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Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:43 AM
  #301
Roadrage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
IMO, this is a huge obstacle to the long term viability of any Seattle team. Most, if not all, non traditional American markets rely on sweetheart arena deals to indirectly subsidize their operations. From what I understand, the group that wants to build the Seattle arena and own the NBA team doesn't want any part of nhl ownership. Any potential Seattle nhl ownership will not share in any ancillary arena revenue, and will actually be expected to pay fair value rent to the NBA/arena owners. In a saturated (NBA, NFL, MLB, MLS etc), non traditional American market, this is just another disaster waiting to happen. Having said that, however, I have no doubt that bettman will be able to find some sucker to own a team in the market.
Wouldn't that be similar to the Atlanta Thrashers situation not too long before they relocated?

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02-20-2013, 03:02 AM
  #302
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Question:

Let's say that the NHL decided to relocate the Coyotes next season and made an announcement before the end of the regular season that the team is relocating to Quebec City for the 2013-14 season, for example, and that the sale/move will be approved on June 21st or whenever is the BOG meeting/draft. What does happen if the Coyotes win the Stanley Cup this season? Would the move be postponed to see if the cup win might generate more interest?

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3t2bgz/

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02-20-2013, 03:03 AM
  #303
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I believe that the Coyotes will be most likely relocated to QC over the summer. Seattle is not in the game right now. It's not just their hockey-unfriendly temporary facility; unlike QC they do not have a guaranteed permanent facility. Before Seattle and King County pay for arena construction to begin there are 2 pre-conditions...
  1. Hansen needs to get his hands on an NBA team. Minority shareholders' bankruptcy trustee is insisting on right of first refusal in the Sacramento purchase and could tie it up in court.
  2. The environmental assessment has to pass favourably. While it's expected, it's not guaranteed.
The NHL would be taking a big risk moving into Seattle "on spec" hoping that the above 2 items happen. The best strategy right now is...
  • Coyotes to QC this summer
  • review the financial health of all franchises, and if there aren't any major problems, expand in a few years
If things go OK in Seattle, there'll be a new arena waiting for the NHL come the next expansion. The NHL's problem with Phoenix requires a solution NOW, and Seattle is not there yet.

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02-20-2013, 03:06 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Roadrage View Post
Wouldn't that be similar to the Atlanta Thrashers situation not too long before they relocated?
Atlanta Spirit owns Philips Arena, the NBA Atlanta Hawks and previously owned the Thrashers. At least from one viewpoint, ownership, I believe it would not be similar to Seattle's potential NHL/NBA situation.


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Old
02-20-2013, 06:56 AM
  #305
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Note to self - Cease attempts at being vague/cryptic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
M4B - I am not sure to what you are referring here. Is BSC somehow going to get involved with the coyotes and the CoG?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
LeFevre seems like a perfect tire kicker for Glendale.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=VuTT...ed=0CDQQ6AEwAQ
To clarify, this is a rumor. Clark, on her Unfiltered page, made a reference to Beacon Sports Capital yesterday and the speculation was that Skeete and the City have enlisted BSC to be the "Negotiator" with potential tire kickers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
If their website is to be believed, they already are
XX - That should be "were". However, what's confusing to me is... She mentioned the current BSC involvement as "rumored" but also mentioned that BSC was also rumored to be "involved" of the Coyotes/Moyes Bankruptcy. IIRC, their involvement was pre-Bankruptcy, hence the "were". But also, wasn't Moyes attorney given permission to grill Reinsdorf and Kaites about their attachments to Beasley, BSC, and Michael Reinsdorf's IFG? Didn't he contend there was collusion?

So the "were" involved, XX, comes from the Coyotes finances study done pre-Bankruptcy by BSC and why it's on their site under, uh, accomplishments.

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Old
02-20-2013, 07:26 AM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Omnimaga View Post
Question:

Let's say that the NHL decided to relocate the Coyotes next season and made an announcement before the end of the regular season that the team is relocating to Quebec City for the 2013-14 season, for example, and that the sale/move will be approved on June 21st or whenever is the BOG meeting/draft. What does happen if the Coyotes win the Stanley Cup this season? Would the move be postponed to see if the cup win might generate more interest?

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3t2bgz/
Once it has been decided to move the team and sold to new ownership, what the Coyotes do or do not do on the ice has no bearing what so ever.

Just to note: there was a 3rd party study done quite a while ago that suggested the Coyotes would have to sell out every regular season game and go very deep in the playoffs EVERY season, just to even suggest a chance at breaking even financially.

Look at it this way... What the Coyotes have done on the ice for the last 4 seasons ( being quite successful ) has had zero bearing on selling this team. One trip to the Cup isn't going to change anything.

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Old
02-20-2013, 08:07 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
This may be a late response, but your opinion is noted and rejected. The NHL decided to make the play of purchasing the team from BK and holding on as long as they have. To insinuate any "True Cost" since the BK is more folly than stating a 170 mil asking price.

If I buy a used truck for 20k, then subsequently put in another 5k in repairs does it matter if the actual market value is 15k? I consciously paid too much to begin with, then willingly added to my net cost with the repairs. Just because I really really really want to get out net neutral, doesn't change the fact I'm 10k over market value.

The only way this equation worked in the past was because the COG was willing to kick in for the negative equity. Since they are no longer a willing partner in this plan there is only one choice. Take the truck to a market that is willing to pay 25k.
cool, i didnt know we were allowed to note and then reject an opinion. i shall have to remember that.

fwiw, yes, you were late in responding and had you read the follow-ups, you would have seen that i said nothing about value, let alone market value. i said the nhl can ask whatever it wants for this team. that's what people call an "asking price" and as you graciously point out, it may or may not have anything to do with "value". my point ... and you may want to go back and read the exchange again ... was that the nhl may very well have intentionally priced this team well above any serious local purchasers wherewithal and thus priced it so as not to sell.

im reminded of a home in my old neighbourhood that was listed for well over a million dollars. "whaaat?!" we all wondered, knowing it was severely over-priced, "it's beautiful, but he's never gonna get that for it." hmmm, turns out he wasn't actually trying to sell it, his wife had left him and her counsel was advising they sell the house. still deeply in love with her, he went ahead and listed it, but at an asking price so high he knew it wouldn't sell. of course, it never sold. not being close friends, I have no idea whatever happened to them. but the lesson learned was that sometimes things are priced not to sell.

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Old
02-20-2013, 10:59 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
LeFevre seems like a perfect tire kicker for Glendale.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=VuTT...ed=0CDQQ6AEwAQ
Never saw that exerpt before Blues, thanks. I added it to my repository

To me, I know this seems like it's going OT, but I see some similarities here. Got this one for you, and anyone else, that is (IMO) the mother of all articles regarding the first 9 years of the Lightning, David LeFevre, and his cross-over into Beacon. Beacon "assisted" in a $7M bridge loan for operating costs for the Bolts back in 98, among "other" things.

From SI - 1998 - Killion's favorite (BTW - Where the Hell has he been lately?)

Quote:
Esposito and Tak Kojima, a former investor in the Lightning, tell similar stories of last-minute cancellations by Okubo. Tony Guanci, a consultant for the Las Vegas-based Maloof family, which considered buying Tampa Bay last summer and later purchased the NBA Sacramento Kings, says jokingly, "Not only did I never speak to Okubo in our eight months [of pursuing Tampa Bay], I began to wonder if he exists."

Why the shroud of secrecy? In a lawsuit filed last year in Tampa federal court by Ganis against Lightning ownership, management and former team lawyer David LeFevre, Okubo is described by one potential Japanese source of financing for Tampa Bay as a "gangster." In Japan there is a mob organization called yakuza, which has been known to enter the sports world, most notably to launder money through such enterprises as golf courses. Stephen Wayne, the New York lawyer who has handled Tampa Bay's search for a buyer for the last 14 months, contends that any implication that Okubo is involved in organized crime is "entirely unfounded." Adds Phillips, "We deny the charge tenfold."
Further...

Quote:
Oto says that Kokusai Green never wanted more than a limited interest in the Lightning but that because of Tampa Bay's financial woes—in June 1991, the team missed a $22.5 million franchise installment payment—the company felt obliged to take a majority stake in September 1991. A former Lightning executive, however, says Kokusai Green and LeFevre plotted to grab control of the franchise almost from the time Kokusai Green became a limited partner. "We have copies of the letters that LeFevre sent to John Ziegler offering to step over us and go directly into [majority] ownership of the franchise," the executive says. "He wrote those letters while he was representing us." (LeFevre says he doesn't remember those letters and that he worked only for Kokusai Green.)

LeFevre's efforts soon paid off. At a September 1991 meeting, the NHL's Board of Governors approved Kokusai Green as the franchise's new majority owner, replacing Esposito's group. McMullen says that at this meeting he warned other NHL owners not to trust LeFevre but that his words fell on deaf ears. "There was no way that LeFevre should have been awarded a franchise," says McMullen. "That is when I came to the conclusion we had to get a new [league] president."
and one little last bit... sorry for the bandwidth usage but the article's 4 1/2 pages long and I know some here are "lazy"

Quote:
In October 1995, at least three of Tampa Bay's six limited partners wrote angry letters to Bettman just days after Kokusai Green issued an "emergency" cash call to cover Lightning operating expenses. The partners who sent letters—Kojima; Andrew Williams of Equity Resource Group, based in Indian River County, Fla.; and the John Chase family, from Boston—charged Kokusai Green and LeFevre with "self-dealing" and with a transparent attempt to drive the limited partners from the team.

The cash call and its terms—$885,000 per partnership unit, to be paid within 30 days or the limited partner would forfeit any previous investment—were within Kokusai Green's rights as controlling partner. But when the limited partners got a look at the Lightning's finances as a condition of the cash call, they were surprised. In addition to showing that Okubo owned Kokusai Green, the records revealed that LeFevre was owed a $2 million fee for securing the arena financing in Ganis's stead and that Kokusai Green had been investing in the Lightning in the form of loans rather than equity, which allowed Kokusai Green to charge Tampa Bay as much as 12% interest.
...

This is a story in which hardly anyone escapes unscathed. Esposito says he ruined a marriage and risked his shirt to land an NHL club for Tampa. "There were so many times I was scared s—less," he says. Oto and Phillips say they've tried to do the honorable thing, only to find their motives questioned. Ganis says he has lost millions. When Lou Lamoriello, the general manager of the Devils, was walking to the Ice Palace on Feb. 26 for a game against the Lightning, LeFevre pulled up alongside him in a car and offered him a ride. Seven months after resigning from the Lightning when Oto accused him of lying about his involvement in the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' stadium deal while he was still on the Lighting payroll, LeFevre is trying to pull off his biggest power play yet. "I'm working on buying the Lightning and the arena," he told Lamoriello. Says McMullen, "He's got nine lives."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...34/1/index.htm

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:14 AM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Once it has been decided to move the team and sold to new ownership, what the Coyotes do or do not do on the ice has no bearing what so ever.

Just to note: there was a 3rd party study done quite a while ago that suggested the Coyotes would have to sell out every regular season game and go very deep in the playoffs EVERY season, just to even suggest a chance at breaking even financially.

Look at it this way... What the Coyotes have done on the ice for the last 4 seasons ( being quite successful ) has had zero bearing on selling this team. One trip to the Cup isn't going to change anything.
I believe it but I am pretty sure that would mean they did the study using the current business model. I don't think many teams make money. If improvements in the way they do business were made, I can see them making a profit.

Maybe starting from Square 1 would help but I think there is little time to make improvements at this point.

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Old
02-20-2013, 02:53 PM
  #310
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Didn't the Nordiques have a deep playoff run the year they relocated to Denver? Then in Denver turn around and win the cup the first year there....

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02-20-2013, 03:21 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
Didn't the Nordiques have a deep playoff run the year they relocated to Denver? Then in Denver turn around and win the cup the first year there....
They were the #1 seed in the East and lost to the Rangers in the first round of the playoffs.

When the Devils were on their way to winning in 1995, I can remember rumors floating around saying they would be moving to Nashville at the end of the year.

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02-20-2013, 03:29 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
They were the #1 seed in the East and lost to the Rangers in the first round of the playoffs.

When the Devils were on their way to winning in 1995, I can remember rumors floating around saying they would be moving to Nashville at the end of the year.
Joe Sakic's goal was good, **** you Kerry Fraser

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02-20-2013, 03:33 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
Joe Sakic's goal was good, **** you Kerry Fraser
Haha, NOW I remember!!

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Old
02-20-2013, 04:15 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
Haha, NOW I remember!!
In 1995 it was Andy Van Hellemond at the MSG who disallowed a goal by Sakic, that cost us the win. Kovalev did a perfect theatrical performance of a Spanish soccer player on that play.

Fraser's gaffe happened in 1987 at the Forum.

Anyway both goals were good!

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02-20-2013, 04:16 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
Didn't the Nordiques have a deep playoff run the year they relocated to Denver? Then in Denver turn around and win the cup the first year there....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
They were the #1 seed in the East and lost to the Rangers in the first round of the playoffs.

Given the Nords history, that technically could be considered a "deep run" as far as they were concerned.

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Old
02-20-2013, 04:58 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
Joe Sakic's goal was good, **** you Kerry Fraser
I'll 2nd that but for other reasons, like Gretzky high sticking Gilmour. **** you Kerry Fraser. Fittingly I see he is a spokesperson for the CNIB. How appropriate

edit to Add: 2 inches of snow in Marana today. WTF! Move the Yotes further south to the more conducive hockey conditions.


Last edited by Confucius: 02-20-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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02-20-2013, 05:35 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
They were the #1 seed in the East and lost to the Rangers in the first round of the playoffs.

When the Devils were on their way to winning in 1995, I can remember rumors floating around saying they would be moving to Nashville at the end of the year.
It was more than a rumor. They had an offer and New Jersey had to redo the lease to get close enough to make McMullen stay.

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Old
02-20-2013, 07:28 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Roadrage View Post
Wouldn't that be similar to the Atlanta Thrashers situation not too long before they relocated?
It's similar in that Atlanta is a saturated, non traditional southern market. The thrashers were part of the Atlanta Spirit group, which also owns the NBA Hawks, and the arena, which allowed the Spirit group to profit from other arena events. The Spirit ultimately decided that the massive operational losses of the thrashers dwarfed any benefit that was derived from having the thrashers occupy 41 home dates per year at the arena.

The thrashers were sold to True North for $170 million, $60M of which was a relocation fee, which meant that the Spirit group recieved $110M of the sale price. They were extremely fortunate to have received that $110M. They're lucky that one of bettman's most important mandates is to perpetuate the illusion that some of his southern franchises actually have a monetary value. Bettman could have justifiedly said that the thrashers in Atlanta are worth nothing, and that the $170M sale would be for $0, plus a $170M relocation fee (which all goes to the nhl). That may seem extreme to some of you, but why would anyone think that a team that likely loses $10M - $20M per year is worth anything? In reality, they're not worth a dime in Atlanta. However, it would look very bad on bettman and his two bit league if one of it's teams sold for $0.

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02-20-2013, 07:46 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by IceAce View Post
Given the Nords history, that technically could be considered a "deep run" as far as they were concerned.
Actually they played in the conference final against the Islanders in 1982..

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Old
02-20-2013, 08:39 PM
  #320
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Is Mayor Weiers serious?

From Paul Giblin's Twitter account (Feb 19)

Mayor Weiers says a 20-year management deal for Jobing.com Arena is too long for Coyotes bidders. Will bidders settle for less?

No other article following his 'tweet' from Tuesday's council meeting.

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02-20-2013, 08:41 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Is Mayor Weiers serious?

From Paul Giblin's Twitter account (Feb 19)

Mayor Weiers says a 20-year management deal for Jobing.com Arena is too long for Coyotes bidders. Will bidders settle for less?

No other article following his 'tweet' from Tuesday's council meeting.
LMAO, Hey now!!

OK 3 year deal for 100 million fair all around.

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Old
02-20-2013, 08:46 PM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Is Mayor Weiers serious?

From Paul Giblin's Twitter account (Feb 19)

Mayor Weiers says a 20-year management deal for Jobing.com Arena is too long for Coyotes bidders. Will bidders settle for less?

No other article following his 'tweet' from Tuesday's council meeting.
It may actually make sense with a 20 year contract being too long for Coyotes bidders. If the city's thoughts on an AMF say in the 6-8 million per year range. I can't see any prospective owner wanting to be tied down that long.

If someone is willing to work with a shorter lease for a series of out clauses then there's a possibility.

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02-20-2013, 08:51 PM
  #323
Llama19
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
It may actually make sense with a 20 year contract being too long for Coyotes bidders. If the city's thoughts on an AMF say in the 6-8 million per year range. I can't see any prospective owner wanting to be tied down that long.

If someone is willing to work with a shorter lease for a series of out clauses then there's a possibility.
The current/Jamison lease at Jobing.com was until 2033.

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02-20-2013, 08:56 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
The current/Jamison lease at Jobing.com was until 2033.
At an average of 15 mil/year to boot. With the new council not going to offer anywhere near that amount, a 20 year lease won't fly with any tire kicker IMO.

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02-20-2013, 09:00 PM
  #325
Llama19
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
At an average of 15 mil/year to boot. With the new council not going to offer anywhere near that amount, a 20 year lease won't fly with any tire kicker IMO.
And, this is all we have from these tire kickers...


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