old
02-20-2013, 12:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Carlzner View Post
Smart GMs don't give up on a young promising player who has proven to be a gamer at every level because of a mediocre 15 games.

Talking about Carlson, btw
That package is far from "giving up on" Carlson .

Eberle is imply not available. No sense in going any further with it

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:14 PM
  #33
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Wow. You have four Wayne Gretzkys there right?
And a Coffee dont forget

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:18 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
ok...lets do it. ovechkin for eberle.
I cant believe I am saying this...... but No from Edmonton. If this was 3 years ago I would have been drooling and jumping up and down at the chance to get Ovy but now, not so much. I dont know if a change of scenery will bring back some of his old form but I doubt it. He seems to have become too stubborn in his game. He keeps doing the same things that dont work for hm anymore. Add his mediocre production to his gigantic contract and he is not worth it.

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:24 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
the 'at least in the neighborhood of Ovy/Backs' made me chuckle.

i didn't know the big 4 had hit over 100 pts. in their young careers.
Its not about the past. Its about now and the future. The way Ovy is going he may be outscored by any of the 4 top Oilers in the years to come. Or maybe all of them There are 4 Oilers ahead of him in points right now. (Although it is not all of the fab 4)

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:31 PM
  #36
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Its not about the past. Its about now and the future. The way Ovy is going he may be outscored by any of the 4 top Oilers in the years to come. Or maybe all of them There are 4 Oilers ahead of him in points right now. (Although it is not all of the fab 4)
ok, so basically you're saying we should take into account what a few players have done in 15 games and forget what others have done for years - because god knows they might never find that form ever again.

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #37
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More value than Carlson or Alzner? C'mon.
One of the best young d-men in the league and best youn defensive d-man in the league. One of them is surely worth at least Hall.
I like Alzner and Carlson but come on. Eberle is an established first line winger and is younger than both Alzner and Carlson...

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:39 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
the 'at least in the neighborhood of Ovy/Backs' made me chuckle.

i didn't know the big 4 had hit over 100 pts. in their young careers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
- have a top5 ever goal scoring pace for first 5 years.
- hear that Eberle is the same neighborhood AT LEAST.

If Ovechkin was still on that first 5 years pace this wouldn't even be a discussion. The fact of the matter is the cap is going down and Ovechkin had a poor year last and a poor start to this year. It's not a sure thing that he's going to continue this poor play but it's also not a sure thing that he's going to go back to his dominant self either. The kicker is the 9.5 million cap hit that comes with him. Not saying the guys getting traded but that's a huge chunk of the cap for a wildcard.

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:57 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Carlzner View Post
Smart GMs don't give up on a young promising player who has proven to be a gamer at every level because of a mediocre 15 games.

Talking about Carlson, btw
Yes, because I'd be trading him for scraps

Smart GMs make trades that make their team better.

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:58 PM
  #40
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This trade is really iffy for me as the Caps lose Green who is playing his best defense this year but is hurt again... And Laich and Orlov have yet to see the ice this season

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:00 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
If Ovechkin was still on that first 5 years pace this wouldn't even be a discussion. The fact of the matter is the cap is going down and Ovechkin had a poor year last and a poor start to this year. It's not a sure thing that he's going to continue this poor play but it's also not a sure thing that he's going to go back to his dominant self either. The kicker is the 9.5 million cap hit that comes with him. Not saying the guys getting traded but that's a huge chunk of the cap for a wildcard.
it's not just Ovechkin who's been subpar for the Caps. the team is at their third coach in 2 years and they've only started to look better these last few games.

you can point out Ovy's cap hit all you want - the guy remains a playoff warrior. to even consider a bunch of Oilers who have yet to take sniff of that action and say they're in the same neighborhood is really pushing it.

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:10 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
I like Alzner and Carlson but come on. Eberle is an established first line winger and is younger than both Alzner and Carlson...
And Alzner and Carlson are established first defensive pairing. Comparing age is worthless because stats show that most NHL scorers peak out before 28. I think Neil Greenberg did that calculating Nash's value.

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:11 PM
  #43
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Caps would have the best 2nd and 3rd pairings in the NHL after this trade as seen in the OP.

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:15 PM
  #44
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ok, so basically you're saying we should take into account what a few players have done in 15 games and forget what others have done for years - because god knows they might never find that form ever again.
Now you're thinking like a GM.

Nobody in the world cares how dominant their past was. All that matters is NOW. The only people who care about past performance are fans and idiot GMs. It's the reason stars don't come out of retirement on a regular basis (Besides just not wanting to play).

I don't care who you are. If you have a bad season or two in a row your job is on the line. Don't give me this bullcrap about past performance dictating future value.

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:26 PM
  #45
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Now you're thinking like a GM.

Nobody in the world cares how dominant their past was. All that matters is NOW. The only people who care about past performance are fans and idiot GMs. It's the reason stars don't come out of retirement on a regular basis (Besides just not wanting to play).

I don't care who you are. If you have a bad season or two in a row your job is on the line. Don't give me this bullcrap about past performance dictating future value.
if that were true - why do organizations give out 1-2 year contracts to players whom they are unsure of?

even if that player had one great year but his play was criticized for years before that... he's not going to get a contract that goes more than for 2 years.

and to those GMs that do make the mistake of giving out crazy contracts to UFAs - it's because they're just that: UFAs.

don't give me this NOW crap - otherwise Aaron Voros would still be in the NHL getting first line minutes.

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:40 PM
  #46
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if that were true - why do organizations give out 1-2 year contracts to players whom they are unsure of?

even if that player had one great year but his play was criticized for years before that... he's not going to get a contract that goes more than for 2 years.

and to those GMs that do make the mistake of giving out crazy contracts to UFAs - it's because they're just that: UFAs.

don't give me this NOW crap - otherwise Aaron Voros would still be in the NHL getting first line minutes.
If you are seriously questioning this elementary doctrine of hockey you should take a step back and ask yourself what your suggesting here. Do you honestly think that someone can stink up the joint for consecutive seasons then bank a contract based on a performance 3 years ago?

Here's a microcosm of this in action. A goaltender let's in 3 goals on 10 shots. Does the coach contemplate his past performance a year ago, a week ago, a game ago? Hell no. His ass gets pulled NOW.

Ovechkin has been a 30 goal scorer for 2 consecutive years now and is on pace for very similar season. He has shown he has lost the fire that drove him during his incredible early years. The only saving grace for him is that there is a small belief he could regain he past performance and that's waning fast. But that's it. He's just a 30 goal scorer to any other GM in the league at this point and I question any GM who thinks otherwise.

One has to wonder what your fantasy league looks like.

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:54 PM
  #47
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If you are seriously questioning this elementary doctrine of hockey you should take a step back and ask yourself what your suggesting here. Do you honestly think that someone can stink up the joint for consecutive seasons then bank a contract based on a performance 3 years ago?

Here's a microcosm of this in action. A goaltender let's in 3 goals on 10 shots. Does the coach contemplate his past performance a year ago, a week ago, a game ago? Hell no. His ass gets pulled NOW.

Ovechkin has been a 30 goal scorer for 2 consecutive years now and is on pace for very similar season. He has shown he has lost the fire that drove him during his incredible early years. The only saving grace for him is that there is a small belief he could regain he past performance and that's waning fast. But that's it. He's just a 30 goal scorer to any other GM in the league at this point and I question any GM who thinks otherwise.

One has to wonder what your fantasy league looks like.
a goalie who lets in 3 goals in 10 shots gets pulled... only to most likely get a start soon enough again. that's a very poor example to pick.

look at Semin: insanely talented player - but has been known for floating from time to time and not backchecking. hell, even concerns that he doesn't care to play in the NHL and could easily just leave for the KHL has been raised numerous times. what does Rutherford do? signs him up for a year and it's paying dividends right now. what will happen next year? who knows.

Ovy might not be the great player he was now - but that doesn't mean he's dead and gone. he's too young and hasn't suffered devastating injuries to just assume that this is it.

and as for my keeper league - don't fret. i've got a wicked team.

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Old
02-20-2013, 02:24 PM
  #48
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a goalie who lets in 3 goals in 10 shots gets pulled... only to most likely get a start soon enough again. that's a very poor example to pick.

look at Semin: insanely talented player - but has been known for floating from time to time and not backchecking. hell, even concerns that he doesn't care to play in the NHL and could easily just leave for the KHL has been raised numerous times. what does Rutherford do? signs him up for a year and it's paying dividends right now. what will happen next year? who knows.

Ovy might not be the great player he was now - but that doesn't mean he's dead and gone. he's too young and hasn't suffered devastating injuries to just assume that this is it.

and as for my keeper league - don't fret. i've got a wicked team.
Good point with Semin. Do you think it was a good signing? He's being paid $7M right now for 3 goals. Despite his previous years where he reverted from being a 40 goal scorer to a 30 goal scorer to a 20 goal scorer. The trend is there and it's a fact that his production has severely dropped.

Just because Rutherford went against the hockey doctrine and did some mental gymnastics to justify this signing it doesn't mean this is a sound decision. This isn't a "prove yourself" scenario for Semin. Rutherford signed him with the full expectations that come with a $7M salary.

As it stands Rutherford signed a waning 30 goal scorer to a 1 year $7M salary. He based his decision on a past performance based on playing in a highly offensive system with the likes of a 50 goal scoring team mate. This is a bad signing but he was at least smart enough to only sign a one year deal.

As for Ovechkin you're dealing with extremes. no one is calling him dead in the water. But he should no longer be considered a 60 goal or even a 40 goal scorer but rather what he is: a 30 goal scorer (Who also gets paid $9.5).

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Old
02-20-2013, 02:33 PM
  #49
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Good point with Semin. Do you think it was a good signing? He's being paid $7M right now for 3 goals. Despite his previous years where he reverted from being a 40 goal scorer to a 30 goal scorer to a 20 goal scorer. The trend is there and it's a fact that his production has severely dropped.

Just because Rutherford went against the hockey doctrine and did some mental gymnastics to justify this signing it doesn't mean this is a sound decision. This isn't a "prove yourself" scenario for Semin. Rutherford signed him with the full expectations that come with a $7M salary.

As it stands Rutherford signed a waning 30 goal scorer to a 1 year $7M salary. He based his decision on a past performance based on playing in a highly offensive system with the likes of a 50 goal scoring team mate. This is a bad signing but he was at least smart enough to only sign a one year deal.

As for Ovechkin you're dealing with extremes. no one is calling him dead in the water. But he should no longer be considered a 60 goal or even a 40 goal scorer but rather what he is: a 30 goal scorer (Who also gets paid $9.5).
Semin might not be putting up the same point totals as he used to - but by looking at the team stats, he's got the most TOI among forwards on the Canes. so he's definitely doing something right.

anyway, you might be right about Ovy. he might be past his prime or other teams have simply figured how to play against him. but i wouldn't be surprised at all if he came back to his 50+ goals self that we quickly got used to.

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Old
02-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #50
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What Oiler fans show here is called "What have you done for me lately" mentality. Typical for a fanbase of a team whose stars are on the rise. As soon as they will normalize, their production will come to normal, statistically average result of their talents, you'll start remembering past performances. Been there, done that.

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