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Who are the top 5 U.S.A. born players of all time?

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:48 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I think it would be very presumptuous to think we have any where near enough information to say the Hall founders were wrong. That is my point.

Orr over Wayne? I could be an argument either way.
It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of best players, and Hobey Baker was famous as a guy who helped build the game of hockey in the US and then died in the war. There is absolutely no frame of reference for how good he was - I never heard of any of the players he competed against in the US college scene and I doubt you did either.

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If i played hockey i would easily be a defensman, i mean how can it be that US best five are basically all defenders just for the exception of Modano. I think this board has in some way got dillusional by the fact that it's a lot easier to become a elite defensman, i mean for Mike Modano to be equal to let's say Chelios, must he win art ross and be top 5 multiple times? Isn't that to much to ask, i think Modano is equal to Chelios and thanks to the more competative position he is playing he hasen't had the career of Chelios. I mean let's look at todays player, is Weber really that much better than Zetterberg, Toews etc? By HFboards standard Weber is probably twice as good as Toews etc.
Chelios was recently judged the 10th best defenseman of all time by this board (against players from all countries). Where do you think Modano would rank among forwards? Would he even be top 50?


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02-20-2013, 12:52 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Does Bryan Trottier count? He played for the US in Canada Cup
Was he born in the U.S.?

The answer to that question, combined with the thread title, should help you with your question.

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02-20-2013, 01:12 PM
  #128
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Modo
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02-20-2013, 02:32 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Baker ranting
So are you going to give us a reason he should be 1st or 2nd besides his Hall of Fame induction or what? How about starting with what makes him better than Moose Goheen?

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02-20-2013, 02:52 PM
  #130
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I'm not going to go through every reason why Chelios should rank higher than Modano on an all-time list, since that would take too long. But just to get past this "forwards are disadvantaged compared to defensemen" nonsense:

Chris Chelios Hart trophy finishes: 5th, 7th, 10th

Mike Modano Hart trophy finishes: 7th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 20th

And that's for an award for which all players are eligible, but which is pretty clearly biased in favor of forwards, and for which several of Chelios' best seasons came in a time period where there were less voters and less voting positions so it was much harder to get a placement (had the same voting scheme been in place during Chelios' prime as was when Modano was getting those 10th-20th place finishes, he almost certainly would have had several more at a similar level to Modano's).
Voting. Was every President that got voted in the best President? Lame comparison maybe but you get my point. I figure as long as two players are in the same ball park then it should be a wash. Theres gotta be room for error there. Voting isnt an exact science and its a bunch of guys with a bunch of opinions with different criteria that could change on a daily basis.

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02-20-2013, 05:30 PM
  #131
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Voting. Was every President that got voted in the best President? Lame comparison maybe but you get my point. I figure as long as two players are in the same ball park then it should be a wash. Theres gotta be room for error there. Voting isnt an exact science and its a bunch of guys with a bunch of opinions with different criteria that could change on a daily basis.
Yeah, but as Epsilon said, the Hart Trophy is a forward first trophy. I bet this stems from that there are no best forward trophy available, and since the Norris and Vezina came way back it has moved in that direction. Pretty much guys like peak Orr and Hasek, or somewhat near them had a chance, and even then it was on too fiew occations considering just how dominant they were. Lidström has'nt got one, what does that tell us?

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02-20-2013, 07:31 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
So are you going to give us a reason he should be 1st or 2nd besides his Hall of Fame induction or what? How about starting with what makes him better than Moose Goheen?
Regarding Moose Moheen, a contemporary of Baker's, Baker was selected to the Hall over him. Maybe his 3 national titles at Princeton, maybe his estimated 3 goals and 3 assists per game in college, maybe leading his High School teams to wins over Universities.

Perhaps: Baker had a blend of talent, courage and passion that had not yet been seen on a campus. He was a fearless halfback who brought crowds to their feet whenever he came near the ball; he dominated every game when he switched to play hockey. A dazzling skater, his raw speed seemed to mesmerize fans. When the puck found his stick, a buzz wound through a crowd anticipating a charge up the ice. He was once credited with 30 shots on goal in a game against Yale. As a sophomore, he had 92 points and led Princeton to an unbeaten season. Describing one of his goals, the New York Times wrote, “He carried the puck to every part of the ice surface without being stopped.” But then the Times seemed particularly smitten by the Baker Phenomenon and it chronicled all his accomplishments with colorful prose. Times writers made it clear that they liked every layer of Baker, from the flashy way he moved on the ice to the noble manner with which he conducted himself when the game was over. In their eyes, the blonde bombshell was easily a prototype of the all-American boy.

Wherever Baker was scheduled to play, fans would line up to see him. To them, seeing Baker play hockey was like watching a magic show. They saw him perform acts of athleticism that simply could not be explained, like the time he seemed to run along the top of the boards to escape a defender. He controlled the puck as if it was attached to his stick by an invisible length of rope, as if he was running the-pea-and-the-shell game and the puck was the pea; now you see it, now you don’t.


A legit argument, I submit.

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02-20-2013, 07:46 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Regarding Moose Moheen, a contemporary of Baker's, Baker was selected to the Hall over him. Maybe his 3 national titles at Princeton, maybe his estimated 3 goals and 3 assists per game in college, maybe leading his High School teams to wins over Universities.

Perhaps: Baker had a blend of talent, courage and passion that had not yet been seen on a campus. He was a fearless halfback who brought crowds to their feet whenever he came near the ball; he dominated every game when he switched to play hockey. A dazzling skater, his raw speed seemed to mesmerize fans. When the puck found his stick, a buzz wound through a crowd anticipating a charge up the ice. He was once credited with 30 shots on goal in a game against Yale. As a sophomore, he had 92 points and led Princeton to an unbeaten season. Describing one of his goals, the New York Times wrote, “He carried the puck to every part of the ice surface without being stopped.” But then the Times seemed particularly smitten by the Baker Phenomenon and it chronicled all his accomplishments with colorful prose. Times writers made it clear that they liked every layer of Baker, from the flashy way he moved on the ice to the noble manner with which he conducted himself when the game was over. In their eyes, the blonde bombshell was easily a prototype of the all-American boy.

Wherever Baker was scheduled to play, fans would line up to see him. To them, seeing Baker play hockey was like watching a magic show. They saw him perform acts of athleticism that simply could not be explained, like the time he seemed to run along the top of the boards to escape a defender. He controlled the puck as if it was attached to his stick by an invisible length of rope, as if he was running the-pea-and-the-shell game and the puck was the pea; now you see it, now you don’t.


A legit argument, I submit.
So he was better because he was elected to the Hall of Fame before Goheen? Surely you see how this is just repeating what you said before.

All I'm getting from your underlined is a small bit of substance and a lot of "fluff". Let's take it all at face value, you're saying he was a phenom in college hockey in the 1910s. What makes that impressive? Were they churning out legitimate NHL talent out the time? Was he playing against anyone we care about 100 years later? Why is that more impressive than being a phenom in American amateur hockey at the same time? Which doesn't seem particularly impressive either.

What did 6 points per game mean for college hockey at that time? What did 92 points in a season mean for that league and era?

It seems to be me like at best you can argue he was a big fish in a small pond. Throw in his apparent charisma and heroic death and I smell a guy being seriously overrated in an all-time sense. Much more work needs to be done to establish him as a top 5 American.

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02-20-2013, 08:18 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Regarding Moose Moheen, a contemporary of Baker's, Baker was selected to the Hall over him. Maybe his 3 national titles at Princeton, maybe his estimated 3 goals and 3 assists per game in college, maybe leading his High School teams to wins over Universities.

Perhaps: Baker had a blend of talent, courage and passion that had not yet been seen on a campus. He was a fearless halfback who brought crowds to their feet whenever he came near the ball; he dominated every game when he switched to play hockey. A dazzling skater, his raw speed seemed to mesmerize fans. When the puck found his stick, a buzz wound through a crowd anticipating a charge up the ice. He was once credited with 30 shots on goal in a game against Yale. As a sophomore, he had 92 points and led Princeton to an unbeaten season. Describing one of his goals, the New York Times wrote, “He carried the puck to every part of the ice surface without being stopped.” But then the Times seemed particularly smitten by the Baker Phenomenon and it chronicled all his accomplishments with colorful prose. Times writers made it clear that they liked every layer of Baker, from the flashy way he moved on the ice to the noble manner with which he conducted himself when the game was over. In their eyes, the blonde bombshell was easily a prototype of the all-American boy.

Wherever Baker was scheduled to play, fans would line up to see him. To them, seeing Baker play hockey was like watching a magic show. They saw him perform acts of athleticism that simply could not be explained, like the time he seemed to run along the top of the boards to escape a defender. He controlled the puck as if it was attached to his stick by an invisible length of rope, as if he was running the-pea-and-the-shell game and the puck was the pea; now you see it, now you don’t.


A legit argument, I submit.
My friend, I dig your adherence to old school players. As I have said, I support and probably prop up older generation players more than I should. But...

What you just posted plays into exactly what I spoke of; fluff and popularity. He was a mega popular athlete in many sports which doesn't necessarily translate into actual being the best. He never played pro hockey, and he played hockey in New Jersey in the 1910s against other Ivy League teams.

I have read the 3 goals and 3 assists per game story. However, there is no evidence that is true as they did not keep any stats back then.

He played 3 years at Princeton, his senior year is the only point total we have and he had 12 points in 11 games. Does that average 6 points a game even if you stretch it out into 3 seasons? Then lets factor in his AAHL days which WAS amateur hockey and his totals that we know are 15 games and 26 points in 2 seasons.

Come on man...

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02-20-2013, 08:41 PM
  #135
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I assume, maybe I shouldn't, that you consider Cyclone Taylor one of the early greats. Hobey and Moose Goheen were offered contracts similar to what Cyclone was getting. Is that part of the pomp and circumstance that has the "myth" of Hobey Baker propelling him to Hall of Fame status?

So, salaries offered were similar, both were inducted into the Hall of Fame in the first ever induction. Why is it so inconceivable, to some, that Hobey Baker was not legit? Because he chose something other than pro hockey?

The argument that he played 100 years ago aginst guys nobody ever heard of is ridiculous. If you knew your hockey history, you would have heard of some of these players. To think that some of you think that more people will give a darn about a Patty LaFontaine or JR in 100 years from now is just crazy.

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02-20-2013, 08:44 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I assume, maybe I shouldn't, that you consider Cyclone Taylor one of the early greats. Hobey and Moose Goheen were offered contracts similar to what Cyclone was getting. Is that part of the pomp and circumstance that has the "myth" of Hobey Baker propelling him to Hall of Fame status?

So, salaries offered were similar, both were inducted into the Hall of Fame in the first ever induction. Why is it so inconceivable, to some, that Hobey Baker was not legit? Because he chose something other than pro hockey?

The argument that he played 100 years ago aginst guys nobody ever heard of is ridiculous. If you knew your hockey history, you would have heard of some of these players. To think that some of you think that more people will give a darn about a Patty LaFontaine or JR in 100 years from now is just crazy.
So name the guys that Hobey Baker played against. Bonus points if you don't have to look it up.

I had never heard that Hobey and Goheen were offered contracts similar to what Taylor was making. When was this?

Also, not that it's a big deal, but Cyclone Taylor was not inducted until 1947. All the 1945 inductees were deceased at the time of induction.

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02-20-2013, 08:53 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So name the guys that Hobey Baker played against. Bonus points if you don't have to look it up.

I had never heard that Hobey and Goheen were offered contracts similar to what Taylor was making. When was this?

Also, not that it's a big deal, but Cyclone Taylor was not inducted until 1947. All the 1945 inductees were deceased at the time of induction.
The contracts were offered Nov. 12 1919, just kidding. Do your own homework if you wish to make informed decisions. If you wish to base history on what happened since Gretz laced 'em up, fine by me.

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02-20-2013, 08:54 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I assume, maybe I shouldn't, that you consider Cyclone Taylor one of the early greats. Hobey and Moose Goheen were offered contracts similar to what Cyclone was getting. Is that part of the pomp and circumstance that has the "myth" of Hobey Baker propelling him to Hall of Fame status?

So, salaries offered were similar, both were inducted into the Hall of Fame in the first ever induction. Why is it so inconceivable, to some, that Hobey Baker was not legit? Because he chose something other than pro hockey?

The argument that he played 100 years ago aginst guys nobody ever heard of is ridiculous. If you knew your hockey history, you would have heard of some of these players. To think that some of you think that more people will give a darn about a Patty LaFontaine or JR in 100 years from now is just crazy.
Citing Cyclone Taylor makes the argument for me. I care that he was a phenom against other all-time greats who are rightfully celebrated 100 years later, not American students who are rightfully not celebrated 100 years later. At least in Goheen's case he was playing amateurs in the substandard American leagues.

So because they're in the Hall of Fame and you're saying they got offered similar money to Taylor's, without any citation - whose salaries are almost as famous as he is - I should consider Baker 1st or 2nd?

No one's saying Baker wasn't extraordinary talented or "legit". I'm saying you're grossly overrating him placing him as a top 5 American, unless you can help me get past all those reservations, which seem just as legit.

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02-20-2013, 08:55 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
The contracts were offered Nov. 12 1919, just kidding. Do your own homework if you wish to make informed decisions. If you wish to base history on what happened since Gretz laced 'em up, fine by me.
In other words, you can't name them either.

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02-20-2013, 08:57 PM
  #140
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If i played hockey i would easily be a defensman, i mean how can it be that US best five are basically all defenders just for the exception of Modano. I think this board has in some way got dillusional by the fact that it's a lot easier to become a elite defensman, i mean for Mike Modano to be equal to let's say Chelios, must he win art ross and be top 5 multiple times? Isn't that to much to ask, i think Modano is equal to Chelios
And your credibility score hits zero. Chelios when Modano entered the league was an elite defenseman and one of the league's best players. Which is also what he was during Modano's peak.

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and thanks to the more competative position he is playing he hasen't had the career of Chelios. I mean let's look at todays player, is Weber really that much better than Zetterberg, Toews etc? By HFboards standard Weber is probably twice as good as Toews etc.
Chelios was named the best player at his position three times ahead of a prime Ray Bourque and was a dominant force for two-plus decades.

Modano was never named the best player at his position, and only was named second once. He had a decent peak, a short prime, and never seriously challenged for the title of "best center in the NHL". Even in 99-00, when he was named to the second team, he only was able to achieve that because Joe Sakic missed 22 games (Sakic scored 81 points in 60 games and tied Modano (77GP) to finish 8th overall and lead all centers, while runaway Selke winner Yzerman scored 79 in 78 to finish 10th. Interestingly, Sakic also beat Modano in Selke voting; Modano literally was named purely because Sakic missed games.

This is like arguing that Alexei Zhamnov has had a better career than Scott Stevens. It's an insane argument to start with. The easy counterpoint to "Modano is better than Chelios" is "Robocop and Chuck Norris riding unicorns in formation."

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02-20-2013, 09:02 PM
  #141
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In other words, you can't name them either.
And the CBA that spanned a decade and 4-5 different leagues made sure everyone was paid the same amount

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02-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #142
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I assume, maybe I shouldn't, that you consider Cyclone Taylor one of the early greats. Hobey and Moose Goheen were offered contracts similar to what Cyclone was getting.
Shawn Horcoff now makes approximately ten times what Steve Yzerman made in the 88-89 season when he put up 155 points.

Does Horcoff rank higher on the all-time Canadians list?

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02-20-2013, 09:10 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Shawn Horcoff now makes approximately ten times what Steve Yzerman made in the 88-89 season when he put up 155 points.

Does Horcoff rank higher on the all-time Canadians list?
Great comparison and contribution..

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02-20-2013, 09:13 PM
  #144
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So because they're in the Hall of Fame and you're saying they got offered similar money to Taylor's, without any citation - whose salaries are almost as famous as he is - I should consider Baker 1st or 2nd?

.
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
And the CBA that spanned a decade and 4-5 different leagues made sure everyone was paid the same amount
Here's your citation: Falla, Jack (2008), Open Ice: Reflections and Confessions of a Hockey Lifer, Mississauga, Ontario: John Wiley & Sons Canada, ISBN 978-0-4701530-5-5

...and the salaries offered then were certainly more indicative of a player's ability than they are now. It was truly supply and demand back then, no other hindrances came into play.

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02-20-2013, 09:20 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Here's your citation: Falla, Jack (2008), Open Ice: Reflections and Confessions of a Hockey Lifer, Mississauga, Ontario: John Wiley & Sons Canada, ISBN 978-0-4701530-5-5

...and the salaries offered then were certainly more indicative of a player's ability than they are now. It was truly supply and demand back then, no other hindrances came into play.
I assume this is from wikipedia as I'd imagine you'd just tell us what the book says if you own it. Is the $20,000 over 3 years what Taylor was paid?

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02-20-2013, 09:27 PM
  #146
Marotte Marauder
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I assume this is from wikipedia as I'd imagine you'd just tell us what the book says if you own it. Is the $20,000 over 3 years what Taylor was paid?
I've only seen 2 salary references linked to Cyclone. One for $3,000 and the famous $5,250 for a season. Additionally, Cyclone was said to be a shrewd negotiator while Hobey really didn't want anything to do with life as a professional athlete.

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02-20-2013, 09:54 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Great comparison and contribution..
Ok, how about this one.

When Eric Lindros signed his first contract with the Philadelphia Flyers, he was instantly the highest-paid hockey player in the history of the world.

Does that mean he was better than Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe?

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02-20-2013, 10:19 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
I think it would be very presumptuous to think we have any where near enough information to say the Hall founders were wrong. That is my point.
I also think that you might be a little presumptuous in saying that those electors were only thinking of Hobey the hockey player as well.

With the information that we do have, why throw him on top of the pile, instead of thinking it through and maybe taking a reasoned guess as to the top 5 guys of all time?

There really is no information that Hobey would be a star in the existing leagues of the day period.

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02-20-2013, 10:28 PM
  #149
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You mean that league where in 1943 (time of the selection) 4 of the 6 teams were already US based with hockey played across the Northern 3rd of the country?
Yes 4 of the 6 teams were based in the states, for business and commercial reasons.


Here is a list of the 36, yes 36 players who were born in the US that played in the NHL from 33-43
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Here is the list of Candian born players over the same time period

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Hockey was Canada's game back then pretty plain and simple.

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02-20-2013, 11:34 PM
  #150
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Probably someone has said it, but there are several other american HHoF-players, why would Baker be on top if we cant find more elite proofs in his favor when Chelios, Leetch, Brimsek, Langway, Howe, Modano and Lafontaine has plenty against the top level of opposition? What was the top level of opposition when Baker played anyways, which he of course did'nt compete against?

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