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Leafs/Oilers trade proposal

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:20 PM
  #101
The Podium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
What??

Gagner is worse than Connolly? Get out of here. Wow talk about homerism. Gagner has more points than any Leafs player. Yet he would not be good enough to be In your top 4. Get out of here. Wow just wow. Go watch some more hockey is my advice to anybody that thinks along these lines
Although the comment was ridiculous, its true that Gagner just wouldnt fit in Toronto. Leafs have 3 capable 2nd line centers right now. Carlyles system is highly dependent on possession which is why face-offs are extremely important to the Leafs. Grabovski and bozak are both well over 50% and Kadri has been in that range for the last 5-10 games. In addition, Bozak is paired with Kessel to add some defence to that line since both he and Lupul are defensively incompetent, removing Bozak and replacing him with Gagner would result in a negative GF-GA... Although Gager is the better offensive player, although Gagner is younger and in a better position in relation to contract, Gagner just isnt a fit, isnt an upgrade, and isnt worth giving up Gardiner.

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02-20-2013, 02:25 PM
  #102
alphahelix
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Although the comment was ridiculous, its true that Gagner just wouldnt fit in Toronto. Leafs have 3 capable 2nd line centers right now. Carlyles system is highly dependent on possession which is why face-offs are extremely important to the Leafs. Grabovski and bozak are both well over 50% and Kadri has been in that range for the last 5-10 games. In addition, Bozak is paired with Kessel to add some defence to that line since both he and Lupul are defensively incompetent, removing Bozak and replacing him with Gagner would result in a negative GF-GA... Although Gager is the better offensive player, although Gagner is younger and in a better position in relation to contract, Gagner just isnt a fit, isnt an upgrade, and isnt worth giving up Gardiner.
This is the best articulated argument from the Leafs side, but it remains somewhat flawed. Why would Gagner, a guy who pushes the river (CORSIREL, SOG for and against, and generates better zone transitions) be worse in GF/GA on that line? Surely they would score more goals, 3 creative players together - the pivot always being a key position for offense and playmaking. Why would they be scored against more often? They will spend more time in the offensive zone with Gagner on the line. He is a good transition player and the best defense is a good offense. Not that he is a slouch defensively, there are no black marks in terms of his awareness, positioning, etc. Not a great PK option due to size, granted, but he shares this in common with Bozak (who he is bigger than). Face offs don't always translate into time on possession - a quality forechecker, cycler, defensive-offensive transition player can make up for a few seconds off the dot.

Now, ultimately, the judgement that it wouldn't be worth giving up Gardiner for the upgrade is totally valid and based on an opinion as to just how much Gagner would improve the C position. It is totally fair for a Leafs fan to make that judgement in this situation and I might say the same thing. I'm just here to get Gagner his just dues

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02-20-2013, 03:08 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
Gagner is better than any centre the Leafs have.

I find it so hilarious that every non Leafs players like Gagner have no value yet their fans think they will be trading MacArthur, Gunnarson, Grabovski for 1st rd picks this year or players like RoR or Perry
Not really. He would be in the discussion but he's by no means heads and shoulders above any Leaf centre.

He's played 16 good games thus far this season. 16 good games does not make a career and does not change the past five years where he has yet to put 50 points or 20 goals in an NHL season.

I understand that he is only 23, that he could be breaking out, but he's also been on hot streaks before. No GM is going to value Gagner any differently until he proves himself over the course of an entire season.

It is those question marks, plus the fact that he doesn't offer an improvement on what the Leafs already have, that makes any trade of Gagner to Toronto pointless. We don't need him, we don't particularly want him, and we laugh our collective ***** off when Oilers fans ask for the likes of Jake Gardiner in return.

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02-20-2013, 03:35 PM
  #104
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When people say "If Bozak played with guys like Eberle, Hall, Nugent-Hopkins he would put up numbers like Gagner", but they also say he has good chemistry with Kessel, so those "unproven" young guys are just as good as an all star? Also for those who say Bozak is bigger, he is taller, but weighs less. Gagner also put up 40+ points playing with Cogliano and Nilsson, a couple bags of trash so don't just say its because he is playing with superstars now. I don't understand why Leafs fans over value Gardiner so much, the guy will never get off IR, he has a terrible case of Bieber Fever.

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Old
02-20-2013, 04:12 PM
  #105
MakeTheIronSing
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so the leafs trade their best YOUNG (he's 22) puck moving dman and tyler bozak...

for a more expensive tyler bozak and somewhere around 45th overall pick

tyler bozak and a 2nd round pick
for
sam gagner and justin schultz

well that was easy

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Old
02-20-2013, 04:13 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DJcheesyB View Post
I don't understand why Leafs fans over value Gardiner so much, the guy will never get off IR
Gardiner is already off IR.

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Old
02-20-2013, 04:25 PM
  #107
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This is turning more into a pissing contest than it is of trade discusions.

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02-20-2013, 05:08 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
They could have at least said "Gagner was drafted 3rd overall for a reason"

Oilers want to get bigger. Bozak is 6'1 and somewhat physical.

Deal should just be Bozak (+) for Gagner (+) depending how everyone sees it. Leafs would have to add imo since Gagner is pretty consistent at reaching the 40+ point plateau. Wouldn't be Gardiner, though.
Honestly.... no it shouldn't. The Leafs can't afford to lose size or faceoff ability on Kessel's line. If it were, a guy like Tim Connolly would've stood a chance to get some playing time here.

Reality is... Toronto should prefer Bozak to Gagner and Edmonton should prefer Gagner to Bozak. There's ZERO reason for either of these players to be involved in a deal that sees the other one going back. Just take both players out of the deal, and both teams are likely going to be happier.

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02-20-2013, 05:16 PM
  #109
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There's ZERO reason for either of these teams to be involved in a deal with each other. Just take both teams out of the deal, and the fans are likely going to be happier.

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:22 PM
  #110
Pekka Rinne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Edmonton = Worst group of centres in the 13/14 season.
A Leafs fan chirping about centers?

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:25 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
This is turning more into a pissing contest than it is of trade discusions.
Yup. I hate threads like these. Why can't both teams just accept that Gagner and Bozak are both great players for their respected team? That being said, Gagner has much more offensive potential than Bozak, but Bozak plays a more well rounded game. Gagner is two years younger though, so he still has lots of time to work and improve on the defensive side of his game...That is why I feel Gagner will be the "better" player out of the two. Higher upside.

Ops proposal gets brutal when he adds Gardiner to the mix, and the irrelevant second rounder. Im sure a better proposal would've been a Gardinder for Gagner straight up, in which I have a feeling both teams wouldve declined anyways. Overall, bad proposal for Toronto.

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:37 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by iCanada View Post
Really?

Bozak would be leading the Edmonton Oilers in scoring? Bozak would make Hall look like our best player, then when that line is broken up would make Hemsky look like our best player?

Give me a break. Gagner is better offensively, he goes to the hard areas more, he hits more, he fights more. Gagner is younger, faster, and bigger than Bozak. Gagner is also under team control longer than Bozak, AND has played more games in the NHL.

Gagner has been the better player his whole life, and is four years younger.

The Anti-Gagner stigma has to stop, Gagner is better, and will continue to. In terms of value, Gagner and Bozak shouldn't be close in any sane persons mind.
Now their not even close in valueoilers always pick 1st overall for a reason.

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:41 PM
  #113
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pekka Rinne View Post
A Leafs fan chirping about centers?
Simply clarifying a statement made by somebody else.

If Edmonton - Gagner + Bozak is the worst group of centres in the NHL, then Edmonton has the worst group of centres in the NHL.

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Goodman View Post
i wouldn't even trade bozak for gagner straight up.
Typical TO fan, a 23 yr old centreman for an UFA centreman and they say no. Gagner is improving in the circle and playing defense and his points are still getting up.

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:50 PM
  #115
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Typical TO fan, a 23 yr old centreman for an UFA centreman and they say no. Gagner is improving in the circle and playing defense and his points are still getting up.
That 23 year old centreman has played close to 400 NHL games.... chances are, he's done developing. He's also owed a $3.2m qualifying offer.

That UFA centreman has excellent chemistry with our #1 winger, has played just over 200 games, and should be no problem to resign, considering his chemistry with our #1 winger and a role that he's unlikely to get anywhere else.

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:54 PM
  #116
Atomos2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Typical TO fan, a 23 yr old centreman for an UFA centreman and they say no. Gagner is improving in the circle and playing defense and his points are still getting up.
Aww...he's improving. That's nice.

Bozak might have low trade value to the league, but if you watch him on the leafs, he's basically everything. On the powerplay, on the penalty kill, on when we need another centre for a d zone faceoff, on when there's a 5on3 penalty kill, on in the last minutes of the game. This guy is one of the main guys Carlyle trusts for every occasion. If you take him out, you better find a guy Carlyle likes and can depend on for everything I described above.

Is Gagner the guy who can do this?

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Old
02-20-2013, 05:55 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by 14eberle View Post
hahaha you kidding right?? what bozak had last season as a 25 year old player, gagner had in his first season as a 18 year old! get over your team honestly, i agree the trade is a little unreasonable, but you can't say you won't trade bozak for Gagner! I would make it Gagner + 1st + a prospect like Curtis Hamilton for Gardiner and Bozak.
Make sure the 1st is not protected and we have a deal.

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