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#5/6 PP Specialist D-Man to the NYR

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:03 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
A 3rd and Ryan Bourque for Postma is the offer on the table, have not heard back.
Will not get the job done.

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02-20-2013, 11:14 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
No offense to the pieces from the Rangers, but Pyatt, Yogan, and Eminger aren't upgrades on any pieces the team already has. If the team is dealing Postma, it's not because they are not happy with him, it's because they need to trade an asset to fill another hole.

A tough, LH, defenseman equivalent to Postma would be nice, or a RW. Otherwise I think they keep him. (unless an too good to be true offer of picks and prospects is offered obviously)
Appreciate your courtesy in overlooking my error as to Winn not CBJ.

I went with Pyatt because I thought he would be immediate help now, with Yogan the upside. Granted, Pyatt is not sniper quality help, but thought he'd be basically reliable and chip in.

Despite error as to nomenclature, I was paying attention in an offer of a RW.

My ? for you is, if Pyatt is not enough, considering a pick is available also, what RW would you want?

Unless you want to role dice on two boom bust guys with high scoring potential (say Christian Thomas + Michael St. Croix) I'm not sure Rangers have a complementary fit for RW presently available...

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02-20-2013, 11:19 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
If you want people to take you seriously, do some homework and figure out which team the player you're targeting plays for. Then, post your lopsided, ridiculous proposal. There's a reason why your proposals are constantly mocked by literally, everyone.
Now, now, now....
I know it's difficult to not go overboard, but do try.
I mistook A for B, since acknowledged.
It was like referring to a tangerine as an orange.

The core of what I offered as to what WIN was seeking (RW) was correct as proven by a subsequent post.

Oh, and by the way you are not "everyone".

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02-20-2013, 11:25 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
To NYR
Y.Weber

To MTL
Boyle


habs could use the size & faceoff ability down the middle (assuming they were convinced Boyle's ego would be ok with being firmly slotted on the 4th line).

Weber fits the OP's desired player to a tee... IMHO he will eventually be a regular top-4/5 dman, kid has great offensive skills and is quite competitive. Just needs some time to adjust his positional game to the NHL level and get some confidence going (like many smallish dmen). He's not nearly as one-dimensional or defensively inept as many other depth PP specialist dmen.

Boyle's more established, but like Weber has been in the press box quite a bit this year, and is 850K more expensive on the cap.

Rangers taking the bigger risk, but habs have less incentive to deal & less need... take it or leave it.
Don't compare Boyle and Weber. Boyle was benched for 3 games to lit a fire under his butt and now he is back to his old self. Weber is watching the games because he is #8D on your depth chart.
Weber has been a throw in in every habs trade proposal for a reason.

Also, if he had any real value, he would have been traded already. A lot of teams are desperate for defensive depth e.g. Philly.

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02-20-2013, 11:27 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Will not get the job done.
It should, or we move on.

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02-20-2013, 12:18 PM
  #156
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Again and again it has been stressed that it is not a personnel problem. It is a coaching problem. Go poach the Pens PP coach, or maybe hire Adam Oates after he gets fired which should be soon.

Nash-Stepan-Gaborik
Richards-Del Zotto

Callahan-Miller-Hagelin
Staal-McDonagh/Stralman/Girardi/Pyatt

Look at that. It's obvious the players on the PP aren't the problem.

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02-20-2013, 12:21 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
It should, or we move on.
Can we have an honest discussion about this?

I agree we should not massive overpay.

If we have to pay a moderate premium we can live with to get the guy we want, we should do it.

The question is which combinations of assets are there and into which of these 2 categories do such offers get placed?

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02-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #158
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I'd be willing to move Stu Bickel+FC for MAB straight up. Probably some picks and stuff for Gonchar at the deadline too, but that's about it.

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02-20-2013, 01:22 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Can we have an honest discussion about this?

I agree we should not massive overpay.

If we have to pay a moderate premium we can live with to get the guy we want, we should do it.

The question is which combinations of assets are there and into which of these 2 categories do such offers get placed?
It is a guy we want, but do not need.
Postma provides good depth, can skate, good shot from the point, but is light on his skates, needs to bulk up a bit, he lacks the "jam" Torts likes so much.
He is averaging about 16 minutes of ice time, He has played good when on the ice. I am not sure he can sustain it over 82 games (I doubt Torts would let him sniff the ice in the playoffs, except maybe on the second PP unit) with his slight build, but that is just my opinion.
He is a slight upgrade over Stralman because of his shot, would be a bottom pairing on the Rangers (#6 or #7, maybe #5 if Stralman wets the bed), for that I am not paying more than 3rd and Bourque.
Jets can probably get better value somewhere else.

What the Rangers need is a mobile physical stay at home Dman to pair with MDZ, if he has a good shot, that would be a bonus.

Edit: I reserve the right to change my mind if DZ ends up traded, there are certain rumors flying around


Last edited by Kwayry: 02-20-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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02-20-2013, 01:24 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Appreciate your courtesy in overlooking my error as to Winn not CBJ.

I went with Pyatt because I thought he would be immediate help now, with Yogan the upside. Granted, Pyatt is not sniper quality help, but thought he'd be basically reliable and chip in.

Despite error as to nomenclature, I was paying attention in an offer of a RW.

My ? for you is, if Pyatt is not enough, considering a pick is available also, what RW would you want?

Unless you want to role dice on two boom bust guys with high scoring potential (say Christian Thomas + Michael St. Croix) I'm not sure Rangers have a complementary fit for RW presently available...
It's tough because it can be hard to look at another roster sometimes and find a comparable piece. Pyatt is a nice 3rd line player with size, it's just that as the Jets are not looking like much of a playoff team, it doesn't seem like solid asset management to move a young guy with upside for him.

On RW though, Postma is no where near worth your two top prospects (Miller and Kreider), but after that I'm not sure if the rest are similar to what we have. Maybe a guy like Fasth? Tough to say though as I don't know anything about him. And the fact that it looks like the Jets mandate is to get big and tough doesn't help.

If the Jets are trading Postma, it would be nice to get a comparable player in terms of age and upside back, just in a position of need. Postma has been putting up .7 ppg in the AHL the last three years and has been a 1st team all-star. So it would be nice to either get a young forward with similar credentials, or a young defensive defenseman (preferably LH).

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02-20-2013, 02:11 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Don't compare Boyle and Weber. Boyle was benched for 3 games to lit a fire under his butt and now he is back to his old self. Weber is watching the games because he is #8D on your depth chart.
Weber has been a throw in in every habs trade proposal for a reason.

Also, if he had any real value, he would have been traded already. A lot of teams are desperate for defensive depth e.g. Philly.
or maybe he hasn't been dealt yet because he is cheap, young, talented and an impending RFA... all of which makes him a valuable depth commodity in case of injury.

don't put so much stock into what random posters offer up in trade boards... not too long ago that guys like Ryder, Halak, S.Kostsitsyn, Ribeiro et. were offered up as spare parts just because.

anyone who has taken the time to follow Weber's career, or watch him play at more than the superficial fan level, can tell you that the kid has much bigger upside than depth dman.

habs have no reason to move him yet unless it's to make the team better. i doubt they'll be dumb enough to trade him for the idiotic "5th round pick" type returns that some fans clamor for.

then again, we do have a track record of waisting promising young assets before giving them a real shot, hopefully the new management is smarter than that.

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02-20-2013, 02:12 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
It's tough because it can be hard to look at another roster sometimes and find a comparable piece. Pyatt is a nice 3rd line player with size, it's just that as the Jets are not looking like much of a playoff team, it doesn't seem like solid asset management to move a young guy with upside for him.

On RW though, Postma is no where near worth your two top prospects (Miller and Kreider), but after that I'm not sure if the rest are similar to what we have. Maybe a guy like Fasth? Tough to say though as I don't know anything about him. And the fact that it looks like the Jets mandate is to get big and tough doesn't help.

If the Jets are trading Postma, it would be nice to get a comparable player in terms of age and upside back, just in a position of need. Postma has been putting up .7 ppg in the AHL the last three years and has been a 1st team all-star. So it would be nice to either get a young forward with similar credentials, or a young defensive defenseman (preferably LH).
Thank you for the polite and informative response.
The reason I suggested Pyatt AND Yogan was because it gave you a productive stopgap for now plus a piece w/upside.

If I had a younger guy we could spare that fit the description more precisely, sure. But I'm not sure we do.

Fast (previously Fasth) is not untouchable, but he appears to be part of the big picture for the moment --- would like to see him in some games w/Hagelin --- and sort of as insurance if something should happen to Callahan. In that sense, he's not really surplus.

You're right about Miller + Kreider.

Christian Thomas is every bit as skilled as Miller, maybe even a better shot, but is a tad undersized, a real Marty St. Louis boom bust who has minimum 4 expectation to stick, but could move higher if he puts on enough weight.

Feel free to take your time, review our prospects and see if we can't do a win-win with a prospect, pick and possibly a Pyatt for Postma and a lesser pick.

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02-20-2013, 02:16 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
It is a guy we want, but do not need.
Postma provides good depth, can skate, good shot from the point, but is light on his skates, needs to bulk up a bit, he lacks the "jam" Torts likes so much.
He is averaging about 16 minutes of ice time, He has played good when on the ice. I am not sure he can sustain it over 82 games (I doubt Torts would let him sniff the ice in the playoffs, except maybe on the second PP unit) with his slight build, but that is just my opinion.
He is a slight upgrade over Stralman because of his shot, would be a bottom pairing on the Rangers (#6 or #7, maybe #5 if Stralman wets the bed), for that I am not paying more than 3rd and Bourque.
Jets can probably get better value somewhere else.

What the Rangers need is a mobile physical stay at home Dman to pair with MDZ, if he has a good shot, that would be a bonus.

Edit: I reserve the right to change my mind if DZ ends up traded, there are certain rumors flying around
I respectfully disagree we do not need. He is incomplete, I admit, but he appears useful for us both as a puck mover and esp. as a righty PP. The ? is what marginal overpay above what he is worth which we can live with will WINNIPEG take for him.

Obviously, the more complete the player, the greater the value and higher the cost, both to acquire and keep.

It is difficult to field a full team of totally solid guys without flaws throughout the lineup. Think this is not a bad gamble, esp. if they might consider Christian Thomas + for Postma +.

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02-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
Again and again it has been stressed that it is not a personnel problem. It is a coaching problem. Go poach the Pens PP coach, or maybe hire Adam Oates after he gets fired which should be soon.

Nash-Stepan-Gaborik
Richards-Del Zotto

Callahan-Miller-Hagelin
Staal-McDonagh/Stralman/Girardi/Pyatt

Look at that. It's obvious the players on the PP aren't the problem.
I agree that it's mostly the coaching, but this right here is a personnel problem. Neither one can QB a powerplay. Richards should be at center where he belongs and Del Zotto shouldn't be on the PP at all.

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02-20-2013, 10:23 PM
  #165
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I agree that it's mostly the coaching, but this right here is a personnel problem. Neither one can QB a powerplay. Richards should be at center where he belongs and Del Zotto shouldn't be on the PP at all.
While a 5 on whatever employing an extra F is not a cardinal sin, having a 2D 3F shift is useful.

Staal is acceptable from the left, but a counterpart puck mover on the right would help.

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02-20-2013, 11:24 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Can we have an honest discussion about this?

I agree we should not massive overpay.

If we have to pay a moderate premium we can live with to get the guy we want, we should do it.

The question is which combinations of assets are there and into which of these 2 categories do such offers get placed?
oh gawd damnit i wish ryan callahan wasn't your captain.

I would give a lot for ryan callahan.

whta the plus to postma for callahan? I'm assuming more then the jets can pay.

how bout brian little + paul postma for Callahan + something small....or just for callahan.

i'd do that but i don't think any other jet fan would


I really like callahan...

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02-21-2013, 12:08 AM
  #167
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oh gawd damnit i wish ryan callahan wasn't your captain.

I would give a lot for ryan callahan.

whta the plus to postma for callahan? I'm assuming more then the jets can pay.

how bout brian little + paul postma for Callahan + something small....or just for callahan.

i'd do that but i don't think any other jet fan would


I really like callahan...
Evander Kane and Enstrom for Callahan. Overpayment? Cool. We'll keep Callahan.

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02-21-2013, 07:57 AM
  #168
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OK. Keep him. So even if we day calkahans a Firstline rw (which i would agree he is but some wont) with intangibles hes worth a very young first line LW and a top pairing d man?


That's a LOT of intangibles.


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02-21-2013, 08:49 AM
  #169
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OK. Keep him. So even if we day calkahans a Firstline rw (which i would agree he is but some wont) with intangibles hes worth a very young first line LW and a top pairing d man?


That's a LOT of intangibles.
Are you capable of looking at a situation beyond what it seems at face value? In a vacuum, no, of course Callahan is not an equivalent value to Kane and Enstrom. But the question was not, "what's the equivalent to Ryan Callahan on the Winnipeg Jets?" It was, "what would it take to bring Callahan to the Winnipeg Jets?" It would require the Jets to give up Enstrom and Kane to make the Rangers move Ryan Callahan. I never claimed it was equal value. I claimed that is what it would take for us to trade him to Winnipeg. Two completely different concepts.

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02-21-2013, 08:49 AM
  #170
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Thank you for the polite and informative response.
The reason I suggested Pyatt AND Yogan was because it gave you a productive stopgap for now plus a piece w/upside.

If I had a younger guy we could spare that fit the description more precisely, sure. But I'm not sure we do.

Fast (previously Fasth) is not untouchable, but he appears to be part of the big picture for the moment --- would like to see him in some games w/Hagelin --- and sort of as insurance if something should happen to Callahan. In that sense, he's not really surplus.

You're right about Miller + Kreider.

Christian Thomas is every bit as skilled as Miller, maybe even a better shot, but is a tad undersized, a real Marty St. Louis boom bust who has minimum 4 expectation to stick, but could move higher if he puts on enough weight.

Feel free to take your time, review our prospects and see if we can't do a win-win with a prospect, pick and possibly a Pyatt for Postma and a lesser pick.
It's tough to say by only looking at prospect writeups and not knowing everything that the organizations know.

I can't see Thomas being someone that the Jets would go after. The Jets look to be trying to build a big team, and he is very undersized. He is also putting up similar offensive numbers in the AHL at 20 that Postma did when he was 20. I would hope that if Postma was traded for a forward, that the forward would be putting up more offense than him.

In what little I have read about Fasth (Fast), he sounds like a good prospect. Although also not large, but he is playing pretty well in the Sweden.

So if I was the GM and dealing with the Rangers I would probably either ask for him, or try to add a bit to get one of the Rangers defensive D prospects.

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02-21-2013, 08:52 AM
  #171
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Are you capable of looking at a situation beyond what it seems at face value? In a vacuum, no, of course Callahan is not an equivalent value to Kane and Enstrom. But the question was not, "what's the equivalent to Ryan Callahan on the Winnipeg Jets?" It was, "what would it take to bring Callahan to the Winnipeg Jets?" It would require the Jets to give up Enstrom and Kane to make the Rangers move Ryan Callahan. I never claimed it was equal value. I claimed that is what it would take for us to trade him to Winnipeg. Two completely different concepts.
I think everyone can understand that but a Jets fan could make the same case that to get Enstrom and / or Kane would take ridiculous over payments as well.

It's the same for our captain (Ladd). It would take more than his worth to get him out of Winnipeg due to how much he means to the team.

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02-21-2013, 08:53 AM
  #172
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What would you give to get Tomas Kundratek back?

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02-21-2013, 09:12 AM
  #173
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I think everyone can understand that but a Jets fan could make the same case that to get Enstrom and / or Kane would take ridiculous over payments as well.

It's the same for our captain (Ladd). It would take more than his worth to get him out of Winnipeg due to how much he means to the team.
We were asked what it would take. I answered, from our perspective, what it would take. Nowhere did I even imply that it would make sense for the Jets. I would of course never expect the Jets to give up Kane and Enstrom. But that's what it would take.

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02-21-2013, 09:18 AM
  #174
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Are you capable of looking at a situation beyond what it seems at face value? Im, no, of course Callahan is not an equivalent value to Kane and Enstrom. But the question was not, "what's the equivalent to Ryan Callahan on the Winnipeg Jets?" It was, "what would it take to bring Callahan to the Winnipeg Jets?" It would require the Jets to give up Enstrom and Kane to make the Rangers move Ryan Callahan. I never claimed it was equal value. I claimed that is what it would take for us to trade him to Winnipeg. Two completely different concepts.
I don't think my post was disrespectful in any manner so I would appreciate it if you would extend the basic common courtesy of a respectful reply, much like you would if we were actually talking then immediately assuming some short coming of my perceptions.

Obviously Callahan is worth more then being "just" what he is, as are the two players on the jets- enstrom is our only above average LHD, and kanes one of two star power players on the roster. So I dare say you've made the exact same mistake you perceive me as making.

Callahan and Ladd are nearly identical players. They are both major glue guys, "grinderish" players who can score at a first line rate, a type of player that's few and far between. That being said, I wouldn't expect a top line forward and top pairing d man for Ladd.

And if I did, i would at least have the courtesy to explain why when proposing it then assuming everyone else is as intimately familiar about what a player bring to my team as I am.

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02-21-2013, 10:13 AM
  #175
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Are you capable of looking at a situation beyond what it seems at face value? In a vacuum, no, of course Callahan is not an equivalent value to Kane and Enstrom. But the question was not, "what's the equivalent to Ryan Callahan on the Winnipeg Jets?" It was, "what would it take to bring Callahan to the Winnipeg Jets?" It would require the Jets to give up Enstrom and Kane to make the Rangers move Ryan Callahan. I never claimed it was equal value. I claimed that is what it would take for us to trade him to Winnipeg. Two completely different concepts.
Half of this ^.
I would not be greedy and would do Kane + Postma for Callahan + X

But the main point is Callahan is a critical core piece, not likely to be moved except for a package with an elite or possibly a different core that is a more pressing need.

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