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Blues Trade Proposals Part 3

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Old
02-18-2013, 07:44 AM
  #951
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OK....while I would be for acquiring Chris Neil, I didn't mean it like that. That is horrendous.
the Russell and a 2nd I could see and perhaps neil and a 4th or mid level prospect , but...the other deal makes no sense to us what so ever.

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02-18-2013, 05:27 PM
  #952
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The thing you are forgetting is you not only have O'Reilly's contract of 4.5 to 5.0 million that you are spending, you are also giving up one of your top three to six to get him. There is no guarantee that Stewart is going to get $4 million next year. He may sign for less. We don't know what Stewart is asking for.

Your true polling question needs to be:

Perron and $4.5 to $5 million for O'Reilly
or $4 million to keep Stewart

I choose Stewart in a nanosecond.
It's still wrong.

First, I explicitly said I personally wouldn't pull a Perron for O'Reilly trade. So that right there is challenging me on something I wouldn't do and have said I wouldn't do.

Second, I don't understand any assumption that says a rebounded, rights-owned Stewart leaves after this season for zero return.

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02-18-2013, 05:28 PM
  #953
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Maybe Andrew MacDonald from the Islanders. He's signed super cheap for this season and next and plays big minutes.

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02-18-2013, 06:23 PM
  #954
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could we possibly stick with the team we have? the 5 game skid is behind us. we just went in to vancouver and came away with 2pts. Just won 3 in a row on the road. I'd rather us keep what we have now and see what we can do in the playoffs and get those guys like schwartz, cole, tarasenko etc. kep playoff experience and if we don't get it done go after an o'reilly, or getzlaf or whoevers available in the offseason/midseason. like the kings and bruins did.

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02-18-2013, 06:29 PM
  #955
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could we possibly stick with the team we have? the 5 game skid is behind us. we just went in to vancouver and came away with 2pts. Just won 3 in a row on the road. I'd rather us keep what we have now and see what we can do in the playoffs and get those guys like schwartz, cole, tarasenko etc. kep playoff experience and if we don't get it done go after an o'reilly, or getzlaf or whoevers available in the offseason/midseason. like the kings and bruins did.
Wanting to not make a trade is fine.

But nobody wants to make a trade just for the sake of making a trade or for tinkering. There ARE some structural issues now and in the future for the Blues.

And the bolded couldn't be more wrong. The Kings made a big deadline trade last year. Carter for JJ was a big time move and very much helped them. The Bruins the year before made several moves, including acquiring Chris Kelly, Tomas Kaberle (who sucked but trading for him didn't break up team chemistry) and trading away Blake Wheeler.

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02-18-2013, 06:45 PM
  #956
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It's still wrong.

First, I explicitly said I personally wouldn't pull a Perron for O'Reilly trade. So that right there is challenging me on something I wouldn't do and have said I wouldn't do.

Second, I don't understand any assumption that says a rebounded, rights-owned Stewart leaves after this season for zero return.
Whether it is Perron, which You did say you would prefer not to do. (nor would I) but you would do a combination of Sobotka, Rattie, Lehtera, and a 1st. I think I would rather see Schwartz, Lehtera, and a pick. Either way, we are parting with assets. Resigning Stewart, you are not parting with assets. You do however, fill a major void that the Blues do not have...the coveted two way center for the next 10 years. I totally get you on this...makes sense. I think Stewart is also an asset that you covet on a team goals and buttkicking toughness...(you do see Perry Turnbull fan right....ha ha)

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02-18-2013, 06:47 PM
  #957
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could we possibly stick with the team we have? the 5 game skid is behind us. we just went in to vancouver and came away with 2pts. Just won 3 in a row on the road. I'd rather us keep what we have now and see what we can do in the playoffs and get those guys like schwartz, cole, tarasenko etc. kep playoff experience and if we don't get it done go after an o'reilly, or getzlaf or whoevers available in the offseason/midseason. like the kings and bruins did.
I think the Blues will absolutely stick with their core unless they are struggling at the deadline and something perfect comes along. However, they will still tweak and add if possible. There's no doubt in my mind that Armstrong is looking at adding a defenseman who can keep one of Russell and Redden off the ice. And he's probably looking at a Langenbrunner replacement in case of injury. Maybe not a guy who brings exactly what Langs did (I damn well hope not), but perhaps a player who can challenge for a third line spot to keep Sobotka on the 4th line when Schwartz gets bumped down a line or sits.

In theory, that should be D'Agostini, but they obviously prefer Schwartz overall, so it could come down to swapping D'Ags for someone in a similar position, but suits the team better and perhaps provides leadership.

If you look at the teams not meeting expectations, you find a lot of teams who are very poor trading partners for the Blues. Buffalo is the only one that catches my eye, and the only players who would really interest me are Sekera and Ehrhoff, who probably isn't available. I'd love one of the Rangers' top 4 d-men, but they'd be nuts to deal any of them. Smid is probably available and wouldn't make a dent in the core, but there could be a bidding war there.

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02-18-2013, 07:01 PM
  #958
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Wanting to not make a trade is fine.

But nobody wants to make a trade just for the sake of making a trade or for tinkering. There ARE some structural issues now and in the future for the Blues.

And the bolded couldn't be more wrong. The Kings made a big deadline trade last year. Carter for JJ was a big time move and very much helped them. The Bruins the year before made several moves, including acquiring Chris Kelly, Tomas Kaberle (who sucked but trading for him didn't break up team chemistry) and trading away Blake Wheeler.
That's what i meant. After two years of making the playoffs they went out and got that big free agent/ trade to fill in that hole to put them over the top. I just don't want us to rush the process. Were back to winning games now and could contend for the presidents trophy with the roster we have right now.

Edit: bruins also picked up recchi.

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02-18-2013, 07:13 PM
  #959
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Whether it is Perron, which You did say you would prefer not to do. (nor would I) but you would do a combination of Sobotka, Rattie, Lehtera, and a 1st. I think I would rather see Schwartz, Lehtera, and a pick. Either way, we are parting with assets. Resigning Stewart, you are not parting with assets. You do however, fill a major void that the Blues do not have...the coveted two way center for the next 10 years. I totally get you on this...makes sense. I think Stewart is also an asset that you covet on a team goals and buttkicking toughness...(you do see Perry Turnbull fan right....ha ha)
All I'm saying is the proposition that it's a choice between

Perron + Stewart OR O'Reilly

<or>

Schwartz/Lehtera/1st package + Stewart OR O'Reilly

is a false choice because it assumes if the Blues no longer have Stewart they wouldn't have returned something for him. Of course those choices look lopsided, because "zero" has effectively been inserted for a return on Stewart (a Stewart in this scenario who has rebounded in his value). What if Stewart rebounds, the Blues would rather pay Giordano 4M instead of Stewart 4M and the Flames would do that trade seeing Iginla decline? Then it's:

Stewart/Schwartz/Lehtera/1st vs. O'Reilly/Giordano

That's an infinitely fairer question. Even if you value Stewart very highly, O'Reilly and Giordano plug the two holes perfectly and you still have two of Jaskin, Rattie, Schwartz. You could entirely justify that sequence even if you thought the value was dead even just because of how it sets up the team:

Steen-Backes-Oshie
McDonald-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Perron-Berglund-D'Agostini (with LW Jaskin and RW Rattie soon behind)
Sobotka-Nichol-Reaves

Giordano-Pietrangelo
Jackman-Shattenkirk
Cole-Polak
Redden/Russell

That team would be set for quite awhile IMO. When McDonald goes, Perron slots in there and you have at least 1 of Jaskin/Rattie either next season or the season after.

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02-18-2013, 07:14 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Wanting to not make a trade is fine.

But nobody wants to make a trade just for the sake of making a trade or for tinkering. There ARE some structural issues now and in the future for the Blues.

And the bolded couldn't be more wrong. The Kings made a big deadline trade last year. Carter for JJ was a big time move and very much helped them. The Bruins the year before made several moves, including acquiring Chris Kelly, Tomas Kaberle (who sucked but trading for him didn't break up team chemistry) and trading away Blake Wheeler.
Agree. I don't either, but there are some structural issues we need to address to make a cup run. An upgrade over Cole in your top 4. A top 9 two-way center and no... Schwartz and Sobotka are not the answer on the 3rd line. Schwartz is not strong enough or consistent enough. He will be in a couple years. Pocket and I can't agree on players, but I do agree with him on this. It's time before we can't afford our roster makeup.

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02-18-2013, 07:15 PM
  #961
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Offensively we are good assuming we don't pick up any injuries. I think for us to make a deep playoff run, we should at least look to upgrade the defense.

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02-18-2013, 07:18 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by STLBLUES44 View Post
That's what i meant. After two years of making the playoffs they went out and got that big free agent/ trade to fill in that hole to put them over the top. I just don't want us to rush the process. Were back to winning games now and could contend for the presidents trophy with the roster we have right now.

Edit: bruins also picked up recchi.
I'm not sure I'm totally clear on what you're saying. Correct me if this is wrong, but it's how I read you now. You're saying the Blues should spend another season or two with the same roster, going to the playoffs, trying to win the President's Trophy, and then after not getting over the hump in the playoffs (ala the Kings/Bruins) this year and/or the next, THEN in a season or two make a deadline trade?

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02-18-2013, 07:29 PM
  #963
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I don't want to be the Cubs of hockey....I want a cup!!! Stick with what we have and plan on going golfing, when the real season begins.

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02-18-2013, 07:47 PM
  #964
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I'm not sure I'm totally clear on what you're saying. Correct me if this is wrong, but it's how I read you now. You're saying the Blues should spend another season or two with the same roster, going to the playoffs, trying to win the President's Trophy, and then after not getting over the hump in the playoffs (ala the Kings/Bruins) this year and/or the next, THEN in a season or two make a deadline trade?
sort of. I mean just this year. don't do anything to major this year. We had stanley cup champs replaced with rookies and I think it would be better for the team to see what this lineup(hopefully opening day lineup) can do in the playoff. We have rookies in tarasenko, schwartz and basically cole finally playing on a consistent basis. I think it could be huge for there development and especially cole's if he's playing top pairing minutes in the playoffs. I also think this because we probably don't want to do anything major before we get petro, shatty, bergy etc.. all signed first. Then we can for sure see where we are financially. Believe me I absolutely would love to see a giordano/Pietrangelo pairing, but i think it would be best for our teams overall development if we let them play this year and see what happens in the playoffs. who knows maybe we'll get hot at the right time.

I'm basically saying that I doubt we do anything major this year but after we re'sign all our core players, that if there's enough money available I fully expect us to make a splash in either the trade/ free agent market for a LHD.

Edit: I'm not that good at transferring what's goin on in my mind and putting it into writing lol. but i think you'll get what i'm saying now. lol

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02-19-2013, 04:46 AM
  #965
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I'm listening; is the main takeaway that you want to see how this team performs in the playoffs this year to do two things: 1) inform how to pay impending key RFAs on their next deals; and 2) inform mgmt of what are truly holes and what are not?

If so, it's basically a conservative approach, which is defensible.

The more aggressive approach is to say we think we know what the holes already are without needing another round of playoff disappointment to tell the story. Therefore, a trade proposal thread is going to, by nature, lean toward this bias.

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02-19-2013, 05:03 AM
  #966
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sort of. I mean just this year. don't do anything to major this year. We had stanley cup champs replaced with rookies and I think it would be better for the team to see what this lineup(hopefully opening day lineup) can do in the playoff. We have rookies in tarasenko, schwartz and basically cole finally playing on a consistent basis. I think it could be huge for there development and especially cole's if he's playing top pairing minutes in the playoffs. I also think this because we probably don't want to do anything major before we get petro, shatty, bergy etc.. all signed first. Then we can for sure see where we are financially. Believe me I absolutely would love to see a giordano/Pietrangelo pairing, but i think it would be best for our teams overall development if we let them play this year and see what happens in the playoffs. who knows maybe we'll get hot at the right time.

I'm basically saying that I doubt we do anything major this year but after we re'sign all our core players, that if there's enough money available I fully expect us to make a splash in either the trade/ free agent market for a LHD.

Edit: I'm not that good at transferring what's goin on in my mind and putting it into writing lol. but i think you'll get what i'm saying now. lol
I see your point. I see arguments for the "maybe next year" strategy. Lay low and just see what may happen, if we get in the playoffs. I also see where we are 2 players away from taking a serious run. We are sending out 8 forwards with 10 points already along with 2 defenseman over 10 points. That is incredible balance. We have some trade chips and depth to get whatever 2 guys it may be. Keep in mind too, the right deal brings those 2 acquired players back for next year as well for another run. I wouldn't be surprised, if the Blues do not take the conservative approach. It is fun to talk trades though....

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02-19-2013, 08:18 AM
  #967
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I'm listening; is the main takeaway that you want to see how this team performs in the playoffs this year to do two things: 1) inform how to pay impending key RFAs on their next deals; and 2) inform mgmt of what are truly holes and what are not?

If so, it's basically a conservative approach, which is defensible.

The more aggressive approach is to say we think we know what the holes already are without needing another round of playoff disappointment to tell the story. Therefore, a trade proposal thread is going to, by nature, lean toward this bias.
Yeah. I just think we still need to grow the rest of our team and then add in the last one or two pieces that puts us over the top. Ijust know that as a budget team we need to be very very careful about who we trade for if we go the aggressive route your talking about.

I'm absolutely for trading to get a LHD. I just don't know who can be realistically picked up for the price were willing to pay and on a small contract at the same time. All i know is signing petro, shatty, berglund etc.. should be more important than trading for a LHD just for this years's playoff run(depends on who we get. I don't see us getting a giordano typ guy just yet because i doubt army wants to deal schwartz and picks right now, and also pick up that contract. with out having our guys signed yet.)

I don't know about you guys. But I'm pretty happy with our forward group. As much as i'd love to see O'reilly in a bluenote, i don't see it happening. I think by now we all know schwartz needs to be playing every night. Just watching him you can see he's getting better and better each game. Also, it's nice to see him and bergy starting to get some chemistry, who knows maybe they'll be on a line together in the long run. I agree with the what everyones saying about steen being more effective as a winger but he's another guy getting better and better each game at a new position. As long as he keeps working on his faceoffs we should be in good shape.

P9- I think we should stick with the conservative plan this year. Sign all our core guys back this offseason. Look at where we stand financially and then from there begin the aggressive plan towards getting a big LHD or Center. Let's say we don't do anything this season and let's say d'ags and nichol are gone next year. Would you be opposed to getting a guy like Ryan Getzlaf who looks like he may be the one to leave anaheim this offseason?

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02-19-2013, 05:52 PM
  #968
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I think the more conservative approach is more likely to be what happens, specifically for the RFA reason. Those contracts are moving parts in the equation.

My guess is Pietrangelo is locked up before season's play is done; Shattenkirk will likely have to wait til after the playoffs but I don't see that guy wanting to go elsewhere and I think he'll sign a good deal before hitting RFA officially. Berglund is interesting because if we all remember he and Oshie came up for their bridge deals at the same time and Berglund signed his 2.1M/2.4M deal pretty quickly bcause he was focused on getting ready for that season. He basically decided that even if he could quibble up a few extra hundred K in the deal, it would delay getting the contract done long enough where it might be a distraction and that wasn't worth it. He figured, correctly, that the real money was in this contract that's upcoming and his performance in those two seasons would be far more impt than fighting (as Oshie did) to get a little more in a deal. As for Stewart, I feel I have the least read on how he'll approach a deal in the offseason. He could be anywhere on the spectrum from "I want to be a part of THIS team with THESE guys and I'll sign a good contract that people will say was a good deal for the team" all the way to "I just had my big rebound year, I need a big contract as a goal scorer, I need to get paid most importantly." Just don't have a feel for how that'll go.

So the conservative approach is likely in reality. Still, a lot of this discussion is "if so-and-so becomes available" and O'Reilly certainly qualifies as that. And he's so perfectly (as a player) a fit into the core of this team that it's very difficult to resist thinking up trade proposals that work for the Blues to get the guy.

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02-19-2013, 06:57 PM
  #969
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I think the more conservative approach is more likely to be what happens, specifically for the RFA reason. Those contracts are moving parts in the equation.

My guess is Pietrangelo is locked up before season's play is done; Shattenkirk will likely have to wait til after the playoffs but I don't see that guy wanting to go elsewhere and I think he'll sign a good deal before hitting RFA officially. Berglund is interesting because if we all remember he and Oshie came up for their bridge deals at the same time and Berglund signed his 2.1M/2.4M deal pretty quickly bcause he was focused on getting ready for that season. He basically decided that even if he could quibble up a few extra hundred K in the deal, it would delay getting the contract done long enough where it might be a distraction and that wasn't worth it. He figured, correctly, that the real money was in this contract that's upcoming and his performance in those two seasons would be far more impt than fighting (as Oshie did) to get a little more in a deal. As for Stewart, I feel I have the least read on how he'll approach a deal in the offseason. He could be anywhere on the spectrum from "I want to be a part of THIS team with THESE guys and I'll sign a good contract that people will say was a good deal for the team" all the way to "I just had my big rebound year, I need a big contract as a goal scorer, I need to get paid most importantly." Just don't have a feel for how that'll go.

So the conservative approach is likely in reality. Still, a lot of this discussion is "if so-and-so becomes available" and O'Reilly certainly qualifies as that. And he's so perfectly (as a player) a fit into the core of this team that it's very difficult to resist thinking up trade proposals that work for the Blues to get the guy.
Yeah but if we acquire O'reilly. who do we get rid of. It's not like were getting rid of mcdonald like you've talked about in other threads and unless d'agostini gets thrown in to the trade. Does that mean we send down schwartz? Well I guess with langenbrunner out and if allen gets sent down, then schwartz will be like what cole was the last two years. I just feel like the Blues want Schwartz to play and keep playing which is why I don't see us making the deal. Unless Mcdonald get's another concussion.

Lines would be: Perron-backes-oshie, Steen- O'reilly-Tarasenko, Mcdonald-berglund- stewart ? obviously you could switch around steen/perron/mcdonald but that's basically what our lines would be. To be honest with you these are kind of giving me a hard-on. But I like I said before I think the organization wants to keep schwartz playing and keep on increasing his development. If we can afford to sign O'reilly to a 5 year deal worth how ever much he wants then i say go for it. The only thing is we need to make absolute sure that we leave enough room to sign, petro, shatty, berglund, stewart, mcdonald, Cole, and possibly Russell/redden.

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02-20-2013, 09:46 AM
  #970
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The Blues really need to find a partner for Alex Pietrangelo.

Ian Cole is getting worse and worse with each game and I don't know why. Bad penalties late in games, bad outlet passes, horrible decisions leading to breakaways, turnovers. He isn't a top pairing d-man right now.

Hopefully Calgary realizes they need to rebuild and they put Mark Giordano on the market.

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02-20-2013, 01:23 PM
  #971
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Just saw this, value of Ryan Miller. 6.2 million cap hit, UFA in 2015. This could be the Goalie to lead the Blues to that Stanley Cup. I'd gladly trade a 2013 1st and Halak for Miller. meh, probably cost too much of course. Thoughts?

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02-20-2013, 01:39 PM
  #972
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Just saw this, value of Ryan Miller. 6.2 million cap hit, UFA in 2015. This could be the Goalie to lead the Blues to that Stanley Cup. I'd gladly trade a 2013 1st and Halak for Miller. meh, probably cost too much of course. Thoughts?
Why?

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02-20-2013, 01:45 PM
  #973
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Why?
Why not? Buffalo's defense is terrible, yet Miller has a decent save % of .915. Yeah, I know we are having issues with some of our Defenseman, but I'll take ours over Buffalo's anytime. Miller would thrive here in St. Louis, that's why.

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02-20-2013, 01:49 PM
  #974
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We would need to be absolutely insane to move our first round pick this year. Even at 30 () we'd be getting a player who'd be talked about in the 12-18 range most years.

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The Blues really need to find a partner for Alex Pietrangelo.

Ian Cole is getting worse and worse with each game and I don't know why. Bad penalties late in games, bad outlet passes, horrible decisions leading to breakaways, turnovers. He isn't a top pairing d-man right now.

Hopefully Calgary realizes they need to rebuild and they put Mark Giordano on the market.
I'm not going to defend Cole, because he hasn't played well in recent games, but not many of our defensemen are getting pass marks at the moment. Pietrangelo included.

We should certainly be testing the market to see what is available when it comes to LHD, but until someone else is brought in, I hope we persist with Cole.

If we could get Després & a 1st for Stewart & a 2nd then I think that could make a lot of sense for us.

Després - Pietrangelo
Cole - Shattenkirk
Jackman - Polák

Not ideal for Hitch not having a real puckmover on the third pairing,and maybe Cole and Jax get switched, but it looks a solid line-up.

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02-20-2013, 01:50 PM
  #975
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Lets give Halak the chance to at least have a healthy playoffs with us before we start doing hypothetical trade scenarios.

On a side note, I'm gonna laugh when ROR doesn't return what HF thinks he will. Not many teams are going to give up a similar asset that is already signed for a RFA that wants a big payday, especially with the cap coming down.

$5 million next season would be $5.5 million this season when the cap is lowered. That's the level that you hope ROR gets to, not the level that he is currently at.

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